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So Is Everyone Waiting for the 3rd Gen nMP?

S

sammyman

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Mar 21, 2005
998
64
I've been reading a lot on these forums to figure out my gameplan to move from my 2009 Mac Pro to a new setup for my wife's photography business.

I was reading up on the new Mac Pro's expected to be released in June (processors etc). From what I have read, one of the big problems with the upcoming Mac Pro is that it should not be capable of running a 5k monitor. Obviously this is in Apple's pipeline, but may not be introduced until the next revision of the nMP (3rd gen) in 2016 sometime. Also, it appears that the current nMP won't be able to use a 5k display.

Is this correct? And if so, is everyone with a 2009-2012 MP planning on entering the nMP market on the 3rd gen release?

If my Mac Pro dies before then, I'll probably buy a 5k iMac.
 
I'm not convinced that standalone displays are a high priority for Apple. The imac updated its design and display treatment. The thunderbolt display wasn't updated to match. If thunderbolt 3 is close, I think they would wait on that.
 
I have little confidence that Apple will rise to the occasion and offer something truly "great".

But they will have a watch to sell you.

Sad.
 
Third gen nMP???

When did the second generation happen? I thought the model identifier was still MacPro6,1? Am I missing something?

-SC
 
Apple is not focus on the Mac Pros, That is not there bread and butter. How many people walk into a apple store and buy a $3,000 mac pro and a monitor is not included? That is not going to satisfy wall street. iPhones and Watches will move units in the millions that is what is going to help there quarterly earnings..
 
If Apple implements Display Port 1.3 into USB-C for the Mac Pro then you will get 5K this year.
 
sammyman said:
I've been reading a lot on these forums to figure out my gameplan to move from my 2009 Mac Pro to a new setup for my wife's photography business.

I was reading up on the new Mac Pro's expected to be released in June (processors etc). From what I have read, one of the big problems with the upcoming Mac Pro is that it should not be capable of running a 5k monitor. Obviously this is in Apple's pipeline, but may not be introduced until the next revision of the nMP (3rd gen) in 2016 sometime. Also, it appears that the current nMP won't be able to use a 5k display.

Is this correct? And if so, is everyone with a 2009-2012 MP planning on entering the nMP market on the 3rd gen release?

If my Mac Pro dies before then, I'll probably buy a 5k iMac.
Click to expand...

First, there's no "expected" update in June. no one knows when it will be updated and it's all just speculation at this point. More uncertainty surrounds the upgrade cycle of the nMP because of its new design.

Secondly, why are you focused on 5k so much? is it really going to benefit you over what 4k provides?
 
sammyman said:
I was reading up on the new Mac Pro's expected to be released in June (processors etc). From what I have read, one of the big problems with the upcoming Mac Pro is that it should not be capable of running a 5k monitor. Obviously this is in Apple's pipeline, but may not be introduced until the next revision of the nMP (3rd gen) in 2016 sometime. Also, it appears that the current nMP won't be able to use a 5k display.
Click to expand...
Not true. Perhaps they were referring to 5K support using a single cable?

Someone reported that 5K works fine in Windows (Bootcamp) with new AMD drivers on the current nMP. The hardware does support 1 5K monitor, using 2 cables.

It should be just a matter of time before a driver that supports 5K in OS X is released.
 
sammyman said:
I've been reading a lot on these forums to figure out my gameplan to move from my 2009 Mac Pro to a new setup for my wife's photography business.

I was reading up on the new Mac Pro's expected to be released in June (processors etc). From what I have read, one of the big problems with the upcoming Mac Pro is that it should not be capable of running a 5k monitor. Obviously this is in Apple's pipeline, but may not be introduced until the next revision of the nMP (3rd gen) in 2016 sometime. Also, it appears that the current nMP won't be able to use a 5k display.

Is this correct? And if so, is everyone with a 2009-2012 MP planning on entering the nMP market on the 3rd gen release?
Click to expand...

I'm not - when you look at TCO (Total Cost of Ownership), the nMP has a number of factors going against it.

The first thing to realize is that the nMP is designed around OpenCL computing. If your workflow revolves around that it is a great machine; if it doesn't, then that 2nd GPU you are paying for will never be used. My workflow doesn't use OpenCL, nor will it use it in the future (The folks writing the software I use have looked at OpenCL and passed.). Even if everyone moved to it today, we are looking at 2-4 years for a workable solution. I wouldn't put money on Apple supporting OpenCL that long. Apple has a long history of quickly dropping items that they champion.

Then there is the gpu upgrade issue. If I want to move from my current ATI 5770, then I simply purchase a new card & away I go. With the nMP, I am stuck with the included GPU for the life-cycle of the machine. Unless I drop $300 - $500 on a helios thunderbolt enclosure.

The next consideration is the replacement of lost functionality. I have an external RAID 5 for my backup. The enclosure would have to be replaced with a thunderbolt enclosure. I have 7 internal HDs in my 4,1. I would also need multiple enclosures to hold them. Right now, that is $1200 in replacement costs (enclosures only). I would also need a dock to connect my peripherals. That is another $250. Then I would need an additional enclosure for my Blu-ray player (another $90).

I have dual monitors - as a minimum, I am buying more cables & running out of thunderbolt connections. (1 for backup enclosure, 1 for Data enclosure, 1 for iTunes enclosure, 1 for Blu-ray player, 1 for Dock, 1 for 2nd monitor = 1 free thunderbolt connection)

And with the release of that new USB connector, the writing is on the wall for thunderbolt. Yet another technological cul-de-sac.

Then there is the issue of thermal limitations. A number of folks have brought up the issue of throttling when pegging out the GPUs/CPUs. We don't have that problem with a cMP.

With a nMP, I would have a small cylinder surrounded by about a half dozen external enclosures, each with it's own power brick. At the end of the day, the nMP is the G4 Cube redux, and we all saw how that ended.

When it becomes time to replace my flashed 4,1 I am moving to a Boxx. I am not that welded to OSX.
 
ssgbryan said:
Then there is the issue of thermal limitations. A number of folks have brought up the issue of throttling when pegging out the GPUs/CPUs. We don't have that problem with a cMP.
Click to expand...

Really? I have literally not seen a single report of thermal throttling on the nMP.

The nMP might have a lot of limitations and compromises (whether real or imagined), but its thermal design is definitely not one of them.
 
ssgbryan said:
I'm not - when you look at TCO (Total Cost of Ownership), the nMP has a number of factors going against it.

The first thing to realize is that the nMP is designed around OpenCL computing. If your workflow revolves around that it is a great machine; if it doesn't, then that 2nd GPU you are paying for will never be used. My workflow doesn't use OpenCL, nor will it use it in the future (The folks writing the software I use have looked at OpenCL and passed.). Even if everyone moved to it today, we are looking at 2-4 years for a workable solution. I wouldn't put money on Apple supporting OpenCL that long. Apple has a long history of quickly dropping items that they champion.

Then there is the gpu upgrade issue. If I want to move from my current ATI 5770, then I simply purchase a new card & away I go. With the nMP, I am stuck with the included GPU for the life-cycle of the machine. Unless I drop $300 - $500 on a helios thunderbolt enclosure.

The next consideration is the replacement of lost functionality. I have an external RAID 5 for my backup. The enclosure would have to be replaced with a thunderbolt enclosure. I have 7 internal HDs in my 4,1. I would also need multiple enclosures to hold them. Right now, that is $1200 in replacement costs (enclosures only). I would also need a dock to connect my peripherals. That is another $250. Then I would need an additional enclosure for my Blu-ray player (another $90).

I have dual monitors - as a minimum, I am buying more cables & running out of thunderbolt connections. (1 for backup enclosure, 1 for Data enclosure, 1 for iTunes enclosure, 1 for Blu-ray player, 1 for Dock, 1 for 2nd monitor = 1 free thunderbolt connection)

And with the release of that new USB connector, the writing is on the wall for thunderbolt. Yet another technological cul-de-sac.

Then there is the issue of thermal limitations. A number of folks have brought up the issue of throttling when pegging out the GPUs/CPUs. We don't have that problem with a cMP.

With a nMP, I would have a small cylinder surrounded by about a half dozen external enclosures, each with it's own power brick. At the end of the day, the nMP is the G4 Cube redux, and we all saw how that ended.

When it becomes time to replace my flashed 4,1 I am moving to a Boxx. I am not that welded to OSX.
Click to expand...

Pretty much my thoughts to a tee. As for the thermal issues can you point to some of these folks you speak of?
 
ssgbryan said:
I have dual monitors - as a minimum, I am buying more cables & running out of thunderbolt connections. (1 for backup enclosure, 1 for Data enclosure, 1 for iTunes enclosure, 1 for Blu-ray player, 1 for Dock, 1 for 2nd monitor = 1 free thunderbolt connection)
Click to expand...

Each Thunderbolt port can accommodate six devices in a chain, therefore each professional TB device comes with two TB ports, that way you can connect the data HDD and the iTunes HDD and the Backup HDD to one TB port, the BluRay drive to USB 3 (as if there were a BluRay drive with TB with those slow read and write speeds), the Dock to the same first TB port and then the monitor to the second TB port and if you like the first monitor to the HDMI port, which gives you four free TB ports. Not that bad, except the cables of course.
Or you use USB 3.0 and a USB hub if RAID is not required by your external HDDs.
 
kfscoll said:
Really? I have literally not seen a single report of thermal throttling on the nMP.

The nMP might have a lot of limitations and compromises (whether real or imagined), but its thermal design is definitely not one of them.
Click to expand...

I would say they are "pre-throttled".

The 7970 "reference" clock was 925 Mhz at launch. This on the early, low yield wafers with leaky transistors.

By the time the nMP was announced the "Gigahertz Edition" was running at 1 Ghz.

When Apple started shipping them the core had been in production for 2 years already with much better yields. But to keep within the power & heat budget they turned the clock down to 850 Mhz as it's top speed.
 
kfscoll said:
The nMP might have a lot of limitations and compromises (whether real or imagined), but its thermal design is definitely not one of them.
Click to expand...

IMHO it's the biggest one. That's (as MVC said) why it got underclocked and undervolted GPUs and (presumably) only one CPU. I can imagine that triangle is far more perfect shape than a square, but couldn't the square be comparably efficient?
 
MacVidCards said:
I would say they are "pre-throttled".

The 7970 "reference" clock was 925 Mhz at launch. This on the early, low yield wafers with leaky transistors.

By the time the nMP was announced the "Gigahertz Edition" was running at 1 Ghz.

When Apple started shipping them the core had been in production for 2 years already with much better yields. But to keep within the power & heat budget they turned the clock down to 850 Mhz as it's top speed.
Click to expand...

IMHO it's the biggest one. That's (as MVC said) why it got underclocked and undervolted GPUs and (presumably) only one CPU. I can imagine that triangle is far more perfect shape than a square, but couldn't the square be comparably efficient?
Click to expand...

The consensus that was brought up by ssgbryan is that both the CPU & GPU is overheating, causing it to be throttled down. MVC only addressed his explanation for the GPU and not the CPU.

If the GPU is being "Pre-Throttled" it should not be overheating in the first place.

CPU's being throttled due to overheating is a problem on laptops and iMacs and not shown to be a problem on Mac Pros when running full speed.

The nMP greater performance over older Mac Pros are consistent with new improved technology.
 
Last edited:
linuxcooldude said:
The consensus that was brought up by ssgbryan is that both the CPU & GPU is overheating, causing it to be throttled down.
Click to expand...
Right and that's what I was driving at with my initial comment -- I've yet to see any reports of the CPU or GPUs in the nMP being throttled due to overheating.
 
h9826790 said:
nMP CPU thermal throttling under extreme condition.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7603/mac-pro-review-late-2013/14

It can happen, just not under normal situation.
Click to expand...

Interesting data though. The testing i like to see is during real world scenarios. i don't like to see short run benchmarks on workstations. But when AnandTech ran its normal testing scenarios, it found to run without throttling. He had to run a power virus to get those results, which you won't typically see in any normal workloads. So unless people run power viruses for a living, I think we don't have anything to worry about.
 
kfscoll said:
Right and that's what I was driving at with my initial comment -- I've yet to see any reports of the CPU or GPUs in the nMP being throttled due to overheating.
Click to expand...

....well yeah - the GPU won't throttle because Apple has already done so by under clocking the part from the factory.
 
I'm holding out for a new entry into the line: "The Mac", which is a little black tower with a single PCI-express x16 slot. Basically a mini ITX box with good cooling.

Barring that, I'll keep my cMP.
 
ssgbryan said:
I'm not - when you look at TCO (Total Cost of Ownership), the nMP has a number of factors going against it.

The first thing to realize is that the nMP is designed around OpenCL computing. If your workflow revolves around that it is a great machine; if it doesn't, then that 2nd GPU you are paying for will never be used. My workflow doesn't use OpenCL, nor will it use it in the future (The folks writing the software I use have looked at OpenCL and passed.). Even if everyone moved to it today, we are looking at 2-4 years for a workable solution. I wouldn't put money on Apple supporting OpenCL that long. Apple has a long history of quickly dropping items that they champion.

Then there is the gpu upgrade issue. If I want to move from my current ATI 5770, then I simply purchase a new card & away I go. With the nMP, I am stuck with the included GPU for the life-cycle of the machine. Unless I drop $300 - $500 on a helios thunderbolt enclosure.

The next consideration is the replacement of lost functionality. I have an external RAID 5 for my backup. The enclosure would have to be replaced with a thunderbolt enclosure. I have 7 internal HDs in my 4,1. I would also need multiple enclosures to hold them. Right now, that is $1200 in replacement costs (enclosures only). I would also need a dock to connect my peripherals. That is another $250. Then I would need an additional enclosure for my Blu-ray player (another $90).

I have dual monitors - as a minimum, I am buying more cables & running out of thunderbolt connections. (1 for backup enclosure, 1 for Data enclosure, 1 for iTunes enclosure, 1 for Blu-ray player, 1 for Dock, 1 for 2nd monitor = 1 free thunderbolt connection)

And with the release of that new USB connector, the writing is on the wall for thunderbolt. Yet another technological cul-de-sac.

Then there is the issue of thermal limitations. A number of folks have brought up the issue of throttling when pegging out the GPUs/CPUs. We don't have that problem with a cMP.

With a nMP, I would have a small cylinder surrounded by about a half dozen external enclosures, each with it's own power brick. At the end of the day, the nMP is the G4 Cube redux, and we all saw how that ended.

When it becomes time to replace my flashed 4,1 I am moving to a Boxx. I am not that welded to OSX.
Click to expand...

Distributed computing, whether admitted or not. Maybe not specifically in OpenCL, but at this point OpenCL is the most open way to implement this on GPUs, which are only going to get more and more important in heavy-duty work. Apple can't choose to "drop" an entire model that the industry is moving towards. Might as well say they'll drop support for keyboards and mice, although even that would make more sense. Fact is, it's just not going to happen. This is the future, this is how competing is going to get done in the future.

Sounds like you're not aware that you can daisy-chain with TB? You sure as hell don't have to have all these spinning disks attached to their own TB port, would definitely save you some ports.

----------
h9826790 said:
nMP CPU thermal throttling under extreme condition.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7603/mac-pro-review-late-2013/14

It can happen, just not under normal situation.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Of course, any computer will throttle itself in the right conditions, so as a general rule this isn't really surprising to anyone that's used a silicon-based machine :)
 
linuxcooldude said:
The consensus that was brought up by ssgbryan is that both the CPU & GPU is overheating, causing it to be throttled down. MVC only addressed his explanation for the GPU and not the CPU.

If the GPU is being "Pre-Throttled" it should not be overheating in the first place.

CPU's being throttled due to overheating is a problem on laptops and iMacs and not shown to be a problem on Mac Pros when running full speed.

The nMP greater performance over older Mac Pros are consistent with new improved technology.
Click to expand...

Barefeats has been unable to show nMP to be any faster than properly upgraded cMP.

As far as CPUs being throttled I don't know that it would be as easy to notice courtesy of the way speeds are rated now.

I spent 2 hours running Far Cry 4 at 4K 60hz on the base Mac Mini last night. Granted, much of the work was being done by the eGPU Titan-X but being rated at 1.4 Ghz you would not expect the Mini capable. But whereas in the past a CPU was rated for top speed and would downclock as heat built up, now they have weasel-room in the ratings which is called "Boost" or "Turbo" mode. So my Mini was really running faster than 1.4 but has the ability to downclocked to 1.4 and nobody can call it "throttling" since it was only rated for 1.4 to begin with.

So, semantics and marketing have changed a limitation into a feature.

Interestingly, if you compare the Techpowerupgpu pages for D700, 7970, and R9 280 you will see same new "feature" on the R9. It has a speed of 850 like D700 but then it has a "Boost" mode of 1000. So when it downclocks to 850 to avoid thermal meltdown it isn't "throttling", it's using "Boost".

I need to log my CPU speeds on Mini to show this better.
 
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