Stick or Automatic Transmission?

[Whyren]

Anyway, a quick question for our stateside friends. In the U.S. is there a separate test for Automatics and Manuals? if you pass your test in an automatic, even though the driver may have no clue as to how to drive a manual gearbox can they legally drive one without having any lessons or evening passing a test in one?

I was one of the lucky ones to have to take a driving test...three times because I'm not sure the tester knew how to drive manual. Now, I may be completely wrong about this, but according to him, about a block from stopping, I needed to downshift to a low gear (say 2nd or even 1st), then coast the rest of the way to the stop.

 

[howard]

stick shift all the way.

I get so bored in an automatic. I think i would also be more accident prone. With a stick shift I feel much more in tune with what is going on around me.

I drive a cheap old ford escort, but its a stick, and its more fun to drive than my moms saab which is twice as fast.

plus there cheaper, get better acceleration and better gas mileage (from my experience)

also, its the weird this to get in an automatic, slam your left foot down and hit nothing!

 

[howard]

On another note, how many people actually keep the clutch pushed in when they are at a light, or just waiting while the engine is on. I've been taught that the only time to have the foot on the clutch is when you're actually shifting or else it causes excessive wear on the clutch. (this is coming from mechanics in the family).

I used to do this, put the clutch in while the engine is idleing. recently though I've just naturally been thowing it in neutral just cause its easier. i didn't know that it was actually technically better for your car too.

It also annoys me when people think they can just jump gears cuz they think it will save them gas, i.e. start in 2nd and go to 4 then to 5 or some combination. I can understand those that are going into 5th when they are going slower but at least don't try to accelerate quickly. Its worse for an engine to pushed at the low end than the high end.

is this really true? cause usually I push the car in the lower end quite a bit... like during this slow slow rolls i usually start up in 2nd. but i always switch to a lower gear when i need the power.

I also skip gears, just natrually. like if i accelerate up to 35 in 2nd and then put it in 4th just cause i know i'm gonna be going 35 for awhile, and being in third is just gonna run the engine higher..... so what is the right way??

 

[iGav]

I was taught that you don't touch the clutch cuz then engine helps slow the car.

Which is the correct way...

I'm can't believe the number of people I see that put the clutch in as soon as they start braking, it's the same on those Accidental Claims Helplines ad's you get on telly, they show the driver burying the brake and clutch pedal at the same time, and there's me thinking... 'no wonder they've had an accident'

 

[howard]

so heres a question for the mechanics:

does the car use more gas when its in a low gear and high rpm or when its in a high gear low rpm but our pressing the gas pedal more. ..did that make any sense?

what i'm trying to ask is is it better to drive in 3rd or 4th when your going 35-45 and have the engine in a higher rpm, or is it better to be in 5th the whole time?

also... when I accelerate and get up to 4-5000rpm my car moans in pain and suffering... so I hardly ever get past that even the the redline is much higher. is it good to sometimes run your car up there?

 

[iGav]

is this really true?.

Yep, puts more stress on the engine. That's why cars have gears (I don't mean that to be as patronising as it sounds by the way).

according to him, about a block from stopping, I needed to downshift to a low gear (say 2nd or even 1st), then coast the rest of the way to the stop.

As you're braking you should be changing down THROUGH ALL the gears, 4th to 3rd, then 2nd until you come to a stop. You shouldn't really try shifting into 1st whilst the car is moving at any significant speed.

 

[howard]

Yep, puts more stress on the engine. That's why cars have gears (I don't mean that to be as patronising as it sounds by the way).

ok, thanks for clearing that up. I always thought that the original purpose for gears was basically to get more power at higher speeds, rather than to relieve stress on the engine... or maybe they do both and one is the reason for the other??... sorry i'm not much of a mechanic.

As you're braking you should be changing down THROUGH ALL the gears, 4th to 3rd, then 2nd until you come to a stop. You shouldn't really try shifting into 1st whilst the car is moving at any significant speed.

One thing I don't get is if you should be changing through all the gears, your going to be pressing in the brake and clutch at the same time quite often right?

sometimes I change through all of them, sometimes I skip, it all depends on the quickness of stop and my mood. I guess thats one of the reasons I like stick... you can drive it how you want. certain ways might be better or worse, but you have the choice to drive it differently every time.

One thing that annoys me though about stick is when your not moving on the freeway and you have to drive forward a few yards and you never fully let the clutch out. that bugs me and i don't know a way around it.

 

[iGav]

they do both and one is the reason for the other??

Basically they do. Think about riding a bike... when you're in a higher gear, but at a lower speed it puts more stress on your muscles to accelerate than if you were in a lower gear for example. Gears optimise the potential of the engine for different conditions.

your going to be pressing in the brake and clutch at the same time quite often right?

If you do it properly (and there is no one behind you of course) you don't need to use the brake at all, but changing down through the gears is the correct way to do it when you're coming to a stop... engine braking helps slow the car in a controlled manner, but it also helps ensure that you're in the correct gear if you need to take for example avoiding action and need to accelerate VERY quickly.

certain ways might be better or worse, but you have the choice to drive it differently every time.

Exactly, there's no fun in driving 'correctly' all the time it's fun to experiment.

One thing that annoys me though about stick is when your not moving on the freeway and you have to drive forward a few yards and you never fully let the clutch out. that bugs me and i don't know a way around it.

That's exactly the conditions where a conventional automatic is king, either that or the new adaptive stop/start cruise control that Mercedes and BMW have developed that do it all automatically and you just sit there watching the TV in the dash. heheh.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

If you do it properly (and there is no one behind you of course) you don't need to use the brake at all, but changing down through the gears is the correct way to do it when you're coming to a stop... engine braking helps slow the car in a controlled manner, but it also helps ensure that you're in the correct gear if you need to take for example avoiding action and need to accelerate VERY quickly.

most of the people I discuss this with tell me that they never engine brake "because it wears out the engine and wastes gas". I suppose it is less fuel efficient but when driving on highways and in crowded rush-hour traffic the last thing I want to to is be in neutral and at idle speed when I need to get out of some idiot's way that isn't paying attention.

I've gotten into the habit of heel-toe downshifting and double clutching like I'm Steve McQueen.

That's exactly the conditions where a conventional automatic is king, either that or the new adaptive stop/start cruise control that Mercedes and BMW have developed that do it all automatically and you just sit there watching the TV in the dash. heheh.

I too hate it when I'm stuck in traffic and the everybody is creeping along at a speed just under the slowest speed I can manage in first. In my mind I can see the pressure plate and flywheel being slowly worn away to nothing as I feather the clutch....

 

[Roger1]

And of course, there's going up hills where automatics always seem to shift at the wrong time.....

You mean like this?:
waaa(downshift)WAAAAAA!!(upshift)waaaa(downshift)WAAAAAA!!(upshift)waaaa(downshift)WAAAAAA!!(upshift)waaaa(downshift)WAAAAAA!!(upshift)waaaa

 

[iGav]

most of the people I discuss this with tell me that they never engine brake "because it wears out the engine and wastes gas".

I wouldn't worry about it mate, they're probably also the sort that put the clutch in with the brake too. heheheh.

I suppose it is less fuel efficient

It's marginal at best.

In my mind I can see the pressure plate and flywheel being slowly worn away to nothinh as I feather the clutch....

Hahahahahahahahaha It's a killer isn't it...

 

[iGav]

You mean like this?:
waaa(downshift)WAAAAAA!!(upshift)waaaa(downshift)WAAAAAA!!(upshift)waaaa(downshift)WAAAAAA!!(upshift)waaaa(downshift)WAAAAAA!!(upshift)waaaa

heheheheh, the ones with fuzzy logic (INVECS etc) are best, especially if you drive a car whose owner is VERY careful, man it's like the car's a pensioner too!!! heheh. It takes a few miles of spirited driving to change it's attitude I can tell you. heheh.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Actually the thing that really slays me is when you witness some riceboy with a badly pimped-out car "shift" his automatic transmission by slamming it from "D1" into "D2" and then finally into overdrive. They actually think that it makes the car go faster. I guess it does, since by blowing pieces of the transmission out onto the road the car becomes lighter...

 

[Whyren]

As you're braking you should be changing down THROUGH ALL the gears, 4th to 3rd, then 2nd until you come to a stop. You shouldn't really try shifting into 1st whilst the car is moving at any significant speed.

Huh...didn't actually know that. I mostly just brake, then put the clutch in at the stop before switching to neutral. I guess that would be somewhat unsafe in an emergency. I don't get why he said to downshift to 1st that far from the stop though.

Oh well, I still prefer driving a stick. I always have fun being easily able to, on the freeway entrance, out-accelerate these supposed powerful, brand-new, top-of-the-line, monster SUVs in my 20-year-old imported sedan.

 

[radiantm3]

I've gotten into the habit of heel-toe downshifting and double clutching like I'm Steve McQueen.

I double clutch and rev-match on all my downshifts too. Gotta love the smooth downshifts. <--And with this method you can smoothly and safely downshift into 2nd and even 1st if necessary.

I haven't gotten down heel-toe shifting yet because my right leg doesn't want to twist.

 

[EJBasile]

SUVs, Large Cars = Auto
Small Sporty Cars = Manual

Tiptronic is so stupid. Its nothing like driving a standard.

OMG! Yesterday I drove my friends brand new Honda S2000. I LOVE it. I have never really owned a little sports car and I've never really ridden in that many, but that is the coolest car ever. 0-60 in 5.9 seconds

 

[radiantm3]

SUVs, Large Cars = Auto
Small Sporty Cars = Manual

Tiptronic is so stupid. Its nothing like driving a standard.

OMG! Yesterday I drove my friends brand new Honda S2000. I LOVE it. I have never really owned a little sports car and I've never really ridden in that many, but that is the coolest car ever. 0-60 in 5.9 seconds

0-60 in 5.9 seconds is very slow. Nonetheless, my next car is going to be an S2000. That car drives like a a dream (and at an affordable price).

 

[saabmp3]

As you're braking you should be changing down THROUGH ALL the gears, 4th to 3rd, then 2nd until you come to a stop. You shouldn't really try shifting into 1st whilst the car is moving at any significant speed.

iGav, I bet you go through alot of clutches like that. The best advice I've heard in regards to stopping it to keep the car in a lower gear (say 2nd or 3rd) which you can really take almost all the way down to a stop. That way if you need to accelerate suddenly and unexpectitly, although not advisible, you can do it. Going through all of the gears down is just going to rev your engine up and double the speed of which you go through your clutch.

When stopped at a light, the best practice is to put the car in netural and keep your foot off the clutch. I've actually heard that it is illegal in some states to use the parking brake at a light because you don't have total control over the vehicle. Anyways, pushing the clutch in all the time does absolutly no damage to the actual clutch plates as long as they are not touching. What does get ruined is the throw out bearings of the clutch. Basically, once you trash your throw out bearings, the cost of putting a new clutch in in parts makes it stupid not to replace the whole assembly.

Skipping gears is actually not a big deal at all. Many automatic tranny's start in 2nd (which is a bad idea in a stick), and then skip to 4th. Starting in 2nd just means you have to slip the clutch plates longer to get the engine past a bucking stage. If you get the car up to an acceptable speed in 2nd and then realize that you dont' need to accelerate any longer, going straight to 4th is normal for the gear box to encounter.

Huh...didn't actually know that. I mostly just brake, then put the clutch in at the stop before switching to neutral. I guess that would be somewhat unsafe in an emergency. I don't get why he said to downshift to 1st that far from the stop though.

Shifting to 1st while your moving is generally bad for the tranny in most situations. Because of the lower synchro gears in 1st (to facilitate getting into 1st while stopped), you need some fresh gear box oil to do this without jerking the car.

All of this advice is obvisously given for cars with synchro's. I have a 1968 AH without a synchro on the 1st gear (either never came with one of it blew out over the past 40 years). That car will no go into first unless dead stopped. No amount of double clutching will convince it to do otherwise.

BEN

 

[radiantm3]

Shifting to 1st while your moving is generally bad for the tranny in most situations. Because of the lower synchro gears in 1st (to facilitate getting into 1st while stopped), you need some fresh gear box oil to do this without jerking the car.


BEN

That's why you double-clutch + rev match when downshifting. You can shift to any gear because you are matching the clutch and flywheel rotation speeds before they engage. You also put a lot less strain on your transmission.

Proper downshift (for the least amount of strain on your transmission):
- Press the clutch in
- Put it in neutral
- Depress the clutch completely
- Blip the throttle to match lower gears intended rpm (takes practice)
- Press the clutch in again
- Shift into lower gear
- Depress clutch

It takes practice to do it, but once you learn it it becomes second nature and you can do all of that just as fast as most people shift normally. You also get very smooth downshifts with very little stress on the tranny. This is how race drivers downshift. When cornering and downshifting they actually use this technique while doing heel-toe. I was forced to learn this because my 2nd gear synchros are shot and I wasn't able to downshift from 3rd to 2nd without a horrible grind. With this technique it goes in like butter.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

iGav, I bet you go through alot of clutches like that. The best advice I've heard in regards to stopping it to keep the car in a lower gear (say 2nd or 3rd) which you can really take almost all the way down to a stop. That way if you need to accelerate suddenly and unexpectitly, although not advisible, you can do it. Going through all of the gears down is just going to rev your engine up and double the speed of which you go through your clutch.

It depends how precise you are - shifting down four gears carefully will wear the clutch far less than slipping it a lot when starting from a standstill. I worry more about the synchros than the pressure plate and flywheel in these situations. The gearbox on my Nissan Altima is a bit clunky, and sometimes you can't move it fast enough to match revs nicely.

Skipping gears is actually not a big deal at all. Many automatic tranny's start in 2nd (which is a bad idea in a stick), and then skip to 4th. Starting in 2nd just means you have to slip the clutch plates longer to get the engine past a bucking stage. If you get the car up to an acceptable speed in 2nd and then realize that you dont' need to accelerate any longer, going straight to 4th is normal for the gear box to encounter.

I often go from 2nd to 4th when pulling out onto 35mhp roads.

Shifting to 1st while your moving is generally bad for the tranny in most situations. Because of the lower synchro gears in 1st (to facilitate getting into 1st while stopped), you need some fresh gear box oil to do this without jerking the car.

All of this advice is obvisously given for cars with synchro's. I have a 1968 AH without a synchro on the 1st gear (either never came with one of it blew out over the past 40 years). That car will no go into first unless dead stopped. No amount of double clutching will convince it to do otherwise.

My Altima can't be downshifted into first over about 5mph. Which is fione, since the engine is torquey enough to pull the car along in second gear at low speeds

That's why you double-clutch + rev match when downshifting. You can shift to any gear because you are matching the clutch and flywheel rotation speeds before they engage. You also put a lot less strain on your transmission.

Proper downshift (for the least amount of strain on your transmission):
...

Unfortunately this is difficult to do in some cars with heavy flywheels because the revs refuse to drop quickly enough for a timely shift. My Toyota pickup was like that - its flywheel was so heavy you could actually start from a standstill on level ground simply by putting the car in first and letting the clutch out . No need to get on the throttle!

 

[radiantm3]

My Toyota pickup was like that - its flywheel was so heavy you could actually start from a standstill on level ground simply by putting the car in first and letting the clutch out . No need to get on the throttle!

That's awesome.

 

[DakotaGuy]

I would much rather drive an automatic and I own one, but I learned to drive on a standard transmission. I think everyone should know how to drive a manual even if they own an automatic.

 

[dops7107]

Interesting thread. I drive a manual/stick and think I will always buy one. Mainly this is because I enjoy the additional control over my driving style. I can plonk it into fifth when I no longer wish to accelerate, or I am coming to a stop some way into the distance. They are cheaper to buy, and probably cheaper to run, depending on your driving style. Plus they burn less fuel. Having said that, I have once driven an automatic Mercedes and it was a pleasure. Could have been something to do with it being by far the best car that I've driven in many respects, however.

[rant]On a related point - when it comes to fuel efficiency, I think driving style is much more significant than the mode of transmission. Accelerating towards red lights really winds me up - don't people care about their wallets? And in this regard, bus drivers are the worst. Full throttle towards red lights or the next bus stop, then straight on the brakes. Whatever happened to coasting? (Or, for that matter, the comfort of passengers!) I bet it makes next-to-no difference to bus punctuality.[/rant]

 

[radiantm3]

Having said that, I have once driven an automatic Mercedes and it was a pleasure. Could have been something to do with it being by far the best car that I've driven in many respects, however.

I borrowed a friend's Mercedes S500 for my wedding. Nice car, but it was horrible to drive. I felt like I was driving a Yacht.

 

[dops7107]

I borrowed a friend's Mercedes S500 for my wedding. Nice car, but it was horrible to drive. I felt like I was driving a Yacht.

Funny you say that, they are basically executive barges. Huge and enviously expensive. I drove a mere C-class!

Incidentally, I currently drive a Daihatsu Charade, the most undervalued vehicle I know