SSD advantage

[deconstruct60]

I am still trying to get a grasp on SSD. Is this something that is going to replace internal and external drives in the somewhat near future?

In desktops, generally no. There was alot of hype about 18 months ago about flash SSD drives dropping in price to "just as low" as hard drives. Didn't happen. Not going to happen. The $/GB of storage for a flash SSD will be about 10x that of hard drives for the foreseeable future.

Everyone wants a less expensive box or a box with more storage. A SSD only box gives you one that is more expensive and has less storage.


On laptops there is a tradeoff. SSDs consume less power and are not as sensitive to being moved around. Likewise, people are generally OK with storing less on a laptop.

Also SSDs don't have to be rectangular 2.5" diameter metal boxes. You can construct one that takes less space than a standard 2.5" drive. Again a much bigger deal in ultracompact laptops than it is for a desktop like an iMac.

SSDs play a space factor in an iMac if want to have two storage drives inside and don't want to give up optical drive. There not much empty space to put a second drive. Nor is there much extra thermal budget to dissipate the heat from a second one. So that's why they fit as a "second drive" option. Also help eliminate disk I/O through firewire if have to get an external drive to do work on iMac.



As usual you don't get something for free. While SSDs are faster than hard drives they also can wear out faster. The set of users who fill their hard drive up to the brim with "stuff" and that grind away on them for a couple of years would see SSDs crap out later about as much as hard drives would. They both wear out over time.

I would add one to a new iMac should I need one (hoping I won't for several more years), but I am always keeping an eye on what I might want in the future.

If you don't need a SSD in an iMac not don't buy one. The SSDs that will avaiable two years from now are likely to be dramatically better ( last longer , cheaper, etc. ).

If our iMac isn't being severly hamstrung by slow disk I/O then you don't need an SSD. An SSD can give you RAID-0 like speeds without having to use multiple disks.

 

[VirtualRain]

I am still trying to get a grasp on SSD. Is this something that is going to replace internal and external drives in the somewhat near future? I would add one to a new iMac should I need one (hoping I won't for several more years), but I am always keeping an eye on what I might want in the future.

There is no doubt in my mind that mechanical drives will eventually go the way of the floppy drive... it's just a matter of time.

However, the SSD market is in the early adopter phase and will likely stay there for at least a few more years.

As with any computer product, there's always a better one coming down the pike that's better and cheaper... there's never a better time to buy then next week, next month, or next year... but then where will that get you?

 

[reel2reel]

Do any of you SSD owners use Final Cut Pro? Just wondering if project files (not media) should live on SSD or mechanical or if it makes much of a difference.

 

[VirtualRain]

Do any of you SSD owners use Final Cut Pro? Just wondering if project files (not media) should live on SSD or mechanical or if it makes much of a difference.

When I do the occasional FCP project (usually a short 5 minute or less clip) I store all my project files, media and use the SSD's for scratch as well... but then I have plenty of SSD storage. My advice would be to put as much on your SSD as possible.

 

[reel2reel]

When I do the occasional FCP project (usually a short 5 minute or less clip) I store all my project files, media and use the SSD's for scratch as well... but then I have plenty of SSD storage. My advice would be to put as much on your SSD as possible.

That makes sense. And FCP projects won't create a lot of garbage, I wouldn't think.

 

[VirtualRain]

That makes sense. And FCP projects won't create a lot of garbage, I wouldn't think.

Yeah, and when the project is finished, you can move the contents to a mechanical drive for archival if you're short on space.

 

[johnnymg]

Do any of you SSD owners use Final Cut Pro? Just wondering if project files (not media) should live on SSD or mechanical or if it makes much of a difference.

I have FCS loaded on a 128GB SSD along with the OS. One thing I did do is put the LARGE FCS library folders on the data drive. The audio library files alone are HUGE (~30GB) and do not need to be on the same drive as the OS/apps.

cheers
JohnG

 

[VirtualRain]

I have FCS loaded on a 128GB SSD along with the OS. One thing I did do is put the LARGE FCS library folders on the data drive. The audio library files alone are HUGE (~30GB) and do not need to be on the same drive as the OS/apps.

cheers
JohnG

I do the same with that stuff.

 

[reel2reel]

I have FCS loaded on a 128GB SSD along with the OS. One thing I did do is put the LARGE FCS library folders on the data drive. The audio library files alone are HUGE (~30GB) and do not need to be on the same drive as the OS/apps.

cheers
JohnG

Especially if you install the full suite and all the extras (sfx, loops, etc) I'll have to remember that when I set up my SSD.

 

[Icaras]

When I do the occasional FCP project (usually a short 5 minute or less clip) I store all my project files, media and use the SSD's for scratch as well... but then I have plenty of SSD storage. My advice would be to put as much on your SSD as possible.

Hi Virtual Rain, I was just interested in why you think so to use the SSD space as much as possible, besides the fact of getting the most value for your money.

I'm a Logic user and I need to figure out an efficient way to handle my stored project files as well active projects much like you and the other FCP users here on this forum.

Just to clarify, you store all your project files on the SSD? Is this on your RAID configuration or do you have a separate SSD used primarily for scratch on current projects?

I'm not sure how to go about my Logic projects. If I should just store them on the SSD with the OS/Apps, or on a mechanical drive.

 

[reel2reel]

I'm not sure how to go about my Logic projects. If I should just store them on the SSD with the OS/Apps, or on a mechanical drive.

Icaras,

How does Logic manage media? Does it point to all the media, no matter where it's stored? Or does it self-contain, sort of like an Aperture library?

I'm guessing it just points to media, like Final Cut does. I'd think all your audio would be fine on mechanical. As for project files and caches, probably best on the SSD. For FCP, I can't wait to see how much faster thumbnails and waveforms load once I set them to the SSD, because they can really impede performance sometimes.

 

[Icaras]

Icaras,

How does Logic manage media? Does it point to all the media, no matter where it's stored? Or does it self-contain, sort of like an Aperture library?

I'm guessing it just points to media, like Final Cut does. I'd think all your audio would be fine on mechanical. As for project files and caches, probably best on the SSD. For FCP, I can't wait to see how much faster thumbnails and waveforms load once I set them to the SSD, because they can really impede performance sometimes.

Hey Reel, thanks.

Yea, audio content and sample libraries just sit on a mechanical drive, however some audio files create copies of themsevles used in the project within the project folder.

It is definitely possible for a project with heavy usage of samples to go up to gigabytes in size if need be. However, my average project size is usually only just a couple of hundred MBs.

I think your right that it is a good idea to keep project files on the SSD, especially since my project sizes are relatively small. I'm just concerned about I/O performance. I am not going to be RAIDing any drives for use with my projects, so I was thinking about a second SSD for use with projects currently in work, aside from storage of completed projects (let's say, on boot SSD drive I guess). If I'm already reading my audio content libraries off the mechanical drive, it makes sense for me to write to another separate drive, right?

Is this what your doing with current projects? Thats the only thing I'm a little sketchy on.

 

[reel2reel]

If I'm already reading my audio content libraries off the mechanical drive, it makes sense for me to write to another separate drive, right?

Is this what your doing with current projects? Thats the only thing I'm a little sketchy on.

Yep, after years of managing media for very complex video projects, I've developed some workflows that I follow now. In my current setup at work (8-core 2008 MP) I've got the boot drive + three media drives. I try to keep the media drives separate and restricted to certain particular types of media. This helps me stay organized, but also makes it easier to clear off space when the time comes.

For example, I limit two of the drives to the main media (source files for a project) and one of the drives to scratch (render files, temporary media files, exports, etc). I make sure to keep my boot drive free of any renders, media, exports, etc.

For your case, I think you're on the right track. I'm not an audio guy, but I think a lot of workflow technique probably overlaps. I think I'd do exactly what your saying: one drive for your source files (reads) and another for writes. That will avoid a bottleneck and make your projects easier to manage.

I'll keep all my plugins, caches and project files on the SSD, though. I won't know how much the actual project files benefit from the SSD until I try it. Maybe they'll do just as well on mechanical? As long as they're not on the same drive as your media.

One last note re: project files...FCP files can bloat up to 300 MB's or more and if you save/backup your files for a lot of projects, the bulk can build up fast! With FCP files, though, if you throw them into a folder and zip them, they'll shrink down immensely. This is nice if you want to save space, but still archive all your project files. I'd bet Logic files are probably the same.

Anyway, hope any of that helps!

 

[mangrove]

I'm thinking about getting a SSD for my forthcoming 6-core MacPro, and want to know if I understand your comment regarding SSD vs HDD size. If my OS + Apps (no home folder) requirements are 55GB, are you suggesting that a 500-600GB HDD offers better performance than the 64GB SSD mentioned by the OP?

My current OS, Apps and Home folder data is approximately 44GB, so I though the OWC 60GB SSD would be ample size. I can trim down this by putting the home folder and other non-system/non-app essential files on another drive. I'm just wondering how to calculate an adequately sized SSD for my needs, and try to avoid performance degradation over time. As this will be my OS and Apps disc, I don't want to start off on the wrong foot. (been there, done that...)

Did you ever read Lloyd's Mac Performance Guide since he's an MP guy all the way.

I just decided to try the OWC August special for the 40GB SSD. I wanted to use Lloyd's thesis only for a hybrid boot drive. It works-see some threads under Mac Mini about it. I did a clean customized install and left in all my Apps, etc, but did not include iTunes data (120GB for me ) and iPhoto data (6GB soon to be 30 GB more). My boot drive takes up only 27GB. Hey for $99 (August only) that was a very good exercise and it's fast!

 

[Icaras]

Anyway, hope any of that helps!

That helps immensly, thank you! One last thing though, just for clarification. Do you recommend my writes be on the boot SSD drive? Or separately on a second SSD?

I'm guessing Logic's plug-ins and software instruments behave similarly to FCP and other pro apps. All of these are also pretty much tied to Logic itself, so the plug-ins and software instruments will be originally loaded from the boot. But once loaded, the CPU simply does all the processing of plug-ins and effects from there, right?

So does this mean it would be safe to write on the boot SSD? Or is it still beneficial to have a totally separate second SSD for the writes?

 

[mangrove]

I am waiting for my hex MP to arrive and was wondering if it would be wise to get something like 64GB SSD just for the OS. Currently, I have a WD 640GB Black Caviar that I am intending to put in my MP and the 1TB drive that comes standard with MP. So, should I get a 64GB SSD (something like http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148357?
Or do you think I should be OK with the standard configuration?

Hey, check out the threads under Mac Mini about clean/hybrid boot drives a la Mac Performance Guide. OWC has an August special 40GB for $99. Full boot with all my apps and only took 27GB with 12+ available for whatever.

 

[reel2reel]

That helps immensly, thank you! One last thing though, just for clarification. Do you recommend my writes be on the boot SSD drive? Or separately on a second SSD?

I'm guessing Logic's plug-ins and software instruments behave similarly to FCP and other pro apps. All of these are also pretty much tied to Logic itself, so the plug-ins and software instruments will be originally loaded from the boot. But once loaded, the CPU simply does all the processing of plug-ins and effects from there, right?

So does this mean it would be safe to write on the boot SSD? Or is it still beneficial to have a totally separate second SSD for the writes?

Hmm, this is stuff I'm not 100% sure on yet, because I haven't worked with an SSD before. The only thing that makes me hesitant about writing excessively to the SSD is the whole garbage/trim issue. I'd be worried about losing speed. So anything that loads (the app's resources, such as plugins, fx, sound library) should be fine on the SSD. It's the writes that should go to mechanical. This is just based on snippets I've read in many different postings. It sounds like VirtualRain uses a 2nd SSD for writes/scratch (?) so maybe I'm missing something here.

For my first SSD, I'm going to try to restrict it to reads-only (OS, app's, plugins, important libraries, etc) and keep all my other 'temporary' media on mechanical (project media).

Hopefully, VirtualRain will correct me on anything if necessary.

 

[VirtualRain]

I have 3 SSD's in a RAID0 array (more for capacity than speed).

I use Aperture every other day, and FCP, CS5 and Office, occasionally. So I'm hardly grinding my drives daily... keep that in mind.

My SSD's add up to 240GB (3x80) and I store the OS, my apps, my iTunes library, my personal files, my Aperture library, and if I'm doing a FCP project, all my media clips and project files. All these apps are setup to use the system drive (SSD's) as the scratch volume. Everything is blindingly fast and my unused space fluctuates from about 80GB to 30GB depending on if I've got a FCP project on the go.

My philosophy is to try and have everything I'm working on, stored on the SSD's. If I run out of room, I'll buy more. If I kill them from over-writing, I'll buy more. To me they are disposable. This may sound flippant, but in the grand scheme of things a few SSD's don't cost that much ($800 in my case) but make way more difference to my computing experience than anything else I've ever done to a computer in the last 15 years. I'm not going to ration myself. I also think paying an extra $800 on a $3000 computer for the benefit of running everything on SSD's is actually a good deal. It helps alleviate the #1 bottleneck in systems today and allows me to get the most out of my time on the computer. Now not everyone has the same budget or priorities, but I find it amusing that many people have no problem paying a $1200 premium for a 6-core CPU, but can't bring themselves to spend half that on a pair of SSD's.

I also think that keeping stuff on separate drives for organizational sake is not making the best of things... if you have multiple drives (SSD or otherwise) of the same capacity, stripe them and use folders for organization.

I use the stock 1TB mechanical to store library content, archives of my projects, and disk images of my camera CF cards.

I have a 1TB Time Capsule that does backups.

At any rate, I'm sure everyone can find a workflow that uses their own SSD budget to the best for their applications. I know Logic samples are enormous and you probably need to keep those on mechanical drives for now, but if that was my trade, I'd be seriously thinking about how I could move them to SSD's at the first opportunity.

EDIT: I should mention that you can restore your drives to factory condition without TRIM using the Secure Erase method... something I will do about once a year.

 

[Icaras]

Hmm, this is stuff I'm not 100% sure on yet, because I haven't worked with an SSD before. The only thing that makes me hesitant about writing excessively to the SSD is the whole garbage/trim issue. I'd be worried about losing speed. So anything that loads (the app's resources, such as plugins, fx, sound library) should be fine on the SSD. It's the writes that should go to mechanical. This is just based on snippets I've read in many different postings. It sounds like VirtualRain uses a 2nd SSD for writes/scratch (?) so maybe I'm missing something here.

For my first SSD, I'm going to try to restrict it to reads-only (OS, app's, plugins, important libraries, etc) and keep all my other 'temporary' media on mechanical (project media).

At any rate, I'm sure everyone can find a workflow that uses their own SSD budget to the best for their applications. I know Logic samples are enormous and you probably need to keep those on mechanical drives for now, but if that was my trade, I'd be seriously thinking about how I could move them to SSD's at the first opportunity.

Cool, thank you both for your very helpful advice.

Yea, Logic + 3rd party samples are huge and definitely can build up, especially with high quality orchestral libraries. I have been eyeing SSD as my sample drive for quite some time now. I'm still waiting for Intel G3 SSD drives first though.

The only thing is, I've read around in another thread here and another thread elsewhere that a RAID setup seems to not be ideal for audio, for some reason. I have no idea why, but that was the general consensus I gathered from research.

If there wasn't any issues, I wouldn't hesitate to just get 2 SSDs, RAID them and have your same exact setup with storing OS/apps/itunes library/personal files, (everything except my sample libraries), and just be done with it and be happy.

Looks like I need to research this a bit more in depth, but I really see no issue if I were to work on my Logic projects on a 2 SSD RAID0 config.

So it appears the RAID option is once again back on the table. So much indecisiveness.

Edit: Yea, after some quick googling, it does seem that RAID benefits audio much less than it does with working with video (particularly HD video). It seems the best bet for audio is to get 2 or more drives and just use them separately.

 

[reel2reel]

Edit: Yea, after some quick googling, it does seem that RAID benefits audio much less than it does with working with video (particularly HD video). It seems the best bet for audio is to get 2 or more drives and just use them separately.

I think it's just a matter of data rate. Audio files run much smaller than most video files, especially higher quality HD video. RAID helps move that video data rate and sustain it. If you're laying down a 50-minute show to tape, you can't have one single dropped frame or glitch. Audio data rates are much easier to sustain unless, I assume, you're playing back multiple streams/layers.

I think you'd benefit most from a small SSD as boot drive and for your Logic project files and whatever other files load everytime you launch a project. It would probably make your UI feel a lot snappier. Again, this is not based on experience, but just things I've read so far. I'll know much better when I install my new SSD.

 

[reel2reel]

My philosophy is to try and have everything I'm working on, stored on the SSD's. If I run out of room, I'll buy more. If I kill them from over-writing, I'll buy more. To me they are disposable. This may sound flippant, but in the grand scheme of things a few SSD's don't cost that much ($800 in my case) but make way more difference to my computing experience than anything else I've ever done to a computer in the last 15 years. I'm not going to ration myself. I also think paying an extra $800 on a $3000 computer for the benefit of running everything on SSD's is actually a good deal.

I like your way of thinking! I might just order up a second SSD when I get a bit more cash in the bank. I agree with what you're saying. Many times you need to spend money to make money. Saving time is worth a lot to me these days, so fast, solid performance is very valuable.