Steve Jobs, You are a hypocrite

[72930]

Good grief, a child could swap out 4 hard drives, 4 RAM DIMMS, and put in an extra video card in less than 15 minutes and never worry about pinching cables, ripping out sticky SATA connectors, or having sweat drip onto the motherboard. It's beautiful inside because it's engineered so well.

If only the laptops were so easy...

 

[Sesshi]

Licensing OSX to other users would have no discernable benefit to its users.

Why not? Third-party manufacturers write drivers. The Tier 1 manufacturers on the Windows side all test their own combinations for stability before they ship them out.

 

[Eraserhead]

Why not? Third-party manufacturers write drivers. The Tier 1 manufacturers on the Windows side all test their own combinations for stability before they ship them out.

The thing is that you understand technology and spend a lot of money on it, compared to ordinary people, most people buy $500 Dell's, they wouldn't provide a good experience for running OS X on, now I know that at the high end competing hardware is better, and seeing as the Mac Pro and MBP are so expensive I'm genuinely surprised that Apple hasn't made the hardware as reliable as high end PC hardware that you usually buy. Apple should make the MBP/MP into high end workstation level products that are very high quality and also look good. The lower end MB/iMac/Mac Mini/Mythical xMac should be competing on price with other manufacturers.

 

[Sesshi]

The thing is that you understand technology and spend a lot of money on it, compared to ordinary people, most people buy $500 Dell's, they wouldn't provide a good experience for running OS X on

Why not? Many people use Minis. A $500 Dell with OS X would be at least comparable in terms of performance.

 

[FleurDuMal]

Why not? Third-party manufacturers write drivers. The Tier 1 manufacturers on the Windows side all test their own combinations for stability before they ship them out.

Yes, and what a half-arsed job they do of it. My Windows experience was forever blighted by things not working togeter. If OSX went the same route the I'd see no incentive in staying with it.

 

[GFLPraxis]

There is an extreme difference between DRM on content and DRM on software.

 

[bearbo]

Build a system out of a bunch of parts.

Much like a BMW 3 series might take many of the same components found in the Mini Cooper, but they can still be very different cars.

Compare the Mac Pro to a similar Dell or the Intel reference design and you will ultimately find what they have done.

B

half of the ppl on this forum can Build a system out of a bunch of parts... not to mention other computer companies. so what did apple do again? the whole apple build their own computers era is in the past.

Good grief, a child could swap out 4 hard drives, 4 RAM DIMMS, and put in an extra video card in less than 15 minutes and never worry about pinching cables, ripping out sticky SATA connectors, or having sweat drip onto the motherboard. It's beautiful inside because it's engineered so well.

apple didn't engineer ANYTHING in the current computer hardware. it was either done mostly in the PPC era, or done by other companies such as intel.

 

[stealthman1]

You have a imprecise understanding of the word 'engineer'.

 

[Eraserhead]

Why not? Many people use Minis. A $500 Dell with OS X would be at least comparable in terms of performance.

I have generally found in my experience that very cheap PC's have atrocious performance, maybe they are full of malware but they have always seemed really slow to me.

The other thing is that since buyers of $500 PC's cause several problems:

1) They are generally less knowledgeable, as in general they are less knowledgeable (there are also people who can only afford to spend that much and like computers, but they are probably in the minority compared to people who don't *want* to spend more.) and are more likely to get malware/viruses on their computers.

2) They make next to no money for the hardware manufacturer. (aren't Dell's profits lower than Apple's even though it sells a lot more computers?)

3) They buy very little software as they aren't spending lots on their computer, the most extra they will buy is MS Office.

Therefore it doesn't benefit Apple (from a hardware/profit side), it's current users, or 3rd party developers for them to switch, so why is it in Apple's interest to make it easy?

 

[aristobrat]

apple didn't engineer ANYTHING in the current computer hardware. it was either done mostly in the PPC era, or done by other companies such as intel.

So it was Intel that engineered the funky MacBook Pro and mini logic boards?

And in regards to the Mac Pro, even if that is a totally Intel engineered box, Apple is the first company I've seen that makes working inside of the case "worry free". Why doesn't Dell take the extra time in design to route the wires away from places your hands would commonly be working when you replace a drive or add memory? Does that cost an extra $2 per machine, which doesn't scale for a company that's selling boxes for next to nothing?

 

[bearbo]

So it was Intel that engineered the funky MacBook Pro and mini logic boards?

And in regards to the Mac Pro, even if that is a totally Intel engineered box, Apple is the first company I've seen that makes working inside of the case "worry free". Why doesn't Dell take the extra time in design to route the wires away from places your hands would commonly be working when you replace a drive or add memory? Does that cost an extra $2 per machine, which doesn't scale for a company that's selling boxes for next to nothing?

but that worry-free design as you called was more or less materalized years ago during the development of powermac g5. is it not?

You have a imprecise understanding of the word 'engineer'.

i don't, you do. in fact, you have a inaccurate understanding of the word "precise" and "engineer".

there is nothing precise or imprecise here, for there is only one datum point.

if you want to fricking pulling jargon on me, at least get the definition right.

now, assuming you meant inaccurate understanding, tell me where my understanding is wrong?

 

[panoz7]

but that worry-free design as you called was more or less materalized years ago during the development of powermac g5. is it not?

Have you ever worked on a powermac G5 and a macpro? The only cominality between the case design is the external apperance. Internally the macpro is a whole new beast.

 

[aristobrat]

apple didn't engineer ANYTHING in the current computer hardware. it was either done mostly in the PPC era, or done by other companies such as intel.

Again, what about the logic boards on the mac mini? It's nothing like the PPC version of the mini at all.

And from looking at the iFixIt guides, the MacBook and MacBook Pro internals aren't all that similar to the iBook or PowerBook.

Is the magnetic closing of the MacBook not considered engineering? MagSafe? Front Row remotes? Those features weren't around in the PPC days of the iBooks or PowerBooks.

 

[balamw]

half of the ppl on this forum can Build a system out of a bunch of parts... not to mention other computer companies. so what did apple do again? the whole apple build their own computers era is in the past.

Eliminate all the people who can make a system as small or power efficient as a current Intel Mac and report back. And no, I don't consider any of the Shuttle XPCs comparable. They're HUGE in comparison.

The iMac and mini are feats of engineering whether you like it or not. Not computing performance, but thermal and power management with a good dose of software thrown in.

B

 

[hulugu]

half of the ppl on this forum can Build a system out of a bunch of parts... not to mention other computer companies. so what did apple do again? the whole apple build their own computers era is in the past.




apple didn't engineer ANYTHING in the current computer hardware. it was either done mostly in the PPC era, or done by other companies such as intel.

This argument is orthogonal to the DRM discussion, but nevertheless I'd like to wade in.

Apple deserves to use the term 'design' in regard to their products in the same way that an architect like Frank Gehry—someone who also likes to make shiny objects.
Now, Gehry's iconic design of the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao, Spain was his own. However, did he build it? Did he design the HVAC system or did he make the steel I-beams in the frame? Obviously not, because large buildings are 'designed' by architects, 'engineered' by various engineers, and built by contractors and construction workers. It is unreasonable to expect Frank Gehry to pour concrete, weld beams, and design everything from light bulbs to the blower motor on the AC unit. Thus, it is also unreasonable to expect Apple to engineer the Mobo, the HDs, the LCD, and nearly every other part.
Apple makes choices about which HD is used, they make choices in regards to Mobo designs, processors, as well as the design for the case and little add-ons like where the iSight camera should go. They don't have to grind the glass on the lens, and they don't have to make each and every part.

It would be disingenious for Apple to say "Designed and Built in Cupertino" but the simple "Designed in Cupertino" is a worthwhile claim.
Microsoft's Zune is slightly less honest, since it really should be "Designed by Samsung, with software by Microsoft" but I don't think that's a reasonable expectation since an honest description of any product would include such a litany of companies that it would be akin to a stock-car. That is the modern reality of modern computing.

 

[stealthman1]

i don't, you do. in fact, you have a inaccurate understanding of the word "precise" and "engineer".

there is nothing precise or imprecise here, for there is only one datum point.

if you want to fricking pulling jargon on me, at least get the definition right.

now, assuming you meant inaccurate understanding, tell me where my understanding is wrong?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/imprecise
im·pre·cise Pronunciation[im-pruh-sahys]
–adjective not precise; not exact; vague or ill-defined.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/engineer
en·gi·neer Pronunciation[en-juh-neer]
–noun
....
6. to plan, construct, or manage as an engineer: He's engineered several big industrial projects.
7. to design or create using the techniques or methods of engineering: The motor has been engineered to run noiselessly.
8. to arrange, manage, or carry through by skillful or artful contrivance: He certainly engineered the election campaign beautifully.

Have a nice day.

 

[bearbo]

Have you ever worked on a powermac G5 and a macpro? The only cominality between the case design is the external apperance. Internally the macpro is a whole new beast.

But given the motherboard, everything else is just put together

Again, what about the logic boards on the mac mini? It's nothing like the PPC version of the mini at all.

And from looking at the iFixIt guides, the MacBook and MacBook Pro internals aren't all that similar to the iBook or PowerBook.

Is the magnetic closing of the MacBook not considered engineering? MagSafe? Front Row remotes? Those features weren't around in the PPC days of the iBooks or PowerBooks.

i was under the impression that Apple uses standard motherboard templates supplied by Intel. Sure they made choicse, but

Front Row was around since PPC, check your facts.

so what, we are down to magnetic closing of macbook and magsafe? i'm not saying those are nothing, but is that it?

Eliminate all the people who can make a system as small or power efficient as a current Intel Mac and report back. And no, I don't consider any of the Shuttle XPCs comparable. They're HUGE in comparison.

The iMac and mini are feats of engineering whether you like it or not. Not computing performance, but thermal and power management with a good dose of software thrown in.

B

Mac Pro (and the Powermac G5) are the largest desktops i've ever seen.
iMac and mini are great, but do know they were around before 01/2006.

This argument is orthogonal to the DRM discussion, but nevertheless I'd like to wade in.

Apple deserves to use the term 'design' in regard to their products in the same way that an architect like Frank Gehry—someone who also likes to make shiny objects.
Now, Gehry's iconic design of the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao, Spain was his own. However, did he build it? Did he design the HVAC system or did he make the steel I-beams in the frame? Obviously not, because large buildings are 'designed' by architects, 'engineered' by various engineers, and built by contractors and construction workers. It is unreasonable to expect Frank Gehry to pour concrete, weld beams, and design everything from light bulbs to the blower motor on the AC unit. Thus, it is also unreasonable to expect Apple to engineer the Mobo, the HDs, the LCD, and nearly every other part.

Apple makes choices about which HD is used, they make choices in regards to Mobo designs, processors, as well as the design for the case and little add-ons like where the iSight camera should go. They don't have to grind the glass on the lens, and they don't have to make each and every part.

It would be disingenious for Apple to say "Designed and Built in Cupertino" but the simple "Designed in Cupertino" is a worthwhile claim.
Microsoft's Zune is slightly less honest, since it really should be "Designed by Samsung, with software by Microsoft" but I don't think that's a reasonable expectation since an honest description of any product would include such a litany of companies that it would be akin to a stock-car. That is the modern reality of modern computing.

this is the best argument i've heard so far.

but i didn't say apple didn't design their products at all, i'm saying most of the design work was done during the PPC era.

Mac Pro
one can certainly argue the internal of Mac Pro is drastically different from that of the powermac g5. However, provided apple uses the standard template for motherboard/logic board (if that assumption is false, please provided articles stating apple designed its own motherboard, and i will gladly stand corrected), and provided that intel chip is much cooler than the PPC ones, then there is not much left for apple to engineer. Sure someone has to put it together, but by no mean did apple achieve some technological feat here.
The placement of optical drive, hard drive, and motherboard is by no mean more advanced than the powermac g5. one can even argue the placement of the power cord connector is nonsensable.
provided the Intel-designed-mobo assumption is true, using the other components used, such as the type of RAM is probably part of the Intel design too.
i'm not saying no work gone into this, i'm saying the amount of work gone into mac pro development is significantly less than that gone into powermac g5.

imac / mac mini
now i admit i'm not familiar with imac/mini at all except i had a imac g3 once. but if i were to guess, i would think imac is internally similar to imac g5. of course with new mobo and new CPU... and since it is a fact that the core duo/core 2 duo are cooler than g5, why is this a feat in engineering in term of thermal management as one of the person i quite said?

macbook/pro
i love the magsafe, but it saddens me if that's the only new thing that has gone into these beautiful machines (aside from the mobo and CPU). oh right, isight, it's a smart idea! oh wait, it was already implemented in imac g5.

also, what's with all the quality control problems, the stained palm rest on macbooks, the whine, the less than good display of mbp, etc, etc.. you would think if someone were to take the time and design, test this, those wouldnt happen... can you believe if Mr. Frank Gehry designed a museum, but some of the exhibit gets deformed from too much heat from unreasonably placed window? i know that's a far streched comparison, but you get what i mean.

i dont need you to tell me ("you" is not pointing at anyone specific) how your macbook/pro never had any problem, i'm on my 4th one.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/imprecise
im·pre·cise Pronunciation[im-pruh-sahys]
–adjective not precise; not exact; vague or ill-defined.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/engineer
en·gi·neer Pronunciation[en-juh-neer]
–noun
....
6. to plan, construct, or manage as an engineer: He's engineered several big industrial projects.
7. to design or create using the techniques or methods of engineering: The motor has been engineered to run noiselessly.
8. to arrange, manage, or carry through by skillful or artful contrivance: He certainly engineered the election campaign beautifully.

Have a nice day.

precision is defined by the ability to reproduce the same result, in engineering terms. it has nothing to do with whether the result is correct or not. how correct the result is, is called accuracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

now, you have demonstrated you ability to look up definition, but also demonstrated you inability to understand the definition. otherwise you would've had at least some explaination.

 

[hulugu]

this is the best argument i've heard so far.

but i didn't say apple didn't design their products at all, i'm saying most of the design work was done during the PPC era.

... can you believe if Mr. Frank Gehry designed a museum, but some of the exhibit gets deformed from too much heat from unreasonably placed window? i know that's a far streched comparison, but you get what i mean.

It was my understanding from earlier posts that you did not believe Apple should claim "designed by..." because other companies build so many of the internal components.

Also, I picked Gehry for a reason, his designs for the Dancing House in Prague and the Guggenheim in Bilbao are fantastic, however there are some problems with his design for the Disney Center in downtown LA, where the reflection from the stainless steel focuses in such a way that pedestrians can receive serious sunburns and plastic melts on the sidewalk.
The fix is to scruff up the stainless steel panels so the light is diffused rather than focused on small points.

Even great artists can make serious errors in their designs; Gehry and Apple are actually quite similar.

 

[bearbo]

if that was your understanding... well, it's probably my fault that i didn't make it clear...

i'm disappointed at the fact apple is no longer focusing on the computer part. they used to have great R&D goes into the computer making. but that is no longer the case. apple no longer really design their computer anymore, the whatever design value in apple computers now were pratically all from the PPC era.

my comment might have little to do with the original post.

but Steve Jobs still claims that "apple make their own hardware" is a bit of a stretch.