Steve Jobs on iOS Location Issue: 'We Don't Track Anyone'

[ThunderSkunk]

I like Steves sense of brevity.

Perhaps if people bothered to look up some info on what they were talking about before they went off half-cocked about the latest hyped paranoia...

 

[MacAddict1978]

And they can get that data directly from the telecos without access to your phone. I highly doubt this database exists for that purpose when there are much more seamless/invisible ways to get the information. (Waits patiently for someone to down vote this reply since I mentioned the government getting information from the telcos...ignoring the fact I never took a position on it personally. So much for staying informed.)

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20056344-281.html

No... they use a third party company to hack the phone, and have been for the past year. It's funny this just not became newsworthy as the cops have been on this since the 3GS and have convicted people with the location data. Sorry about your alibis.

 

[techweenie]

We're not.

Though we could.

Now look at this shiny new thing over here.

- Steve

 

[doctor-don]

Agreed. Google's darling Android doesn't just track cell towers. They've found it recording wi-fi networks near the user as well and transmitting that data... like every couple of minutes. (No wonder the batteries don't last on droid for more than 3-5 hours). I wish I could find the link to the article I read that in. It's certain models that have been found to do it.... right down to your GPS coordinates. Why does Google need to know this? And their users are now inadvertently spying on other people. Google has no rights to info on my wi-fi network just because someone drove past my house with an Android phone in the car.

Yet I use Google every day, but I at least know they're watching me.

http://youtu.be/7YvAYIJSSZY

Many apps use the info to provide their services (e.g., WeatherBug). About a year ago I was being located in other states over 600 miles away from my location. That has been remedied - finally - as the app has been improved.

Often I have been told that the GPS info was unavailable for my phone as I was attempting to use the maps.

My myTouch 3G is charged each night. The only times I have put it on the charger was when I was transferring data between my SD card and my computer (images and tunes, e.g.).

 

[brayhite]

Ok, here's the information that's actually known about the consolidated.db file:
1) It records the locations of nearby wi-fi access points and cell towers.
2) When location services were originally added to the iPhone, the file had a different name and was stored in a different location. (It was moved as part of the multi-tasking updates.)
3) The purpose of the file has been explicitly spelled out by Apple *from the beginning*. It is used *by* location services to calculate your current position in order to be able to display your position faster than would be possible solely using GPS. (It's part of the Assisted GPS process.)
4) There is absolutely no evidence that the file's contents are ever transmitted to anyone. It exists on the iPhone, and in the backup(s) of said iPhone.

So why all the hub-bub? The info stays stored ON YOUR PHONE. Anyone who is freaking out (like the user who said he didn't want anyone to be able to take his phone in his office and see his 6 month history of locations) better be deleting ALL emails, ALL past calls, ALL recent text messages, ALL Safari website visits, etc.

Those are just about as revealing as knowing your approximate location and travel patterns.

And to reinforce what someone else said: if you TRULY care about the info being locally stored, don't use the internet. Period. Stop posting here.

 

[wovel]

So Steve is saying there is no database of locations? Thats just an outright lie.

Steve did not actually say anything. Someone said he did, MR decided it must be fact. The ease with which these headers can be faked or even fake mails can be be put ion gmail boxes was shown conclusively last year.

These stories should have a much more pronounced disclaimer.

 

[vincenz]

Only Steve could reply with sentences like those and get away with it.

 

[alent1234]

So Steve is saying there is no database of locations? Thats just an outright lie.

iOS uses services from a company called Skyhook to help with location tracking. they use GPS and wifi access points to pinpoint locations faster than GPS.

a lot of android phones used to use it as well but in 2.1 or 2.2 google made it very hard to use anything except google for location. this is why a lot of android phones have slow GPS or it doesn't work as well indoors.

if the data is sent to anyone it's probably to skyhook to improve their service. or maybe apple is doing something similar and building their own location database. do you really think that every time you use GPS it really sends a signal to outer space?

 

[doctor-don]

I like Steves sense of brevity.

Perhaps if people bothered to look up some info on what they were talking about before they went off half-cocked about the latest hyped paranoia...

News media will do practically anything to attract viewers / listeners / readers, even if the conclusions are incorrect.

 

[0815]

For all those being scared about the location tracking that are posting here:

WARNING: posting here will reveal your current location to certain individuals. You transmit your IP address which is than stored in the web log and can be used to track your location. If you don't like your location being tracked, you should stop posting.

 

[LegendKillerUK]

There could be a few reasons for the database.

iAds - while Apple don't receive any information now, who knows if they may have intended to down the road for targeted iAds based on location. This point is pure speculation and not accusation.

Device Upgrades - Have the database collect info on your current device, copy it to iTunes as part of the backup and dump it on a new device (Say you bought an iPhone 4 coming from a 3GS) Now the iPhone 4 knows what you're 3GS already did, so the new device is as 'smart' as the old one. Makes for a more seamless transition.

 

[marksman]

It seems to me that the media and those sending steve email don't understand what it means when they say "Apple is tracking me".

 

[DavidLeblond]

$5 says the next version of iOS will include a process to truncate consolidated.db just like Android does for locdump. Its not that Apple is USING all this historical data, its just that they neglected to toss in a function to trim the file.

 

[marksman]

No, he said "the info circulating". "THE" info includes the info about the database.

The question specifically asked about Apple tracking this person. That is the question he was answering.

 

[entatlrg]

Facts? Who cares. We want DRAMA.

The Press sure sucks a lot of people in. Or, is there a lot of people in waiting to be sucked in by the Press?

 

[Pontavignon]

"Assisted" GPS is the reason for the cache

Go to any Apple website and check the published specs for iPhone 4/3Gs or iPad with 3Gs. Here's a link to help with that:

http://www.apple.com/ca/channel/iphone/iphone-4/tour/specs.html

You will see that Apple does not just offer GPS, it offers "Assisted" GPS. Here we once again see Apple's zeal to optimize. The location cache that's causing all the fuss is what provides the "Assist". Some secret.

When you are moving about, your device notes and identifies cell towers that come in range. It gathers their identification, which initially does not include location. It then further queries a database to get the location info. The location is associated with that tower ID, and the two together are stored in the "notorious" cache.

When a device owner seeks to use GPS the program assists by instantly getting a preliminary location fix by accessing cell ID and location info in the cache. Without the cache, it would have to seek the cell tower location info first, so the existence of the cache speeds the finding of preliminary location info. That info is used to speed up the tracking and locking-on of the device to the GPS satellite.

So, the cache exists to enable a faster GPS lock.

Sinister?

No, but maybe a bit sloppy, I don't know enough to be able to say for sure. Maybe Apple should only log and locate a tower once, which would limit the adding of current data. Maybe the file should always be encrypted.

I suspect we will find out, because legislators in the US and Europe have become involved and this trivial-seeming issue won't go away.

But, with regard to the Steve Jobs email, it does seem clear that Apple is collecting no information. Apple may once again be the victim of it's zeal to optimize features.

 

[markcres]

Jobs is spinning his BS again as usual. Even when there is overwheming evidence to the contrary...he still insults the intelligence of his customers who he clearly regards as beneath him.

Apple is:

 

[ftaok]

For the record, I don't see what the big deal is ... however, this could all just go away if Apple were to disclose the nature of the db file and what it's used for. As long as the explanation is benign and plausible, I'd think everyone would be satisfied ... except for the folks that are just looking to disagree.

Anyways, unless there's a strategic or proprietary reason not to disclose the nature of the file, then they should just come out and explain.

 

[unlinked]

Correct, and that's why Steve is telling the truth unlike the trolls pretending this is an Apple conspiracy. That file is stuck on your hard disk and goes nowhere. Delete it and you don't even have that (as I did months ago when this story first broke). I tried the mapping tool and it won't work on my machine because consolidated.db cannot be found. Yet my iPhone works just fine, and Location Services works fine too.

Apple has never grabbed this information.

Android, on the other hand, exists so that it can serve advertiser's needs. Apple has been Opt In, but Android is Opt Out, which means your data gets transmitted to advertisers by default. You bet they track you on Droids. That's the entire business model.

So the database exists for no reason at all? Sounds somewhat unlikely to me.

 

[JAT]

Where do people get the idea that Google collects location data regardless of whether or not you selected Agree on the popup?

Probably because their gps features work on their phones. And the fact they can make phone calls.

But keep in mind that the data might be wrong. I typed in my real name and it came up with me . . . but with details oddly wrong. Multiple accounts that could be me, but in each case with wrong data. I clearly have messed up some databases along the way (good).

According to that site, there are 7 people in my family. I'm going to start counting that many on my tax return! The extra cash could buy me a MBP every year.

It's funny how people are panicking about this, but not the Geo-Map feature on any photo taken with an iPhone. Which can be pinpointed to 50m of where you took the photo.

Or any good "real" camera, too.

Wow, I just realised I've been on this forum for quite a while.

Pffftt! Newbie, you're not even in the first 6000 to sign up!

You're holding it wrong. Non-Issue.

Technically, that was an opinion. The issue today sounded more like he was stating facts. So, let's actually look at them...

Looks factual to me. See bold.

[Caveat: this is an old copy, it's from last year sometime]

Information about nearby cell towers and Wi-Fi access points is collected and sent to
Apple with the GPS coordinates of the device, if available: (1) when a customer requests current
location information and (2) automatically, in some cases, to update and maintain databases with
known location information. In both cases, the device collects the following anonymous
information:
Cell Tower Information: Apple collects information about nearby cell towers,
such as the location of the tower(s), Cell IDS, and data about the strength of the
signal transmitted from the towers. A Cell ID refers to the unique number
assigned by a cellular provider to a cell, a defined geographic area covered by a
cell tower in a mobile network. Cell IDS do not provide any personal information
about mobile phone users located in the cell. Location, Cell ID, and signal
strength information is available to anyone with certain commercially available
software.
Wi-Fi Access Point Information: Apple colIects information about nearby Wi-Fi
access points, such as the location of the access point(s), Media Access Control
(MAC) addresses, and data about the strength and speed of the signal transmitted
by the access point(s). A MAC address (a term that does not refer to Apple
products) is a unique number assigned by a manufacturer to a network adapter or
network interface card ("NIC"). The address provides the means by which a
computer or mobile device is able to connect to the Internet. MAC addresses do
not provide any personal information about the owner of the network adapter or
NIC. Anyone with a wireless network adapter or NIC can identify the MAC
address of a Wi-Fi access point. Apple does not collect the user-assigned name of
the Wi-Fi access point (known as the "SSID," or service set identifier) or data
being transmitted over the Wi-Fi network (known as "payload data").

So, the only way for this data to become "personal", is for a cop/hacker to actually take it from YOUR device/computer. Apple's copy has no personal data.

 

[hugothomsen]

Well, I think it's great - I have just been able to track business mileage accurately, even when I have lost the exact date and route - I also can retrace my steps from that holiday 8 months ago where I went to a really nice place and forgot the name of it.

I am not too worried about anyone stealing my phone or laptop and accessing my data - I can remote wipe my phone and my laptop is fairly secure with the StorageVault and complex passwords.

If I against any presumption should be so interesting that someone would steal my Apple gear and throw a lot of resource into finding out when and how often I have been to the pub, well good luck to ya.

It is however an excellent opportunity for Apple to build in a history feature in the maps so you can see where you were - and then implement a paranoia option in a later revision of the iOS that shuts down logging altogether - then all you important folk out there that do so important things that it would be disastrous if you were tracked doing them should be happier.

 

[Northgrove]

So Steve is saying there is no database of locations? Thats just an outright lie.

Apple are only tracking their users if they're using this data to, uh, track their users.

AFAIK, the information is not even sent to Apple.

Database of locations on a device != tracking their users with this database.
For tracking to happen, you need software in place to make use of that information...
For tracking to happen by Apple, you need this info sent to Apple as a start...

This could just as well be a remnant from some app that never happened, or an app that is planned to happen...

 

[Popeye206]

Jobs is spinning his BS again as usual. Even when there is overwheming evidence to the contrary...he still insults the intelligence of his customers who he clearly regards as beneath him.

Apple is:
Image

LOL! Funny! Good one!

Can you share the "evidence" thats sooooo overwhelming?

 

[jebbe]

Go to any Apple website and check the published specs for iPhone 4/3Gs or iPad with 3Gs. Here's a link to help with that:

http://www.apple.com/ca/channel/iphone/iphone-4/tour/specs.html

You will see that Apple does not just offer GPS, it offers "Assisted" GPS. Here we once again see Apple's zeal to optimize. The location cache that's causing all the fuss is what provides the "Assist". Some secret.

When you are moving about, your device notes and identifies cell towers that come in range. It gathers their identification, which initially does not include location. It then further queries a database to get the location info. The location is associated with that tower ID, and the two together are stored in the "notorious" cache.

When a device owner seeks to use GPS the program assists by instantly getting a preliminary location fix by accessing cell ID and location info in the cache. Without the cache, it would have to seek the cell tower location info first, so the existence of the cache speeds the finding of preliminary location info. That info is used to speed up the tracking and locking-on of the device to the GPS satellite.

So, the cache exists to enable a faster GPS lock.

Sinister?

No, but maybe a bit sloppy, I don't know enough to be able to say for sure. Maybe Apple should only log and locate a tower once, which would limit the adding of current data. Maybe the file should always be encrypted.

I suspect we will find out, because legislators in the US and Europe have become involved and this trivial-seeming issue won't go away.

But, with regard to the Steve Jobs email, it does seem clear that Apple is collecting no information. Apple may once again be the victim of it's zeal to optimize features.

And again this, Assisted GPS does not mean it doesn't have a GPS AGAIN.

Assisted GPS means it has a GPS but is also Assisted by the cell towers to get a location faster. Most GPS devices use Assisted GPS for speed and accuracy anymore.

 

[bearcatrp]

IF apple is not collecting the data, then what's the point of the file in the first place. Or, how come there is not a way for users to delete this file on the phone when they see fit. Sure, all the carriers are collecting all data, per patriot act and newer laws enacted since.
Someone should ask steve this question?
Does any government agency collect this data, through apple, or by other means? I'll bet he will hee haw around this question!
This stuff is part of the cloud computing. You will have a advertisement come across your phone when you go into areas that advertise through the phones. All of them will be doing this. Part of the business model. Get used to it as there is nothing we can do about it besides shutting your phone off and getting rid of them.