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I think it's a slippery slope though when/if Apple can dictate what content is allowed in an app. I see no reason why Spotify or any developer can't promote alternative ways to pay for a subscription to their app WITHIN their app. I'm not advocating for a link.

Here's where it gets tricky. They won't allow that - but would allow in-app advertising, right? So, Spotify could target in-app ads that promoted a way to subscribe via the web. And those ads could be served in the spotify app, right?

It's really no different.
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Sorry - what was your answer?

How is ordering a pizza different than an in-app purchase in a game? Or renewing a subscription?

This is the seventh time I am answering your question.

You don't consume a pizza on your iphone but you consume your spotify on iphone. And using an iphone has its terms and conditions, just like other phones and other products. If you use spotify on an iphone, YOU accept Apple's terms and conditions. If Spotify choose to upload on App Store, Spotify accepts Apple's terms and conditions.

Apple's terms and conditions - whether competitive or uncompetitive - the courts will be decide.

If you think Apple's terms and conditions are unfair, don't use the App Store and don't use iPhone.
If developers think Apple's terms and conditions are unfair, don't upload on App Store.

YOU have a choice.

Like many people here have responded, Spotify wants to have Apple's cake, the publishers cake and everyone's cake and eat it. They want to shortchange the composers, they want Apple to be play fair, etc etc. Why? They want to maximise their own revenue and profits. Stop being so idealistic that Spotify is the saint here when they have the same motives as Apple.

The difference is Spotify wants everything but stop short of looking at their (trashy) business model.
 
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This is the seventh time I am answering your question.

You don't consume a pizza on your iphone but you consume your spotify on iphone. And using an iphone has its terms and conditions, just like other phones and other products. If you use spotify on an iphone, YOU accept Apple's terms and conditions. If Spotify choose to upload on App Store, Spotify accepts Apple's terms and conditions.

Apple's terms and conditions - whether competitive or uncompetitive - the courts will be decide.

If you think Apple's terms and conditions are unfair, don't use the App Store and don't use iPhone.
If developers think Apple's terms and conditions are unfair, don't upload on App Store.

YOU have a choice.

All other os' allow devs to sell directly to the user except game consoles (digital sales)
 
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30% is way too high. Should be max 10% (2% for processing, 8% for store etc). It's not like a Walmart that has a physical store and who has to pay for land, stocking etc.
 
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This is the seventh time I am answering your question.

You don't consume a pizza on your iphone but you consume your spotify on iphone. And using an iphone has its terms and conditions, just like other phones and other products. If you use spotify on an iphone, YOU accept Apple's terms and conditions. If Spotify choose to upload on App Store, Spotify accepts Apple's terms and conditions.

Apple's terms and conditions - whether competitive or uncompetitive - the courts will be decide.

If you think Apple's terms and conditions are unfair, don't use the App Store and don't use iPhone.
If developers think Apple's terms and conditions are unfair, don't upload on App Store.

YOU have a choice.

It's not about whether you have a choice or not, but rather should apple be actually allowed to dictate what happens in the app to this extent. Whether this comes from agreeing to terms and conditions is irrelevant.
 
Would you find it fair if Windows took a 30% share on everything you bought while using a windows computer ?
No.

That'e what I thought.



I thought MS does have a Windows app store that takes 30% and reduced to 20% after the developer his $25k.
I'm not sure if it includes subscription based billing... but the general take is if their store billing system is being used I'd assume there is some kind of (%) fee associated with it.

.
 
This is the seventh time I am answering your question.

You don't consume a pizza on your iphone but you consume your spotify on iphone. And using an iphone has its terms and conditions, just like other phones and other products. If you use spotify on an iphone, YOU accept Apple's terms and conditions. If Spotify choose to upload on App Store, Spotify accepts Apple's terms and conditions.

Apple's terms and conditions - whether competitive or uncompetitive - the courts will be decide.

If you think Apple's terms and conditions are unfair, don't use the App Store and don't use iPhone.
If developers think Apple's terms and conditions are unfair, don't upload on App Store.

YOU have a choice.

You haven't answered the question really. Because there's no difference. Who cares that I don't consume a pizza ON my phone. Why does Apple differentiate? Could it be because they don't offer pizza or uber rides? If that's the case - if they only have a set of rules for those parties who are competitors - then perhaps they are being just slightly anti-competitive, no?

Stop suggesting I quit iPhone because I don't like one thing or the other. I don't polarize my decisions so easily as you or others might.
 
This is the seventh time I am answering your question.

You don't consume a pizza on your iphone but you consume your spotify on iphone. And using an iphone has its terms and conditions, just like other phones and other products. If you use spotify on an iphone, YOU accept Apple's terms and conditions. If Spotify choose to upload on App Store, Spotify accepts Apple's terms and conditions.

Apple's terms and conditions - whether competitive or uncompetitive - the courts will be decide.

If you think Apple's terms and conditions are unfair, don't use the App Store and don't use iPhone.
If developers think Apple's terms and conditions are unfair, don't upload on App Store.

YOU have a choice.

I go away for a couple hours and this **** show it still going on? Why is this hard for people to understand? It's Apples store and their terms. Don't like it - go sell your wares somewhere else. As I stated in the other thread, Spotify can make a mobile web page for iOS users to visit in Safari and stream their music that way. Then they get 100% of the subscription fees, and since they don't have an App in The App Store, they aren't bound by any of Apples conditions. Seems pretty easy to me.

Oh, but then there's that one small benefit of having half a BILLION users that might sign up for your service because of how easy it is when it's an App and not a website.
 
It's not about whether you have a choice or not, but rather should apple be actually allowed to dictate what happens in the app to this extent. Whether this comes from agreeing to terms and conditions is irrelevant.

Why not? They develop their devices. They set the terms and conditions for you to use their devices. Either you accept it or reject it.
 
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I'm talking about the App Store infrastructure, and if you think a $99 developer fee covers the cost for that, then I have a bridge to sell you. I know the service itself is via Spotify's servers.

Are you OK with maintaining a store, paying for all the costs to keep it running, and then letting everyone sell their apps for free, and subsequently selling subscriptions outside so that that you effectively make NOTHING. Clueless...

https://techcrunch.com/2014/06/02/i...n-apps-has-seen-75-billion-downloads-to-date/

Since 2014, Apple has 9 million developers. 9 million x $99 yearly fee = $891 million per year. I'm sure $891 million can cover the cost of maintaining the app store.
 
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All other os' allow devs to sell directly to the user except game consoles (digital sales)

Who cares what other stores do? Go and sell on Google Play or Windows Mobile and see how much your revenues plummet from not being on the worlds most successful mobile platform.
 
I thought MS does have a Windows app store that takes 30% and reduced to 20% after the developer his $25k.
I'm not sure if it includes subscription based billing... but the general take is if their store billing system is being used I'd assume there is some kind of (%) fee associated with it.

.

Devs can still sell their software without the store though. On iOS it's app store or nothing
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Who cares what other stores do? Go and sell on Google Play or Windows Mobile and see how much your revenues plummet from not being on the worlds most successful mobile platform.

Exactly, they have a monopoly on profits and should be regulated like one.

That style of control is unprecedented
 
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Can anyone in this thread please explain to me how prohibiting app developers from linking to their own subscription pages within their own applications is not the definition of anti competitive?

Because you can get to it from your device using Safari or Chrome?
 
I thought MS does have a Windows app store that takes 30% and reduced to 20% after the developer his $25k.
I'm not sure if it includes subscription based billing... but the general take is if their store billing system is being used I'd assume there is some kind of (%) fee associated with it.

.
There is fees. There's also fees for subscription.
However, they don't simply refuse your app if you decide not to use their system. Which is the whole problem with Apple.
 
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You haven't answered the question really. Because there's no difference. Who cares that I don't consume a pizza ON my phone. Why does Apple differentiate? Could it be because they don't offer pizza or uber rides? If that's the case - if they only have a set of rules for those parties who are competitors - then perhaps they are being just slightly anti-competitive, no?

Stop suggesting I quit iPhone because I don't like one thing or the other. I don't polarize my decisions so easily as you or others might.

It is true. I don't eat mcdonalds because they use palm oil in my country. I have a choice as a consumer.

I have already answered your question. Who cares that I don't consume a pizza ON my phone - Apple cares. Why does Apple differentiate? Because you are using their iphone and accept their terms and conditions Anti-competitive, no? That's for the courts to decide

Quit using iPhone. Then you won't be bothered by the less than ideal world.

Like many people here have responded, Spotify wants to have Apple's cake, the publishers cake and everyone's cake and eat it. They want to shortchange the composers, they want Apple to be play fair, etc etc. Why? They want to maximise their own revenue and profits. Stop being so idealistic that Spotify is the saint here when they have the same motives as Apple.

The difference is Spotify wants everything but stop short of looking at their (trashy) business model.
 
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https://techcrunch.com/2014/06/02/i...n-apps-has-seen-75-billion-downloads-to-date/

Since 2014, Apple has 9 million developers. 9 million x $99 yearly fee = $891 million per year. I'm sure $891 million can cover the cost of maintaining the app store.

Your username is "macfacts" yet you can't bring any actual facts to the table? Sorry, but those 9 million developers aren't paying $99 a year. Anyone can "register" to be a developer without paying, and get access to Xcode and start developing Apps. Only if you want to publish them on The App Store do you need to pay $99 a year. And considering the number of Apps actually in The App Store it's pretty obvious most of those developers are the free ones who are just playing around with Xcode. Unless you think it takes 9 registered developers to create a single App.
 
Really? What if Samsung said to Comcast "We want 30% of your subscription money to show your TV shows on our TV sets". Would you have the same opinion?

The analogy would only work if Samsung were providing television services and Comcast was offering competing services for Samsung TVs.

But you knew this. Being disingenuous helps no one.
 
Understandable, but I would make two points:

1. There are other platforms in Android and Windows phone.

2. I realize that Apple could theoretically allow other app stores, app downloads from the web, etc. The Apple App store doesn't have to be the only place we get our iPhone software. That said, as an Apple customer I actually believe in and pay for that closed off system. I want Apple to vet the software. This has largely gotten rid of junk and viruses in the mobile era. I'm glad that I have yet to download an app that sends my credit card to scammers in another country. I don't want to get into a debate about iOS being immune. I'm not saying that. I am saying that I appreciate the quality the App store has brought to the apps themselves and the discovery process.
It's not about platform choice (and Windows does the same thing). It's the fact that one cannot load what they want to on iOS. And they are forced to go through Apple.

Imagine you buy a house. That house was built by Apple. In order to make any changes to said house you need to go through Apple's contractors. Obviously wouldn't fly right. But that's basically what is happening here.

I understand your security statement and agree with it but that has no bearing on whether behavior is anticompetitive or not. Security also isn't the reason why Apple is throwing up the yellow card here.

I'm just puzzled it took this long for anyone prominent to "say" anything.
 
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It is true. I don't eat mcdonalds because they use palm oil in my country. I have a choice as a consumer.

I have already answered your question. Who cares that I don't consume a pizza ON my phone - Apple cares. Why does Apple differentiate? Because you are using their iphone and accept their terms and conditions Anti-competitive, no? That's for the courts to decide

Quit using iPhone. Then you won't be bothered by the less than ideal world.

Like many people here have responded, Spotify wants to have Apple's cake, the publishers cake and everyone's cake and eat it. They want to shortchange the composers, they want Apple to be play fair, etc etc. Why? They want to maximise their own revenue and profits. Stop being so idealistic that Spotify is the saint here when they have the same motives as Apple.

The difference is Spotify wants everything but stop short of looking at their (trashy) business model.

So I defer back to the original argument point in that the app store has inconsistent policies.
 
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(Should one) find it fair if Windows took a 30% share on everything you bought while using a windows computer?
.

If I bought everything from the Microsoft store, I would at least be understanding of why they were taking a 30% cut of each sale, even if I thought that amount was excessive (which I might, depending on what I was buying).
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That's entirely irrelevant to the app developer's ability to link to their own subscription page.

Why is it irrelevant? The developer has the ability for their customers to link to their subscription page on the device. It's not as convenient as having it in the app itself, but it's not as inconvenient as having to go to another device.

Spotify themselves use this now, as do Amazon, Comixology, Adobe, Microsoft and I am sure a number of others in order to bypass paying the fee to Apple.

And that is why Spotify has to try this complaint in the Court of Public Opinion rather than a Federal District Court.
 
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It's not about platform choice (and Windows does the same thing). It's the fact that one cannot load what they want to on iOS. And they are forced to go through Apple.

Imagine you buy a house. That house was built by Apple. In order to make any changes to said house you need to go through Apple's contractors. Obviously wouldn't fly right. But that's basically what is happening here.

I understand your security statement and agree with it but that has no bearing on whether behavior is anticompetitive or not. Security also isn't the reason why Apple is throwing up the yellow card here.

I'm just puzzled it took this long for anyone prominent to "say" anything.

Lots of people have been saying something. They just haven't gotten anywhere. Spotify has brought this issue up in public several times (mainly because they're whiners and know they can't do anything about it, so they cry like babies to anyone who will listen and print their story).

A few years ago it was the magazines and newspapers complaining about the subscription fees. But unlike Spotify, they were even MORE entitled. Not only did they want customers to be able to sign up using their own web page (instead of through Apple), but they wanted Apple to forward your payment information (including your credit card) so that the customer wouldn't have to enter it in again at the publishers website. Think about that for a minute, and how utterly ridiculous that is.

Regardless of who does the whining, the terms & conditions at Apple stay the same. Because it's Apples store and they can set terms as the see fit.
 
This is an overly simplistic view. We're not talking about physical stores and inventories here nor are we talking about a perfect uniform widget.

To indulge you though:
  • tenant pays no rent to the property owner in this scenario if they make no sales directly from the property (Spotify is a free app with a free ad-supported tier in which case Spotify pays nothing to Apple)
  • tenant can still leverage the "traffic" from the property owner's mall to promote its services (Spotify is able to reach its customers via the App Store even with the free app and free tier, placement in rankings becomes a source of lead generation for them without any fee per lead)
  • tenant is able to sell widgets elsewhere and then have their customers bring them into the mall to enjoy without any charge (Spotify can still sell subscriptions to its service outside of IAP without any decrease in experience of the service)
  • tenant had its widget factory subsidized by the property owner (Spotify was able to leverage Apple's development stack to create their app and the OS on which it runs)
  • property owners cost to operate their own "rent free" store is equal to the rent they are charging the tenant so at a $0.75 profit they also had $0.75 in costs for facility upkeep and management effectively bringing their profit to $0 (Apple's App Store is a zero sum unit, the revenue brought in from App Store fees is equal to the costs Apple incurs in running App Store*).
Apple has not violated any laws and is not operating in an unethical manner. Sure, Spotify wants to be able to use Apple's distribution channel without paying for it, who wouldn't, they won't gain any (more**) ground here though.

Flip this around though, let's take a look at two direct scenarios though (directly, not using weak metaphors)

1) Apple drops all fees on subscription in app purchases. The next day every App becomes SaaS (software as a service). Now you can pay for my $1.99 Kardashian themed voter guide in 12 easy monthly installments and Apple doesn't see a dime from App Store (but still has to shoulder significant costs of infrastructure).
2) Apple allows redirects from App Store to external subscription pages. Again, everything goes SaaS with a simple link to purchase from the developer's web site. Again, Apple continues to incur all costs while losing the revenue stream that supports the process.

This wouldn't be universal, there would continue to be companies that do the right thing and sell their apps in the traditional method but there would likely be enough people trying to game the system to have a real impact on the viability of the App Store and none of us want App Store to die. The method Apple has suggested of dropping fees in year two and beyond is a good compromise. It prevents the scenarios above while recognizing that Apple's costs follow a sliding scale with time for subscription services. There are still costs in year two and beyond (any App that's going to hold a subscription audience is going to receive updates and still occupies storage, takes processing overhead, requires bandwidth for delivery, audits of updates, share of the costs of continued development of App Store platform etc...) but are likely disproportionate to perpetual license scenarios.

* In aggregate although I realize the sources of those costs and revenue are not evenly distributed. I also see Apple's revised year 2+ subscription model as being a response to those discrepancies.
** given that Apple has already dropped fees on subsequent years of subscription.

This is a great reply, thank you. I agree with many of the points you made. I want to reiterate a few things though that change the analysis:

Apple and Google are pretty much the only way to distribute software on mobile devices, the terms they have are nearly identical, and changes are often in lockstep. It's effectively a duopoly, and they wield this duopoly power to force out competitors in other markets - that is indeed illegal.

In your 2 scenarios, there is also the option that Apple must play by it's own rules - account for and pay itself the 30% fee (maybe separate out App Store as a distinct business unit, and allow Spotify equal integration into iOS. As I said above, the issue is Apple is flexing their mobile marketplace muscle to force out a competitor in the music streaming market.

The other issue is that Apple can effectively use the App Store and developers as a cost-free test for future services. As soon as a third-party app is about to reach critical mass: Apple can copy the idea, integrate it into iOS, and offer the services on terms that the original developer cannot possibly compete with. They can do this over and over again, where the developers take all the risk and invest all the resources and growing the idea, and Apple merely inserts themselves when it is most profitable to do so.
 
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