Spotify and Apple Again Clash Over App Store Rules and Fees

[sw1tcher]

If Apple designed and built a shopping mall, should vendors expect to be able to set up shop in that mall rent-free? Despite Apple being on the hook for maintenance, security, insurance, etc?

Every single develper pays Apple an annual Developer's Fee. Every. Single. One.

That's their rent.

It's not enough? Why then is it enough when it comes to other companies such as McDonald's, Starbucks, Uber, Amazon, Netflix, Target, Walmart, etc.?

But let's go back to your shopping mall example.... Does the shopping mall owner get a cut of each retailers sale? No.

If I go to a store in the shopping mall to browse but don't buy anything for some reason (e.g. wanted to mull it over, didn't have my size, no actual inventory) until I got home and ordered it online, does the shopping mall owner get a cut of that online sale? No. But Apple thinks it should.

 

[sw1tcher]

Because it appears Spotify is wanting to link to outside payment option using Apple's services.

Right now Spotify informs subscribers "You can't upgrade to Premium in the app" so subscribers have to manually go to spotify.com to upgrade from Free plan. Apple gets $0.00 using this method.

But if Spotify were to put a link in the app instead of the above message, that'll cost them 27 percent of subscription revenue. For a link? WTF?

 

[jjwwqq]

27% instead of 30%. That’s an AMAZING discount.

 

[lkrupp]

And this will go on and on....

there is so much money involved...

and in the meantime subscription services continue to increase prices... they are a huge cash cow...

Be careful, as before you know it... you're spending upwards of 50 dollars per month on things you may not use often.

And then will come the great reckoning and massive fallout of profits. Cord cutting was supposed to be the future. Well, now the future is looking more an more expensive every day. This happened with software subscriptions and it’s coming to tv and music.

 

[Fuzzball84]

And then will come the great reckoning and massive fallout of profits. Cord cutting was supposed to be the future. Well, now the future is looking more an more expensive every day. This happened with software subscriptions and it’s coming to tv and music.

Its funny how the companies do everything they can to avoid the description of such services…

They are rental services

Theres basically no difference between a subscription service and the rental companies of old…

 

[steve09090]

Spotify is so bad. They still don’t use Airplay 2. It’s 2024 what is the hold up for?

Or lossless audio. Something they’ve been promising for years.

 

[sw1tcher]

Meanwhile Phil Schiller thinks you're all morons:

Schiller doesn't know whether the App Store is profitable; no notes

Phil Schiller has told a court in an antitrust case that he doesn’t know for sure whether the App Store...

9to5mac.com

That has to be a typo. I think the correct headline should be

Schiller doesn’t know whether the App Store is profitable enough​

 

[steve09090]

Every single develper pays Apple an annual Developer's Fee. Every. Single. One.

That's their rent.

It's not enough? Why then is it enough when it comes to other companies such as McDonald's, Starbucks, Uber, Amazon, Netflix, Target, Walmart, etc.?

But let's go back to your shopping mall example.... Does the shopping mall owner get a cut of each retailers sale? No.

If I go to a store in the shopping mall to browse but don't buy anything for some reason (e.g. wanted to mull it over, didn't have my size, no actual inventory) until I got home and ordered it online, does the shopping mall owner get a cut of that online sale? No. But Apple thinks it should.

The shop owner gets to charge rent though and it ain’t cheap.

 

[JippaLippa]

We'll be still discussing apple vs spotify in 2100...

 

[JippaLippa]

Spotify just raised their prices....again.

And yet nobody in my circle of acquaintances seems to drop this awful company.

They either crack it (don't get me started on this...), listen to music with constant ads and no custom playlists (I don't get this either but oh well...), or just swallow the pill and pay more each time...

What I hate the most is the way they despise whomever uses anything else, like we're the "weridos".
Ok brand loyalty, but I always get "what's wrong with you" looks when ai tell people I use apple music, upon being asked.

 

[steve09090]

And yet nobody in my circle of acquaintances seems to drop this awful company.

They either crack it (don't get me started on this...), listen to music with constant ads and no custom playlists (I don't get this either but oh well...), or just swallow the pill and pay more each time...

What I hate the most is the way they despise whomever uses anything else, like we're the "weridos".
Ok brand loyalty, but I always get "what's wrong with you" looks when ai tell people I use apple music, upon being asked.

They are the vegans of streaming music.

 

[Abazigal]

Every single develper pays Apple an annual Developer's Fee. Every. Single. One.

That's their rent.

It's not enough? Why then is it enough when it comes to other companies such as McDonald's, Starbucks, Uber, Amazon, Netflix, Target, Walmart, etc.?

But let's go back to your shopping mall example.... Does the shopping mall owner get a cut of each retailers sale? No.

If I go to a store in the shopping mall to browse but don't buy anything for some reason (e.g. wanted to mull it over, didn't have my size, no actual inventory) until I got home and ordered it online, does the shopping mall owner get a cut of that online sale? No. But Apple thinks it should.

Because those aforementioned companies chose a business model that doesn’t require them to get taxed by Apple (namely, they have significant marginal costs, while companies like Spotify and Netflix don’t).

If Spotify were in the business of selling music CDs, they wouldn’t need to pay Apple a cent either.

 

[HDFan]

I don't see why Spotify has to pay anything to Apple here.

If Apple designed and built a shopping mall, should vendors expect to be able to set up shop in that mall rent-free? Despite Apple being on the hook for maintenance, security, insurance, etc?

pay Apple for the maintenance, security, insurance, etc. I buy their product.

And if Apple built a shopping mall that eventually had 65% of America's shopping running through it, and they still thought they deserved 30% of every transaction, we would rightfully call them nuts.

Running the app store costs money. Screening for knockoff apps, copyright violations, security issues, etc. Unclear what the charge should be for using the app store but it costs money and needs to be paid for.

When I buy an iPhone, I am buying a complete product which includes the services you think Spotify owes Apple for.

Restricted capabilities without apps. Apps require $ to create, maintain and distribute.

 

[JippaLippa]

They are the vegans of streaming music.

I especially love how they crack spotify, often ending up with horrible malware, because "Everything should be free", but drop 20$ no sweat almost every day for the hip "happy hour".

20$ for 2 watered down overpriced drinks? Hit me up!

10-15$ per month for unlimited music? Are you crazy!!?

Hypocrisy.

 

[agwin27]

If Apple designed a shopping mall, a store should be able to set up shop in a different mall - or on a street side - without paying apple anything at all.

No one is stopping Spotify from creating their own mall or going to set up shop in another one. Should Apple be penalized for building the best mall available?

 

[flexwithmarius]

I especially love how they crack spotify, often ending up with horrible malware, because "Everything should be free", but drop 20$ no sweat almost every day for the hip "happy hour".

20$ for 2 watered down overpriced drinks? Hit me up!

10-15$ per month for unlimited music? Are you crazy!!?

Hypocrisy.

It’s like in the personal training world. Their bar and restaurant tabs alone would cover the session fees. People would rather pay for poison than what actually benefits them.

 

[agwin27]

I pay Apple for the maintenance, security, insurance, etc. I buy their product.

And if Apple built a shopping mall that eventually had 65% of America's shopping running through it, and they still thought they deserved 30% of every transaction, we would rightfully call them nuts.

So if Apple had built Mall of America, and it was widely known that it was the best mall available and no one really decided to open very many competing malls, Apple should now be penalized for that? They should no longer expect to receive rent from their tenants who are capitalizing on their resources and investments?

 

[flexwithmarius]

Every single develper pays Apple an annual Developer's Fee. Every. Single. One.

That's their rent.

It's not enough? Why then is it enough when it comes to other companies such as McDonald's, Starbucks, Uber, Amazon, Netflix, Target, Walmart, etc.?

But let's go back to your shopping mall example.... Does the shopping mall owner get a cut of each retailers sale? No.

If I go to a store in the shopping mall to browse but don't buy anything for some reason (e.g. wanted to mull it over, didn't have my size, no actual inventory) until I got home and ordered it online, does the shopping mall owner get a cut of that online sale? No. But Apple thinks it should.

Apple taxes digital products and subscriptions, not physical ones.

 

[agwin27]

Every single develper pays Apple an annual Developer's Fee. Every. Single. One.

That's their rent.

It's not enough? Why then is it enough when it comes to other companies such as McDonald's, Starbucks, Uber, Amazon, Netflix, Target, Walmart, etc.?

But let's go back to your shopping mall example.... Does the shopping mall owner get a cut of each retailers sale? No.

If I go to a store in the shopping mall to browse but don't buy anything for some reason (e.g. wanted to mull it over, didn't have my size, no actual inventory) until I got home and ordered it online, does the shopping mall owner get a cut of that online sale? No. But Apple thinks it should.

But the developer fee isn’t their rent. You seriously think a 20,000 square foot department store shouldn’t pay higher rent than a 2,000 square foot boutique? And fwiw, there are retail developments all over that have terms in the lease for a percentage of sales of the tenant.

 

[AdonisSMU]

What Apple services is Spotify using when they include a link to their website to subscribe?

If you mean they are using Apple's app distribution system, it's only because Apple forces them to. If you mean their dev tools, then fine, just charge for the dev tools. When I buy an iPhone, I am buying a complete product which includes the services you think Spotify owes Apple for. That's the part that seems crazy to me. How many different people need to pay Apple for one app experience?

Why shouldnt the developers pay the core technology fee? I feel like Spotify is just trying to get out of paying the core technology fee for the technology they use.

 

[sw1tcher]

But the developer fee isn’t their rent.

Yes, it is. The Developer Fee is the equivalent of rent. The fee covers, among other things, the Xcode developer tools and app distribution.

Choosing a Membership - Support - Apple Developer

developer.apple.com

About the Apple Developer Program

If you’re interested in creating apps for distribution on the App Store, Apple Business Manager, or Apple School Manager, join the Apple Developer Program.* Membership includes access to beta OS releases, advanced app capabilities, and tools needed to develop, test, and distribute apps and Safari Extensions.

 

[sw1tcher]

You seriously think a 20,000 square foot department store shouldn’t pay higher rent than a 2,000 square foot boutique?

It's Apple's fault they don't charge large developers (your equivalent to large 20,000 square foot dept stores) a higher developer fee (your equivalent to rent) than they do small developers (your equivalent to small 2,000 square foot boutique shops).

Then again, a large app developer doesn't take up any more space than a small app developer, so even if Apple tried, it'd be hard to justify.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

Spotify is so bad. They still don’t use Airplay 2. It’s 2024 what is the hold up for?

Most assuredly involves Apple FairPlay and licensing.

 

[neilpmas]

They didn’t. The mall in the analogy is not your iPhone, it’s the APIs and developer tools that Spotify uses to build their app so it can run on your iPhone. Apple builds those and lets developers use them to make apps with the understanding that there is a fee involved. Spotify wants to get access to those tools without paying anything for them.

Ah - so you’re saying the software on the phone they sold me isn’t mine?

 

[Rogifan]

This is ridiculous. Nobody is downloading or using Spotify because of Apple. Spotify didn’t build a business on the back of Apple. Apple needs to stop with this BS that anyone who is successful is only successful because of Apple. So arrogant.