Some level-headed thoughts on the new MBP

[maflynn]

Here's my $.02, while you call out people for their knee jerk reactions, what you post is about the same type of stuff.

Keyboard
As someone who types in the realm of 100-130wpm depending on the keyboard, the decrease in travel was jarring initially.

I agree, the keyboard for me is probably the weakest link and pretty close to being a show stopper right off the bat.

Trackpad
The larger trackpad makes four finger gestures a lot more comfortable. I don't know how it compares to the Force Touch trackpad in the 2015 models, but compared to the mechanical trackpad in my old Pro, the click is a lot "tighter" and quieter. I

I thought I was going to hate the force touch because of my prior experience but it seems decent enough, though as you mention it is "tighter" I can see myself getting used to this feature. I don't get why they needed it, I would think the iMac would be thinner without needing to a motor inside to simulate a track pad feedback. Why not use a real track pad and have more room to make the MBP thinner.

Touch Bar and Touch ID
Touch ID is an easy one. It's a second gen sensor, quick as hell, exactly what we're used to from iOS. But no one was arguing about that.

I've only heard positives from the Touch ID, though I do question the viability of TB. I'm not sold on it being more then a gimmick. I could be proven wrong, and if apple rolls this out on other computers and keyboards, that will go a long way to getting developers to embrace it.

 

[Ma2k5]

F keys have pretty much always been a variable function row. For likely 99% of Mac users they have done little more than act as media and brightness controls for many years because most users aren't going to remember what those keys map to behind the scenes in other programs. So for the vast majority of users, changing that row to something that can be dynamically changed to better support whatever app is currently being used makes a lot of sense. The number of people who can touch type all F keys reliably is probably well under 1%.

I suspect that in the long run, after a new generation of developers grow up having used computers with keys that are actually labeled for the functions they provide will look back and laugh at how long we held on to these relics where you had to memorize key mappings that changed with every program you used.

I am all for dynamic keys, but right now, physical keys feel better. If the new touch bar was actually individual keys which dynamically changed based on applications, I would have had no issues whatsoever. My issue is with it just being a strip (and a very thin strip at that, not replicating a key), which is flat with no feedback, is my issue. I have never complained about it changing dynamically. This is why I believe the e-ink solution might be what takes over the industry in th coming years, comfort of the physical keys combined with the versatility of the touch bar.

Also your notion that Developers need to grow up is very immature and shows how uninformed you are.

 

[malikkamran]

What battery life you get

 

[zhenya]

Also your notion that Developers need to grow up is very immature and shows how uninformed you are.

I would read that sentence again. There is nothing immature implied there.

 

[justyncuk]

Better than my 2012. I can get to 10 hours wireless web at ~80% brightness easily, think I managed over 11 hours two days ago. It also seems to lose less charge on sleep. Haven't given the battery a go with more intensive tasks yet though.

Brilliant, that gives me confidence that it should last more than the 80min my late 2008 MBP lasts at the moment.....

 

[Ma2k5]

I would read that sentence again. There is nothing immature implied there.

Fair enough.

 

[Mr. Bean]

What is this? A thread where people have level-headed discussions about the new MBPs instead of getting emotional? This is so rare it's almost mythical

Jokes aside, I just want to throw my 2 cents out there regarding the new models.

Apple has always prided itself on making its products as accessible as possible to a wide range of consumers. Yes, I understand the irony, given the high price tags for its products so no need to go there. That's the way Apple has always been. Anyway, regarding the touch bar many have dismissed it as a gimmick, and rightly so, because they have not found any use in it. On the other hand, imagine if you cannot touch-type or that you are a slow typer, for whatever reason. Would you say that the text suggestions appearing on the touch bar might possibly be beneficial for you? If you cannot touch type or are a slow typer, chances are, you'd be looking at your keyboard most of the time instead of looking at the screen, so the suggestions appearing where they do on the touch bar might be quite useful.

This is only an example just to illustrate the point regarding the touch bar. Instead of being negative, let's just give it time and see how it goes. Personally, I do not think that the touch bar would benefit me in any way (I could be wrong in the future), but for now there's no loss for me either in not having the physical function keys. I'm well aware that some lament the loss of the physical function keys because they've been relying on them for so long, but at the end of the day, Apple has made a business decision, and as a consumer you have a choice. If this decision turns out to be the start of the downfall of Apple, then so be it. There will be something else that rises up to fill the void. Afterall, necessity is the mother of invention.

Speaking of which, has anybody looked at the "Accessibility" category in the online Apple Store? I've only discovered it for the first time a few days ago and found it rather intriguing.

 

[msh]

After having tried one out in the Apple store I can live with the new features. However, the one thing that really bothers me - not only with this new version but the the previous one as well - is the soldered in SSD and ram. Here I am still using an early '08 MBP and it is still working well for internet, email and even running WIN7 in a VM. Why? Because I have been able to upgrade the HDD to an SSD (twice) and increase the ram.

So Apple, by making the machine unupgradeable, has increased the cost of the machine (need to max out at initial purchase) and shortened its useful life. I think Apple wants to make all their machines into disposable appliances like the iPhone to increase profitability. That is in their interest but not mine so I will resist where I can.

 

[kingjames1970]

MF878,

Thank you for providing one of the most enjoyable reads I've had on here in months. Actually, this belongs in the Top 10 of the Year. I thought you wrote this very well and your thinking is spot-on.

Bravo!

Hear hear!

 

[msh]

As a corollary to my upgradeability comment, can someone tell me why Apple and laptop manufacturers couldn't put the dGPU chips on a plug-in card specifically designed for notebooks? Is it heat, power efficiency? Seems like it would eliminate the issues with dGPU's and provide more choice.

 

[maflynn]

Apple and laptop manufacturers couldn't put the dGPU chips on a plug-in card?

They could and back in the day it was on a daughter card, at least for PCs, I think the GPU was always soldered onto the logic board for mac laptops.

The issue of a daughter card, is that it requires more space then being soldered onto the logic board, so that's probably on emajor reason, another is the fact that there's no market to upgrade the GPU so why bother.

 

[zhenya]

After having tried one out in the Apple store I can live with the new features. However, the one thing that really bothers me - not only with this new version but the the previous one as well - is the soldered in SSD and ram. Here I am still using an early '08 MBP and it is still working well for internet, email and even running WIN7 in a VM. Why? Because I have been able to upgrade the HDD to an SSD (twice) and increase the ram.

So Apple, by making the machine unupgradeable, has increased the cost of the machine (need to max out at initial purchase) and shortened its useful life. I think Apple wants to make all their machines into disposable appliances like the iPhone to increase profitability. That is in their interest but not mine so I will resist where I can.

Well, to some extent, the days of most people wanting to upgrade their laptops is over. Even in 2008 we were still in the period where laptop tech was advancing so fast that there were real, concrete upgrades to be made in the course of just a couple of years. RAM prices were falling rapidly, SSD's were just becoming available, etc. Since then though, the pace of development has leveled off greatly. I used to upgrade most of our laptops we buy for our users at some point during their lifespan, but even with our Thinkpads, which are still largely upgradeable, that never really happens anymore. RAM needs have largely leveled off for most users, and as long as we put a 512GB SSD in there from the start, it is extremely rare that someone legitimately needs more space than that. We just don't upgrade laptops like we used to - so long as we buy proper specs to begin with.

 

[Pootmatoot]

As a corollary to my upgradeability comment, can someone tell me why Apple and laptop manufacturers couldn't put the dGPU chips on a plug-in card specifically designed for notebooks? Is it heat, power efficiency? Seems like it would eliminate the issues with dGPU's and provide more choice.

Because they radically change the thermals. Putting in the next-gen dGPU into a laptop will likely burn out: the entire chassis and airflow is built around it.

You can do it in a desktop because it's not on such a knife edge.

 

[Ma2k5]

Well, to some extent, the days of most people wanting to upgrade their laptops is over. Even in 2008 we were still in the period where laptop tech was advancing so fast that there were real, concrete upgrades to be made in the course of just a couple of years. RAM prices were falling rapidly, SSD's were just becoming available, etc. Since then though, the pace of development has leveled off greatly. I used to upgrade most of our laptops we buy for our users at some point during their lifespan, but even with our Thinkpads, which are still largely upgradeable, that never really happens anymore. RAM needs have largely leveled off for most users, and as long as we put a 512GB SSD in there from the start, it is extremely rare that someone legitimately needs more space than that. We just don't upgrade laptops like we used to - so long as we buy proper specs to begin with.

I think what his point was more to do with - stripping the customer off the option to upgrade while charging more for that same product, relatively speaking.

 

[Macalway]

Well, to some extent, the days of most people wanting to upgrade their laptops is over.

I guess this is true, and probably is the source of all the confusion and gripping. Just subtle design changes and increased portability, with something like the touch bar being nice, but essentially useless.

It's a lot of money for very little change. Having said that, these things are beautiful in themselves. Very desirable luxury items. If you have the means.

 

[H1Supreme]

I am all for dynamic keys, but right now, physical keys feel better. If the new touch bar was actually individual keys which dynamically changed based on applications, I would have had no issues whatsoever.

I agree completely. An e-ink function key row + an ACTUAL TOUCH SCREEN would have been something more revolutionary. I don't care what Apple says, touch screens are a good idea if that's your thing. Especially on a laptop. Laptops are usually used close to you and touching the screen is no problem. And, if they're docked far away from you, it's going to equally as hard to use the touchbar. Furthermore, all the artists that Microsoft is catering too with their Surfacebook, would love a Wacom quality touchscreen on a MBP.

The ONLY reason Apple doesn't have a full touchscreen is because it would cut into their iPad sales. They can feed us whatever bullcrap line they want. We know better. The touchbar is a more gimmick than useful, no matter how you slice it up.

 

[zhenya]

I think what his point was more to do with - stripping the customer off the option to upgrade while charging more for that same product, relatively speaking.

Perhaps, but it's not like Apple's prices for the most common upgrades are wholly out of line. $200 for RAM and $200 to bump the SSD up to 512GB is pretty similar to what most PC manufacturer's charge on their high-end machines. It's only those who want to go to 1TB+ that start to feel the real sting, and that's a relatively small proportion of users.
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I agree completely. An e-ink function key row + an ACTUAL TOUCH SCREEN would have been something more revolutionary. I don't care what Apple says, touch screens are a good idea if that's your thing. Especially on a laptop. Laptops are usually used close to you and touching the screen is no problem. And, if they're docked far away from you, it's going to equally as hard to use the touchbar. Furthermore, all the artists that Microsoft is catering too with their Surfacebook, would love a Wacom quality touchscreen on a MBP.

The ONLY reason Apple doesn't have a full touchscreen is because it would cut into their iPad sales. They can feed us whatever bullcrap line they want. We know better. The touchbar is a more gimmick than useful, no matter how you slice it up.

I have a touch screen laptop and honestly I don't ever find it useful in even the slightest way. As a die-hard iPad user I also fail to see how a touch screen laptop in any way would compete with an iPad. They aren't even remotely the same thing.

 

[ipponrg]

The ONLY reason Apple doesn't have a full touchscreen is because it would cut into their iPad sales. They can feed us whatever bullcrap line they want. We know better. The touchbar is a more gimmick than useful, no matter how you slice it up.

Not sure if that is the only reason. I find having a track pad and a touch screen to be superfluous.

 

[bjjp2]

Anyone who thinks Apple is doing this to try and make money off adapters makes me laugh, their adapter revenue is probably about as much as an accounting error for them.

Exactly. Then why not include an adapter or two in the box?

 

[JohnnyGo]

For "Pros", give me a break. I'm going to break this down using easy numbers and easy math. Let's say you're a "Pro" - i.e. you use your Mac as a professional work tool to earn a living. So, you spend $3,600 on a tricked out MBP (and then rush here to whine about how it should be $600 cheaper). You plan to have this laptop for 3 years (36 months) (and then rush here to whine about how it should last at least 5-7 years).

That's $100/month for the machine that you're going to use to make a living. Obviously I can't speak for the world - I know there are places where that's a lot of money. Imagine the number of people who spend a $100 a month on lattes. Imagine the number of people who spend a $100/month on cable tv and movies and entertainment. But for all these "Pros" who can't afford a $100/month for the tool that is central to their business?

+1

BTW that's $100 pre-tax. No deduction for lattes but a PRO can surely deduct a computer purchase every other year.

 

[JohnnyGo]

This is where you stopped being level-headed. A bit arrogant/ignorant to make out that the touch bar is a definite upgrade for everyone isn't it?

I disagree. He mentions "at any price level".

Same issue with retina displays: are they a must upgrade? No. Still, at the same price of non retina / regular displays, they are a definite / must have upgrade.

At much lower prices it's a totally different answer.

 

[kevinkyoo]

Well, to some extent, the days of most people wanting to upgrade their laptops is over. Even in 2008 we were still in the period where laptop tech was advancing so fast that there were real, concrete upgrades to be made in the course of just a couple of years. RAM prices were falling rapidly, SSD's were just becoming available, etc. Since then though, the pace of development has leveled off greatly. I used to upgrade most of our laptops we buy for our users at some point during their lifespan, but even with our Thinkpads, which are still largely upgradeable, that never really happens anymore. RAM needs have largely leveled off for most users, and as long as we put a 512GB SSD in there from the start, it is extremely rare that someone legitimately needs more space than that. We just don't upgrade laptops like we used to - so long as we buy proper specs to begin with.

I disagree. With the newer Mac products, yes, this desire is waning, but that's because there was no option to upgrade in the first place. You still have people wanting to upgrade their 2012 cMBP's with more RAM and more storage. For the MacBook Airs, it's always been a case of replacing the battery, and even SSD's (Though proprietary).

And that's just on the Mac side. On Windows, unless it's an ultrabook, people expect to be able to replace the RAM sticks or SSD's. It's not rocket science anymore - anyone can now open up the bottom of the laptops, and replace that 4GB with 8GB, or that 128GB with 512GB of SSD. I agree that if you have 512GB at the start, your desire to want more is much less likely. However, I bought a 128GB Macbook Air, and am looking to purchase a 512GB SSD later down the line. Why? Well, because there was a really nice deal for the base model, and I didn't have the money for the upgraded storage.

So yes, if you have enough money to pay upfront for the "proper" specs, then upgrading will wane. But there are much more people than you're assuming who buy a "base-line" laptop, and upgrade it down the line.

This is not even considering the possibility of any failing parts - whether that be the RAM or the storage. Is it very unlikely? Yes. But if a device had its SSD not working properly, I can simply open up that machine and swap out the RAM. If that were to happen to any one of these more recent Macbooks, I would have to pay for the entire logic board (Which includes the CPU, RAM, SSD, and GPU), making it financially ridiculous.

For ultrabooks, there is a place for a lack of upgrade for the sacrifice for thinness. But for the more broader market? Hardly.

 

[jerryk]

After seeing Lisa's review on MobileTech Review and trying one out at the Apple store. I am passing this model and will check after the refresh.

I currently have a 2015 15" with 512 GB and dGPU and did not see much, other than the size decrease that interested me. The screen is definitely brighter, but the 2015's screen is still excellent. Booting performance and application launch might be faster, but I really could not tell. Since the 2015 has the fast 1.5GB/sec SSD this is not too surprising. I like the USB-C/TB-3 ports, but in a year support for those will be better. And I prefer the old fixed function keys.

Overall it was kind of a Meh for me.
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+1

BTW that's $100 pre-tax. No deduction for lattes but a PRO can surely deduct a computer purchase every other year.

Not sure about why one would wait a year. You can deduct the entire cost of the laptop, and a lot more in a single year. And if you know what you are doing you can deduct the cost of lattes.

 

[jackoatmon]

the funniest is people who have a 1-year-old laptop saying this is "meh"

well no duh

you just bought a new laptop

of course you don't need another one !

 

[msh]

They could and back in the day it was on a daughter card, at least for PCs, I think the GPU was always soldered onto the logic board for mac laptops.

The issue of a daughter card, is that it requires more space then being soldered onto the logic board, so that's probably on emajor reason, another is the fact that there's no market to upgrade the GPU so why bother.

My desire was not really for an upgrade but to separate the existing dGPU from the logic board to facilitate replacement when problems occur as they so frequently do. I look at how small SSD PCIe's are now and wondered why you couldn't do that with GPUs.