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Hey Woz…. the only thing "unfair" is that the bureaucrats in Washington DC are taking 50% of your paycheck. And then they spend your tax dollars on prostitutes, Isreal's defense, and vacation days in Istanbul.

Some people in government are corrupt. True. They need to be moved on.
But, this doesn't mean companies shouldn't be paying tax properly.
One hopes individuals such as Sanders are elected to the presidency and the corrupt individuals start getting weeded out and put out into the compost.
 
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Some people in government are corrupt. True. They need to be moved on.
But, this doesn't mean companies shouldn't be paying tax properly.
One hopes individuals such as Sanders are elected to the presidency and the corrupt individuals start getting weeded out and put out into the compost.

The problem is the amount of "some people" never changes. People change, but the amount doesn't. So i applaud Apple for taking every legal way to minimize money wasting.
 
Corporate taxes, and especially US Federal corporate taxes on companies that have worldwide sales and operations, are just one of those topics that really don't lend themselves to simplistic solutions.

We shouldn't tax businesses (and especially public corporations with millions of shareholders) the same way as we tax wealthy individuals. Corporations need profits to reinvest in R&D; in new factories and processes; in taking the chances on projects that have an uncertain chance of being successful.

Publicly traded companies return their after-tax profits to their Shareholders, in the form of dividends or in the form of higher share prices. These Shareholders then pay taxes on the money they receive. Thats why some economists and politicians talk about "double taxation." If Apple pays a tax on its profits; and then distributes whats left to its shareholder who then pay another tax on that money: its hard to argue that Apple's profits aren't being "taxed twice."

Despite that, we shouldn't do away with corporate taxes completely. Because if we did that we'd end up with a situation where wealthy people would use corporations as a means of accumulating immense wealth; and deferring the day taxes were paid on those earnings and wealth pretty much indefinitely.

Further complicating things is the fact that companies like Apple have operations, sales, and profits in a multitude of different countries; each with their own tax laws and rates. And such companies can - and arguably should - plan their tax strategy so as to minimize the total amount of taxes they have to pay.

US Corporate tax are in need of serious reform. The overall nominal rate is probably too high. Its among the highest in the developed world, and frankly just encourages companies like Apple and Google to take advantage of international tax shelters and strategies.

We should lower taxes on big businesses so that they have an incentive to invest for the future. But we should also reform the system so that companies pay a fair - but reasonable - share of their worldwide income.
 
Brilliant! This is the spirit of what Apple was founded on, the spirit of two Steves.

Unfortunately to date Apple has gone down the unsavoury route of shifting profits to different countries to reduce their tax. A convoluted mix of highly unethical funds movements. That's not the Apple I wish to be associated with.


Apple is a global company. Various countries around the world tax citizens and companies taxation amounts between 15% to 45% (plus or minus a few %). Apple taxes its developers 30% on sales to include apps in the App Store. Apple, with its incredible financial success, is primed to pay at the very least 30% tax for all sales it makes in the country which it has made the sale. Wozniak's 50% is even more progressive. I like it very much. It is fair and it is right. Thank you, Steve.

I assume that, being a 6502, you know better than what you are writing, but I know I shouldn't assume.

1) Apple pays taxes as required in the countries where it does business. That applies both inside and outside the US.
2) After paying taxes in such countries above, Apple has excess currency (it's a profitable business, after all).
3) Apple moves that money around between countries that are outside the United States.
4) Apple chooses not to bring those currencies back to the United States because the repatriation taxes are unpalatable.

In the above scenario, Apple is paying all the taxes it owes on earned income. What Apple is not paying is a repatriation tax that it does not have to pay if it does not repatriate foreign currency. If Apple is earning *interest* in some country where it *stores* its money at a favorable rate, that's just plain common sense.

Separate point: Apple does not "tax" its developers. It charges a fee for the right to sell in the App Store. In exchange, Apple provides the infrastructure to make those apps accessible to customers: advertising, sales, logistics. This allows the developers to focus on developing.

As to Woz 50% income tax, that's simply not correct. the maximum for ordinary income is 39.6%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Marginal_tax_rates_for_2016

And if Woz is paying that on his total annual income (including dividends, capital gains, etc), as another reader has observed, he needs to fire his tax preparer/lawyer.
 
They'd fund schools properly. They'd support and fix a hospital system in crisis. There would be great outcomes for everyone if companies paid proper tax.

Let me make this more realistic:

They could fund schools properly. They could support and fix a hospital system in crisis. There could be great outcomes for everyone if companies paid proper tax.

This is all the stuff the state says it could do with more money (and be honest they are printing it in full speed, if they wanted to use some of this debt money to fix and support schools and hospitals but they dont want to) This is just stuff politicians tell voters and make them feel happy and even if there is money going to these things, its not the amount it should be
 
I can't believe my ears when I hear people defending taxes! Collectivists are such gumps. Go ahead and pay your taxes you fools. Hope they pave your roads lol.
I just want the big corporations to pay their fair share so the government will stop going after individual people working their butts off. The IRS will make a waitress pay tax for tips she got stiffed on, but meanwhile corporations get to hide billions in Ireland. The government will go all out to get $200 out of a person working two jobs just to life in a crappy apartment among the drug dealers. If they need the money that badly, yeah, go after the corporations and let the little people breathe a little.

But no, I'm not defending taxes, per se. They can be used for great things like maintaining infrastructure. But the last half of my life I've seen them used to lie to the American People so we could make war on a country so Darth Cheney and his buddies could make more money while our kids and friends come home with body parts missing and end up homeless. I am jaded on the subject.
 
To me, it's not so much the amount of taxes companies or individuals should pay, but there's no proper system to identify or direct where that tax money goes.

Sure, the system in place is to vote and hope the elective you voted for gets in, but what if they don't?

Here in Ontario, Canada, our province has been decimated by the Liberal party absolutely blowing ga-billions on idiotic ventures (gas plants, e-health blah blah) - we now have more debt than the REST of the country combined. I didn't vote for those numbnuts, but the funds my taxes go to are decided no matter what.

I'd love a system where I could direct x % towards healthcare, roads, education etc... Or maybe a voting system where individual projects like the gas plants have a provincial (or federal) vote. Maybe my vote will still not 'win', but at least there would more of a chance (at least I think so?).

Look at the people in Flint, MI. I'm sure they would have loved to have had their tax dollars go to the proper water project (although, it sure seems like there was criminal deceit there by the elected officials).

I don't know what the answer is. I know this - when I worked for a local company and their bookkeeping. The amount of taxes they pay is staggering as it is. Add in the expenses of running a company and to be honest, there isn't a huge gap in profit. Sure, some of you might judge that company and say maybe they shouldn't be running if they're not making oodles of cash.

Maybe they shouldn't. But then they wouldn't employ 7 people for 7 different families. At least they're making a bit of money and helping employ people while running a meaningful service to clients.

Other people say businesses should pay more to even out the amount of taxes, but 2 problems I have with that:

1. For every person who is busting their hump trying to make it all work, how many lazy arses are out there claiming to be unable to work when really, they could? They grab their monthly cheque and head to the beer store. Too many. I've seen them.

2. Where is the onus to get out there and make something of yourself? Just because this local company has some super hard working people who persevere through tough times, does that mean they should be penalized? It's like a 10 mile runner - if runner A busts her butt training non-stop, eating properly and preparing for a race, she DESERVES to get a better time than runner B who doesn't have the same commitment. That is NOT judging anyone either. Some people are a-ok with not pushing hard - they put in their time and get their paycheque which they deserve. Just because some other people are willing to put in the time and something else I forgot which is huge, the financial risk of running a business, doesn't mean they should get penalized further.

Bottom line: there's no straight answer, but I think 50% taxes for businesses would KILL the economy because some businesses wouldn't be able to keep employing the same amount of people....if it all.

Cheers,
Keebler
 
I assume that, being a 6502, you know better than what you are writing, but I know I shouldn't assume.

1) Apple pays taxes as required in the countries where it does business. That applies both inside and outside the US.
2) After paying taxes in such countries above, Apple has excess currency (it's a profitable business, after all).
3) Apple moves that money around between countries that are outside the United States.
4) Apple chooses not to bring those currencies back to the United States because the repatriation taxes are unpalatable.

In the above scenario, Apple is paying all the taxes it owes on earned income. What Apple is not paying is a repatriation tax that it does not have to pay if it does not repatriate foreign currency. If Apple is earning *interest* in some country where it *stores* its money at a favorable rate, that's just plain common sense.

Separate point: Apple does not "tax" its developers. It charges a fee for the right to sell in the App Store. In exchange, Apple provides the infrastructure to make those apps accessible to customers: advertising, sales, logistics. This allows the developers to focus on developing.

As to Woz 50% income tax, that's simply not correct. the maximum for ordinary income is 39.6%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Marginal_tax_rates_for_2016

And if Woz is paying that on his total annual income (including dividends, capital gains, etc), as another reader has observed, he needs to fire his tax preparer/lawyer.
I know exactly what I am writing. Being a 6502 shouldn't mean I need to be writing to a prescribed formula.

If your stance is to not pay taxes fairly, that's your view, but it means a lot of other individuals need to make up for the shortfall. Now, the
Government spending tax efficiently and properly is another argument to be investigated.

Here are the corporate tax rates for countries around the world:
https://home.kpmg.com/xx/en/home/se...x-rates-online/corporate-tax-rates-table.html

For example, if Apple sells an iPod in Argentina, where the corporate tax rate is 35%, Apple should pay tax of 35% on all those sales in Argentina.
And, for example, if Apple sells an iPhone in Finland, where the corporate tax rate is 20%, Apple should pay tax of 20% on all those sales in Finland. And, again, for example, if Apple sells an Apple Watch in the USA, where the corporate tax rate is 40%, Apple should pay tax of 40% on all those sales in the USA. And so on...

It's really simple for Apple to pay taxes properly and fully in each country as required, not spend resources on account tricks to make up its own rules to dodge tax.

Currently Apple reduces its tax liability using a spider web of transactions, inflating marketing costs in different regions, and attributing sales to other countries where the tax rate is less.

Apple uses a variety of offshore structures and arrangements to shift billions of dollars to other countries such as Ireland. For example, in the USA, the corporate tax rate is 40%, while Apple has negotiated a special corporate tax rate in Ireland of less than 2%:
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-apple-reduces-what-it-pays-in-taxes-2013-5
http://www.forbes.com/sites/leesheppard/2013/05/28/how-does-apple-avoid-taxes/
http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-...-a-zero-tax-bill-in-2016-20160127-gmeub5.html

Apple is a great company but Apple should pay proper tax. Wozniak is right.
 
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I don't agree with corporations paying high tax rates. These are the same companies that employee US citizens do they can house and feed their family. If you increase corporate tax rates, there will be consequences, such as lower wages, layoffs, and less hiring.

That said, this same thing is happening when companies move their manufacturing overseas. If corporations choose to go down that road, I think it would be fair to tax them higher.
 
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Corporate taxes, and especially US Federal corporate taxes on companies that have worldwide sales and operations, are just one of those topics that really don't lend themselves to simplistic solutions.

And if you don't want to be simplistic, then you have to admit that business consists of more than just the owners and shareholders. It also consists of employees, customers/consumers, AND the society that the business operates within. There's a reason that Apple has more stores in developed countries than undeveloped ones.
 
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What an idiot. Instead of insisting on others paying "their fair share" he needs to be questioning why governments need an ever increasing share of the efforts of their citizens.

>50% taxation is obscene, whether it be for an individual or a corporation at any income level.

What does "their fair share" mean?"


Woz could very well pay 50% tax if he is gifted items and agrees to pay the tax. Without the details though it does appear his accountant may be Mr Turbo Tax.
 
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I just want the big corporations to pay their fair share so the government will stop going after individual people working their butts off. The IRS will make a waitress pay tax for tips she got stiffed on, but meanwhile corporations get to hide billions in Ireland. The government will go all out to get $200 out of a person working two jobs just to life in a crappy apartment among the drug dealers. If they need the money that badly, yeah, go after the corporations and let the little people breathe a little.

But no, I'm not defending taxes, per se. They can be used for great things like maintaining infrastructure. But the last half of my life I've seen them used to lie to the American People so we could make war on a country so Darth Cheney and his buddies could make more money while our kids and friends come home with body parts missing and end up homeless. I am jaded on the subject.

Corporations are false individuals. Regardless of whether they are taxed or not, the individual rights of natural persons are a totally separate issue. Also, the IRS and the Federal Reserve are private corporations, as is the federal government called "The United States of America". This is not conspiracy theory. It is conspiracy actuality.
 
Let me make this more realistic:

They could fund schools properly. They could support and fix a hospital system in crisis. There could be great outcomes for everyone if companies paid proper tax.

This is all the stuff the state says it could do with more money (and be honest they are printing it in full speed, if they wanted to use some of this debt money to fix and support schools and hospitals but they dont want to) This is just stuff politicians tell voters and make them feel happy and even if there is money going to these things, its not the amount it should be
Yes, I agree, I'm missing the word could. That's what would be expected to be done with greater revenue generation. The other side of this argument is to hold Governments to account and not vote in the status quo. Thanks for the constructive feedback and not blasting hate my direction.
 
Makes a great bumper sticker. Potential to yield populist votes too. But even countries with a deep "safety net" understand heavily taxing companies is counter productive. Ratcheting up the corp. tax burden does nothing to increase net tax revenue because it tends slows spending (goods & services cost more to pay for the tax) and decreases employment (when sales slow employees must go).

Companies are a conduit for employment, innovation, are why people have food on the table & phones in their pocket. Are companies perfect? No, because they are run by people. But I don't understand the generic hate for them as a class. It's easy to pick on them but good tax policy should be balanced between revenue & productivity. History has shown when you lower burdens tax revenue rises. It's looks comparable to a healthy supply/demand curve.

The tax corps to hell rant on the left is as unrealistic & shallow as the build a wall and make Mexico pay for it by Trumpists.
 
Corporations are false individuals. Regardless of whether they are taxed or not, the individual rights of natural persons are a totally separate issue. Also, the IRS and the Federal Reserve are private corporations, as is the federal government called "The United States of America". This is not conspiracy theory. It is conspiracy actuality.
My tea hasn't kicked in yet. I can't English. And I'm too grumpy to try and make sense of that right now. Talking about taxes in the morning. WTH was I thinking?
 
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As to Woz 50% income tax, that's simply not correct. the maximum for ordinary income is 39.6%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Marginal_tax_rates_for_2016

You neglect to imagine that he may be including more than just federal taxes in his estimate.

CA income taxes max out at a 13.3% marginal rate, and you can bet that he also pays a nice property tax and sales tax bill every year too. Couple a 52.9% marginal rate (which could be all he was talking about) with that other stuff and it adds up!

B
 
I saw him this morning at Heathrow T5.
If he's still gets an income from shares, they generally tax at 50%
 
And if you don't want to be simplistic, then you have to admit that business consists of more than just the owners and shareholders. It also consists of employees, customers/consumers, AND the society that the business operates within. There's a reason that Apple has more stores in developed countries than undeveloped ones.

Yes, but having stores in developed countries without paying appropriate levels of corporate taxation means that Apple (and similar companies) are benefitting from the security, stability (political and socio-economic, cultural and ethnic stability) of a stable, comfortable - and usually democratic - society without contributing anything to the cost of ensuring that these societies are able to continue to remain so.

In other words, wealthy multinational corporations - such as Apple - frequently behave as though they had no responsibility to contribute to conditions that ensure continued financial stability in the countries where they do business.

These are conditions - often hard won - such as the protection accorded to the law of contract, eventual controls and limits on the power of sovereigns - that have evolved over many centuries of political and economic development, and the consequent, or subsequent, development of representative forms of the expression of political power - in other words, elected assemblies with a growing power to tax and legislate, and thus, extend the freedoms enjoyed by the population who elected them - often followed in their wake.

In essence, many of these corporations want the advantages of a modern western democracy - the sort that guarantees market stability and financial security - with the winsome lack of regulation you find in micro states run along the lines of professional kleptocracies where casino economics replace rigorous public policy. They want the security of a western market framework, - preferably deregulated - along with the lack of oversight found in those funny little islands or micro states where the laundering and rolling over of money is a profitable enterprise.

With the growth of multinational corporations, national legislation - and national governments - is often - and are often - quite inadequate to ensure compliance let alone a degree of accountability or control of some of these companies.

Indeed, some of these corporations are now so wealthy and powerful - and unaccountable to anyone save themselves and their shareholders - that they seek to persuade, dictate and occasionally bribe or bully elected governments to carry out policies beneficial to them.

There is no reason on earth for Governments to have to subordinate public policy to the needs of powerful multinational corporations; Governments are answerable to their citizens, - via the ballot box - and their role is public policy and the public good - whereas corporations are answerable to none but their shareholders, and there is no reason whatsoever for this to be elevated to a principle that supersedes public policy.

If such corporations want the benefits of a safe, secure, and stable economic environment in which to generate profit, I can see no reason on earth why they shouldn't pay for it. Handsomely. Their taxes may help secure such an environment, not least the sort of environment where citizens may be able to afford to purchase their products.

I suppose that this is one of those issues where there are stark differences of opinion on Both Sides Of The Pond.

My sense - not least reading this thread - is that many Americans view Government with suspicion but have a positive and bizarrely benign view of corporations; in Europe, we tend to be more suspicious of corporations, and see Government in a more benevolent light.

However, having said that, I do think that the US is a more dangerously divided society - in class terms - than it has been for a long time. Compelling those bodies which benefit from the advantages of such societies to pay their fair share of taxes will - to my mind at least - perhaps contribute to helping to make the US a less unequal society, with better life chances for those who are less well off.

Hence, my complete approval of Mr Wozniak's attempts to start a debate on this matter, with these remarks.
 
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Some people in government are corrupt. True. They need to be moved on.
But, this doesn't mean companies shouldn't be paying tax properly.
One hopes individuals such as Sanders are elected to the presidency and the corrupt individuals start getting weeded out and put out into the compost.
I'm not against citizens paying their "fair share" of taxes. I'm not against corporations also paying their "fair share" of taxes. But to expect either citizens or corporations to give up HALF (50%) of their earnings to the government… is crazy-stupid unfair. Unless, of course, you live in a communist nation like North Korea, in which case it's perfectly normal for the government to take whatever you have or earned. See perfect example below (CNN article).

Long days, no money and no escape: Life of a North Korean migrant worker. Regime confiscates nearly 90% of worker pay to fund Nuclear Program and Kim's Extravagant Lifestyle
 
Wonder what would happen if everyone did the same as the wealthy? How fast would the government move to create laws banning this practice if the masses started using these loopholes to pay next to nothing in taxes???
 
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