Apple consistently pays artists 3x more than Spotify despite having lower marketshare
That may be true, but artists typically get far more than 3x the number of plays on Spotify compared to Apple Music.
I know from personal experience.
Apple consistently pays artists 3x more than Spotify despite having lower marketshare
so encourage more people onto platforms that pay better...That may be true, but artists typically get far more than 3x the number of plays on Spotify compared to Apple Music.
I know from personal experience.
The reasons Spotify gives:You make it sound like Apple directly negotiates with artists or licensing companies what they should pay, which is not at all the case. All music streaming services pay artists per stream a share of the revenue divided by the payment pool — a.k.a. If Apple makes $100,000 revenue, and they pay out 50% of that revenue to artists, and your music gets streamed 1,000 times and those streams represent 1% of total streams, that means you get paid $500 = $0.5 per stream. That's an oversimplification with much smaller numbers. Apple consistently pays artists 3x more than Spotify despite having lower marketshare because:
Also Apple is consistently one of the only streaming providers that follows demands from songwriter organisations and indie labels for royalty sharing, so they do pay more than they're usually expected to do.
- Their revenue cut is larger than Spotify,
- Their revenues are similar to Spotify's as they don't have an ad supported plan,
- Spotify has frequently tried to find ways to pay less to artists, like bundling podcasts and audiobooks so they can legally say they're a "bundle subscription" and therefore get away with counting Premium subscribers' revenue as lower.
That kinda makes it worse. If you're seeing similar amounts of money from both platforms despite one of them bringing you 3+x more streams, that sounds like a ripoff to meThat may be true, but artists typically get far more than 3x the number of plays on Spotify compared to Apple Music.
I know from personal experience.
The thing is that it does make enough of a difference. For years now every chart of average pay per stream has put Apple Music at two to three times Spotify's amount, despite Spotify being much larger. AM isn't the highest paying service (ironically, the highest paying service is Napster — who would've thought?), but it's hard to defend Spotify for choosing a business model that consistently devalues the art of music in comparison to competitors, especially when tech's biggest crybaby Daniel Ek keeps on finding ways to scam artists more and more every quarter.The reasons Spotify gives:
Both services claim similar revenue sharing. If a customer from the US paid Spotify $10.99 for a Apple Music subscription, and $10.99 for a Spotify subscription (recently increased to $11.99), a similar dollar amount from each service would be passed on to the rights holders. Maybe some of the shenanigans with bundle pricing or whatever changes the Spotify cut somewhat, but not enough to make a 3x difference.
- A larger percentage of their customers live in countries with lower subscriptions prices.
- They have a free, ad-supported tier, that pays lower rates.
- Their average customer listens to more streams per month than the average Apple Music listener.
If you were to say "Subscribe to Apple Music instead of Spotify, because 3 times as much of your money will go to the artists you like", that would be false. To be clear, I'm not claiming you said that, but I think the claims of 30% and 3x are deceptive without context.
Who is “people”? The majority don’t care about quality of anything. The majority don’t care about Apple either, yet here we are on Macrumors. I don’t give a rats behind about what “the majority” likes or prefers. What the **** do they know?People don't care much (or at all) about lossless audio. Why? Because every other alternative has lossless audio (Tidal, Apple Music, etc...) and Spotify still has the majority of customers 🤷🏻♂️
True, but not for the reason you think.24-bit at 44.1 kHz isn't lossless.
I disagree with your definition of “lossless”, but see my post above on why I agree that delivering 44.1 kHz is not lossless.You gotta go to 24-Bit 194 kHz to get lossless.
This 44.1kHz doesn't even put them in the Hi-Res category.
Just lying. Using words that have a meaning and making them meaningless.
Time will tell, but if Spotify is happy to sample rate convert 48 kHz material to 44.1, I don’t trust them to deliver the 44.1 either. A sample rate conversion is agnostic to the input signal, meaning that it will take whichever incoming signal, convert it to a waveform (essentially analog, even though performed in the digital domain - difficult to grasp, but that is essentially what it is), and create a new sample at 44.1. That means that the incoming 44.1 kHz samples are not necessarily the same as the outgoing 44.1 kHz samples. It can be, but the easy way to engineer it is to not care. If the input is not the same as the output, it is in fact not “lossless”.um, if it is a bit by bit copied file from a CD then it is lossless if sent to your device that way.
how you then play that file is open to loss...
and 24bit is bigger than CD's standard 16 bit.
now CD might not have the original recorded bit for bit encoding...
but then older non-digital recordings have other issues due to the age of the storage method.
slippery slope of what is best source material. enough older recordings have been remastered over the years, many arguably better than what we think we remember...
If the master was created at 44.1, then yes it is (with the caveats of my posts above). “Master” is not a fixed quality, it is whatever quality the producer created.Depends on what they're comparing it to. 44.1kHz is CD quality, so technically you're not losing any quality vs the CD. But you're right, 44.1kHz doesn't equal master quality.
192 and 96, but yes.Also I'm not sure you have to go all the way up to 194kHz to be lossless, especially if the master was only recorded at 98kHz.
Yeah, about the same as watching cat videos on TikTok 🙄Wow. Imagine the data that's going to eat. Phew.
Which is why we should highlight this fact, and push as many people as possible to use a service that actually pays the musicians. Instead of just accepting the status quo.That may be true, but artists typically get far more than 3x the number of plays on Spotify compared to Apple Music.
I know from personal experience.
You just repeated your claim without addressing my points.The thing is that it does make enough of a difference. For years now every chart of average pay per stream has put Apple Music at two to three times Spotify's amount, despite Spotify being much larger. AM isn't the highest paying service (ironically, the highest paying service is Napster — who would've thought?), but it's hard to defend Spotify for choosing a business model that consistently devalues the art of music in comparison to competitors, especially when tech's biggest crybaby Daniel Ek keeps on finding ways to scam artists more and more every quarter.
If 100 million users who pay for a Spotify subscription were to switch to an Apple Music subscription, musicians probably wouldn't be paid any more, on average. Maybe a few percentage points of difference. Definitely not by the amount people infer from the per-stream revenue statistics that people carelessly toss around without context.Which is why we should highlight this fact, and push as many people as possible to use a service that actually pays the musicians. Instead of just accepting the status quo.
What do you mean by "small enough chunks"?. If I can't tell the difference when listening to a minute of a song in a blind test, I don't care what the bitrate is (if that minute is representative of the most challenging to compress music that I might listen to).And I don’t even care if I can tell the difference in a blind listening test. That’s not the point. This argument is tired and misunderstood. There is NOTHING that can be proven in a blind listening test, if you break things down in small enough chunks.
not sure what you mean about a 44.1 Khz being converted to another file... sensible method would be to just send the supplied file AS IS.Time will tell, but if Spotify is happy to sample rate convert 48 kHz material to 44.1, I don’t trust them to deliver the 44.1 either. A sample rate conversion is agnostic to the input signal, meaning that it will take whichever incoming signal, convert it to a waveform (essentially analog, even though performed in the digital domain - difficult to grasp, but that is essentially what it is), and create a new sample at 44.1. That means that the incoming 44.1 kHz samples are not necessarily the same as the outgoing 44.1 kHz samples. It can be, but the easy way to engineer it is to not care. If the input is not the same as the output, it is in fact not “lossless”.
I know I’m making a lot of assumptions here, but Spotify has not yet proven that we should not just assume the worst.
sorry your maths logic on this eludes me...If 100 million users who pay for a Spotify subscription were to switch to an Apple Music subscription, musicians probably wouldn't be paid any more, on average. Maybe a few percentage points of difference. Definitely not by the amount people infer from the per-stream revenue statistics that people carelessly toss around without context.
That’s not what I meant. I mean that if you compare lossless to 320kbps, you may not hear a difference. Compare 320 to 256, you may not hear a difference. 256 to 192. 192 to 160. 160 to 128. 128 to 96. For every step, you probably won’t be able to reliably tell the difference. So now you have “proven” that none of these differences is individually audible in a scientific double blind AB test. Now compare 96 kbps with lossless. If you can’t hear that difference, you shouldn’t be listening to music in the first place.What do you mean by "small enough chunks"?. If I can't tell the difference when listening to a minute of a song in a blind test, I don't care what the bitrate is (if that minute is representative of the most challenging to compress music that I might listen to).
It would seem that way yes. However, there are many situations in digital audio where the engineering behind transporting the file untouched is more complicated than allowing a sample rate conversion. I don’t know the inner workings of a streaming service, but I know for a fact that this happens inside some relatively expensive hifi equipment. Some even lets you turn it on and off, because sample rate conversion off causes issues. So, unless a streaming provider comes out and promises an untouched file (which only Qobuz has done to my knowledge), I am not going to assume that an untouched file is what I am getting.not sure what you mean about a 44.1 Khz being converted to another file... sensible method would be to just send the supplied file AS IS.
Also I'm not sure you have to go all the way up to 194kHz to be lossless, especially if the master was only recorded at 98kHz.
Who is comparing bitrate quality in this way?! The simple test is: for any given encoding mechanism, how does it compare to the best source that you have.That’s not what I meant. I mean that if you compare lossless to 320kbps, you may not hear a difference. Compare 320 to 256, you may not hear a difference. 256 to 192. 192 to 160. 160 to 128. 128 to 96. For every step, you probably won’t be able to reliably tell the difference.
Ok, that makes sense, but I don't believe anyone is suggesting that testing method to determine the optimal bitrate. I would test each bitrate compared to uncompressed, and choose the last one where I couldn't tell the difference.That’s not what I meant. I mean that if you compare lossless to 320kbps, you may not hear a difference. Compare 320 to 256, you may not hear a difference. 256 to 192. 192 to 160. 160 to 128. 128 to 96. For every step, you probably won’t be able to reliably tell the difference. So now you have “proven” that none of these differences is individually audible in a scientific double blind AB test.
I actually did that test recently on a blind abx comparison site, and couldn't easily and reliability tell the difference on the clips they chose. I have lost much of my hearing above 10Khz, and have some (mild?) tinnitus. I used a pair of $100 headphones (Sony MDR 7506) plugged into my PC motherboard.Now compare 96 kbps with lossless. If you can’t hear that difference, you shouldn’t be listening to music in the first place.
Perhaps at a lower bitrate, and if I had better equipment, but I doubt you could at the highest lossy bitrate Spotify provides.Apart from that, I can guarantee you that I can teach you to hear the difference in a few minutes, If I get to choose the tracks to compare.