Spotify CEO on Apple and Google: 'If You Want to Be the Referee, You Can't Also Be the Player'

[BaldiMac]

I quite literary listed a bunch of services as legally defined that apple provides.

Maintaining the OS or developing the OS is them maintaining a product consumers purchased. If apple don't want to provide software updates, they can do that, but they do it because they benefit from it.

If a developer doesn't use apples provided development platform, development tools, hosting apps, hosting data, etc

then what is the developer paying for?

Apples continued investment in all the software and other services that they have access to.

Currently the price apple asks is 99$ a year to use Xcode etc. using xcode and publishing on steam/ website costs 99$

That’s made up. Nowhere does Apple say Xcode is $99 per year.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Even Chat GPT understands the point:

When you buy an iPhone, you own the physical device. However, the software that runs on the device is owned by Apple and is licensed to you. This means that Apple retains control over the software and has the right to dictate how it is used.Apple's control over which apps can be installed on an iPhone is based on the terms of the App Store, which is the only official way to download and install apps on an iPhone. When developers submit their apps to the App Store, they must follow Apple's guidelines and policies. Apple reviews each app to ensure that it meets its quality and security standards, and can reject apps that violate its guidelines.While some users may find this level of control restrictive, Apple argues that it is necessary in order to maintain the security and integrity of the iOS ecosystem. By controlling which apps can be installed on an iPhone, Apple can ensure that users are protected from malicious software and that the overall user experience is consistent and reliable.

Tell this to the EU supreme court.The CJEU held that the supply of computer software by electronic means, together with a grant of a perpetual license, falls within the definition of ‘sale of goods’ under Council Directive 86/653/EEC1234. This means that software, even when supplied electronically and not on any tangible medium, is considered a “good” in the eyes of the law2

 

[BaldiMac]

iOS isn't a service, it's just locally run software on end user owned devices. You can write iOS applications on Windows

(10)	‘operating system’ means a system software that controls the basic functions of the hardware or software and enables software applications to run on it;

According to your own list of services provided by the EU, web browsers are services. Therefore software is considered a service by your own definition.

 

[BaldiMac]

Tell this to the EU supreme court.The CJEU held that the supply of computer software by electronic means, together with a grant of a perpetual license, falls within the definition of ‘sale of goods’ under Council Directive 86/653/EEC1234. This means that software, even when supplied electronically and not on any tangible medium, is considered a “good” in the eyes of the law2

See above.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Apples continued investment in all the software and other services that they have access to.

having acces to... okey and if they dont use it? such as millions of developers do and not paying apple anything

That’s made up. Nowhere does Apple say Xcode is $99 per year.

XCode by itself is available for free, however, joining Apple's developer program & then uploading to the app store costs $99 per year.

and curently it seems you can use xcode for free and publish games if you want as long as it's not published on the appstore. so whats the issue

 

[BaldiMac]

having acces to... okey and if they dont use it? such as millions of developers do and not paying apple anything

Then they wouldn’t be on iOS, and so are irrelevant to our conversation.

XCode by itself is available for free, however, joining Apple's developer program & then uploading to the app store costs $99 per year.

and curently it seems you can use xcode for free and publish games if you want as long as it's not published on the appstore. so whats the issue

The issue is that you provided oft repeated misinformation.

And, of course, if Apple is forced by the EU to change how they charge developers, then they can change the terms for Xcode.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

According to your own list of services provided by the EU, web browsers are services. Therefore software is considered a service by your own definition.

if you continue on you would see it list Web browsers as a core platform service explicitly to be replaced by competing browser engines. just how the appstore is a software service. but software is defined as digital product or service that runs on an operating system

(10)	‘operating system’ means a system software that controls the basic functions of the hardware or software and enables software applications to run on it;
(11)	‘web browser’ means a software application that enables end users to access and interact with web content hosted on servers that are connected to networks such

(15)	‘software application’ means any digital product or service that runs on an operating system;

 

[BaldiMac]

if you continue on you would see it list Web browsers as a core platform service explicitly to be replaced by competing browser engines. just how the appstore is a software service. but software is defined as digital product or service that runs on an operating system

(10)	‘operating system’ means a system software that controls the basic functions of the hardware or software and enables software applications to run on it;
(11)	‘web browser’ means a software application that enables end users to access and interact with web content hosted on servers that are connected to networks such

(15)	‘software application’ means any digital product or service that runs on an operating system;

None of that changes what I said. The EU consider web browsers (“a software application”) to be a service.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Then they wouldn’t be on iOS, and so are irrelevant to our conversation.

you can still be on iOS without using the services you speak about. curently only able if you jailbreak the device unfortunatly

The issue is that you provided oft repeated misinformation.

And, of course, if Apple is forced by the EU to change how they charge developers, then they can change the terms for Xcode.

thats fine as develoeprs can opt to use other things.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

None of that changes what I said. The EU consider web browsers (“a software application”) to be a service.

And doesn't change that software isn't defined as a service. And iOS is classified as any other sale of goods. Apple not liking it doesn't change the legal meaning irespective of the ToS apple have

 

[BaldiMac]

you can still be on iOS without using the services you speak about. curently only able if you jailbreak the device unfortunatly

No, you can’t be on iOS without using “software and other services” provided by Apple.

 

[bgillander]

It’s not a mall if only one is allowed access. Or would you call a shoe store a mall?

I’m saying they built a device that they have exclusive ability to sell on, so if they practiced what they preach, they would have all their competitors available there, as well.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

No, you can’t be on iOS without using “software and other services” provided by Apple.

Such as? None of the services I listed are needed if side loading is made simple.
The developer isn’t the one putting the program on my phone. The consumer is.

I’m saying they built a device that they have exclusive ability to sell on, so if they practiced what they preach, they would have all their competitors available there, as well.

In what way is it the same? Apple have a device they already allow their competitors. Spotify isn’t

 

[bgillander]

Such as? None of the services I listed are needed if side loading is made simple.
The developer isn’t the one putting the program on my phone. The consumer is.

In what way is it the same? Apple have a device they already allow their competitors. Spotify isn’t

You are correct, Apple is more open than Spotify.

 

[BaldiMac]

Such as? None of the services I listed are needed if side loading is made simple.
The developer isn’t the one putting the program on my phone. The consumer is.

You keep shifting the goalposts by saying "services" and referring to an EU list. I said "software and other services" provided by Apple. If you can't acknowledge that Apple software iOS developers necessarily interact with and benefit from iOS, then you are being deliberately obtuse.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

You keep shifting the goalposts by saying "services" and referring to an EU list. I said "software and other services" provided by Apple. If you can't acknowledge that Apple software iOS developers necessarily interact with and benefit from iOS, then you are being deliberately obtuse.

I’m acknowledging the software part and refers to the Supreme Court ruling that say software on tangible media is classified as sale of goods.

So I’m making two distinctions. Software as the Operating system running on iPhones.

And services that are provided by Apple that runs on the device through apple. Such as the AppStore, IAP, application updates, downloading apps etc etc.

Now when it comes to the software, what are developers benefiting from? APIs aren’t considered IPs.

So I ask you, if Progressive web apps (PWAs) are completely fine to run for free with no commission, why shouldn’t proper software be allowed to run then?

 

[BaldiMac]

I’m acknowledging the software part and refers to the Supreme Court ruling that say software on tangible media is classified as sale of goods.

So I’m making two distinctions. Software as the Operating system running on iPhones.

And services that are provided by Apple that runs on the device through apple. Such as the AppStore, IAP, application updates, downloading apps etc etc.

Now when it comes to the software, what are developers benefiting from? APIs aren’t considered IPs.

So I ask you, if Progressive web apps (PWAs) are completely fine to run for free with no commission, why shouldn’t proper software be allowed to run then?

That's my point. Your shifting goalposts by making distinctions that I never made and do not intend to make.

And then you throw if your completely wrong understanding of IP laws. And your ongoing ridiculous claim that Apple's implementation of APIs are not IP because you don't understand the difference between the name of an API and a company's actual implementation of the API.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

You are correct, Apple is more open than Spotify.

For me I think the AppStore is one of the worst part in iOS for the last 5-10 years and has just progressively degraded more over time. And is badly in need of competition.

Had Apple had the same ToS as valve and had a similar or better version of steam than we wouldn’t need this to force healthy competition

 

[Sophisticatednut]

That's my point. Your shifting goalposts by making distinctions that I never made and do not intend to make.

You might not have made the distinctions. But I have always had the distinction as it’s very important one.
You must pay for services you use.
And you don’t need to pay if you don’t use any services.

And then you throw if your completely wrong understanding of IP laws. And your ongoing ridiculous claim that Apple's implementation of APIs are not IP because you don't understand the difference between the name of an API and a company's actual implementation of the API.

I might be wrong about IP law in the USA, but I’m talking simply from an EU perspective. And here APIs aren’t protected by copyright or intellectual property rights.

There a big distinction in copying someone’s API code and using the code already available present in the OS that anyone can use.

Or did you miss that part in the DMA as well?

 

[BaldiMac]

You might not have made the distinctions. But I have always had the distinction as it’s very important one.
You must pay for services you use.
And you don’t need to pay if you don’t use any services.

Please try and follow the conversation if you'd like to continue the discussion. You making a distinction that I didn't doesn't make my original statement wrong. Again, Apple provides value to ALL iOS developers. Your argument that they deserve nothing in return for creating that value is ridiculous.

I might be wrong about IP law in the USA, but I’m talking simply from an EU perspective. And here APIs aren’t protected by copyright or intellectual property rights.

Again, you're completely wrong. The decision that you repeatedly reference simply says that if iOS has an API that you call using "flowers(x)", a developer could create their own OS that also has an API called using "flowers(x)". It has nothing to do with what we are talking about. It doesn't say that developers can access APIs created by Apple without permission.

There a big distinction in copying someone’s API code and using the code already available present in the OS that anyone can use.

Yep. You just don't understand the difference.

 

[BaldiMac]

For me I think the AppStore is one of the worst part in iOS for the last 5-10 years and has just progressively degraded more over time. And is badly in need of competition.

Had Apple had the same ToS as valve and had a similar or better version of steam than we wouldn’t need this to force healthy competition

It's nice when posters begin to acknowledge their actual motivation instead of hiding behind a nebulous allusion to the greater good.