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Even with hours spent - daily - doing weight & other exercises, human organs undergo changes over a period of time in space; blood flow alters, blood composition changes, the heart is enlarged, muscles waste, etc, etc.

Stanley Kubrick had all this figured in the movie 2001 - A Space Odyssey.

They simulate gravity by centrifugal force.

And you better make future generation space ships large, because I believe that we will have to have many generations born aboard ship, to pilot it beyond of our Solar System.
 
Stanley Kubrick had all this figured in the movie 2001 - A Space Odyssey.

They simulate gravity by centrifugal force.

And you better make future generation space ships large, because I believe that we will have to have many generations born aboard ship, to pilot it beyond of our Solar System.

I remember seeing 2001 A Space Odyssey years ago, an excellent and imaginative movie, but more recently, a few years ago, I read a fascinating article on the effects of prolonged living in weightless environments on the human body which discussed Russian experience in the matter; some of the stuff was pretty unnerving and it served to remind me that we evolved to cope with our specific environment here on Earth and either have to change ourselves, or our environment, if we are to embark on extensive and lengthy space travel. We're a long way yet from "Warp 1", let alone "Warp 9".


And yet, ironically, modern day USA owes him much.

Yes, indeed, but the US space programme would never have been accelerated without the fright given to the US establishment by the Soviet development of Sputnik, the putting into orbit of Laika, etc.

Nonetheless, I'm with iJohnHenry on this. Notwithstanding everything, I still think he lacked a moral compass - the V2 rocket programme in Germany used prison camp slave labour for example - and I'd argue that it is disturbingly instructive to compare and contrast the lives and experiences of Werner Von Braun and Sergei Korolev as well as their respective scientific careers. While Von Braun had used slave labour, Korolev had actually suffered brutal, vicious and vindictive treatment while imprisoned in the grotesque Gulag system during Stalin's sustained bout of murderous paranoia when he unleashed his purges on his own society in the late 1930s.

Cheers
 
Nonetheless, I'm with iJohnHenry on this. Notwithstanding everything, I still think he lacked a moral compass - the V2 rocket programme in Germany used prison camp slave labour for example - and I'd argue that it is disturbingly instructive to compare and contrast the lives and experiences of Werner Von Braun and Sergei Korolev as well as their respective scientific careers. While Von Braun had used slave labour, Korolev had actually suffered brutal, vicious and vindictive treatment while imprisoned in the grotesque Gulag system during Stalin's sustained bout of murderous paranoia when he unleashed his purges on his own society in the late 1930s.

Was it Von Braun's call to use slave labor to build it?

I know he hated war and didn't like that his V2 was being used for military purposes. He also hated how the US had him develop rockets for military use as well, but knew it would eventually would lead him to his goal of building rockets to get men into outer space.
 
Was it Von Braun's call to use slave labor to build it?

I know he hated war and didn't like that his V2 was being used for military purposes. He also hated how the US had him develop rockets for military use as well, but knew it would eventually would lead him to his goal of building rockets to get men into outer space.

Yes, well......I think he "doth protest too much" post-war, regarding war and indeed, the use and abuse of slave labour. At the time, he made no protest, or did not seek free, or paid labour instead. Subsequently he argued (a tad unconvincingly, in my view) that he hadn't known that slave labour was used. I don't believe that for a minute. That sort of amnesia was not uncommon among the more educated and sophisticated of the German and Nazi elite in the immediate aftermath of the war and succeeding years (for example, think of Albert Speer, who went out of his way to see to it that Werner Von Braun received whatever labour requirements his slave factories had. Conditions in these places were atrocious, not merely bad.)

Of course Von Braun never demanded slave labour - in order to achieve his main goal - a state supported and funded rocket development programme - he asked for and received whatever was available - which was slave labour, people who were, quite literally, worked to death - and worked with that. His primary aim was to build his rockets and get them off the ground. But, in order to achieve that goal, he was prepared to do whatever was required. My sense of him is that he had no major problem with the whole idea and ideological goals of the New World Order under the Third Reich and how it might be achieved. He was a very clever, unusually well-educated aristocrat, on top of that particular social and cultural pile, so why should he complain about state support in the form of slave labour? I don't think he saw anything wrong with it at any level. That is not to say he was a sadist; far from it; he was a cultured technocrat, oblivious to human concerns. His aim was to reach for the sky.

Subsequently, of course he was never going to admit to these attitudes, (especially not when he was funded by the US) and he may have well - in the light of the complete military, economic, political, social, civic and moral collapse of Nazi Germany at the end of the war - done a fundamental rethink or reappraisal of some of his attitudes.

His views may well have evolved by the 1960s; Albert Speer's certainly did. But that in no way excuses the atrocities both allowed to happen on their respective watches earlier.

Cheers
 
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(marc) said:
Too bad the US wastes money on illegal warfare rather than on science, like back in the days. :(

As much as I love NASA's glory years of the Apollo program, while publicly it was for science, NASA really was developing ICBM's for the military.
 
As much as I love NASA's glory years of the Apollo program, while publicly it was for science, NASA really was developing ICBM's for the military.


It has been this way for centuries.

Military 'requirements' drive invention, and then they trickle down to society in general.
 
1) I was at what was supposed to be the last launch of Atlantis last year. The experience in person from the causeway on NASA's property is incredible.
2) We are in the same situation with NASA as we were in the 70's. Post big-program, without money or a visionary goal to proceed.
3) It's sad that this thread has turned from a celebration an era as it comes to an end into a political diatribe.
 
It has been this way for centuries.

Military 'requirements' drive invention, and then they trickle down to society in general.

True, alas.

1) I was at what was supposed to be the last launch of Atlantis last year. The experience in person from the causeway on NASA's property is incredible.
2) We are in the same situation with NASA as we were in the 70's. Post big-program, without money or a visionary goal to proceed.
3) It's sad that this thread has turned from a celebration an era as it comes to an end into a political diatribe.

With respect, if you had read my previous posts, you will have seen that I, too, am something of a space travel romantic. At one level, I am sorry that it has ended for now, and I truly envy you the experience of having been fortunate enough to witness the launch of the Atlantis space shuttle last year. You are lucky to have the memory, and it is something I wish I had the opportunity to witness myself.

However, and it is a big however, one cannot escape context, especially political and historical context in a programme which has cost so much, and which, as a consequence, has derived, and been mainly driven by, political choices. That is an observation, not a diatribe.

In any case, the "political" observations arose when *LTD* remarked that Werner Von Braun "is up there somewhere....in tears" and iJohnHenry and I both independently suggested that his current location might be rather different, a suggestion which arose because of our knowledge of his history.
Rockets built on slave labour might be an astounding scientific achievement but there is a morally rotten dimension to this tale as well which would be grossly unfair to overlook.

Cheers
 
However, and it is a big however, one cannot escape context, especially political and historical context in a programme which has cost so much, and which, as a consequence, has derived, and been mainly driven by, political choices. That is an observation, not a diatribe.

I still maintain that the program hasn't cost that much. Over it's 30 year history, the program only cost around $43 billion if what I read was accurate(wikipedia). That's a pinprick amount over the course of 30 years. The human cost is great with Challenger and Columbia, but that is a risk these people(including myself) gladly accept to take to go into space( not to mention Challenger and Columbia were both preventable. Well Columbia would have been lost, but the crew could have been saved).

But watching a Shuttle go up is amazing. I was finally able to get away from school and witness my first Shuttle launch after living in FL for 3 years. Went to see Endeavour go up for STS-134 and I loved it. You first see the Shuttle go up and after it went above the clouds, one minute later you heard the sound of the SRB's.

web.jpg
 
So it's going to look like it did in the Apollo days? Interesting
We are going back in time, big rockets little capsules and almost no capability to do much. What a disappointment this is if you were around 40 years ago seeing this same stuff. Obama says we need to push envelope with new technology and ideas and he 100% correct. An apollo redo is such a disappointment.
 
I still maintain that the program hasn't cost that much. Over it's 30 year history, the program only cost around $43 billion if what I read was accurate(wikipedia). That's a pinprick amount over the course of 30 years. The human cost is great with Challenger and Columbia, but that is a risk these people(including myself) gladly accept to take to go into space( not to mention Challenger and Columbia were both preventable. Well Columbia would have been lost, but the crew could have been saved).

But watching a Shuttle go up is amazing. I was finally able to get away from school and witness my first Shuttle launch after living in FL for 3 years. Went to see Endeavour go up for STS-134 and I loved it. You first see the Shuttle go up and after it went above the clouds, one minute later you heard the sound of the SRB's.

web.jpg

Actually, I agree with you in terms of cost over a 30 year period, but, in a democracy, elected elites are considered accountable for what they choose to do with public monies. Autocratic regimes are different, which is why the Soviet Union never had to answer for the resources they poured into such programmes.

This is not the 1960s, and the public's interest is less than it was in space exploration. There are probably a number of reasons for that; the nature of what has been explored and discovered is less exciting than racing to the moon, for example; perhaps, too, it is more complex and thus difficult to explain in a culture of sound-bites; maybe, of necessity, it is supposed to remain secret, and possibly not as many people and youngsters are as au-fait with the vocabulary of science. The gap between what the "general public" knows and understand and what the "specialists" know may have grown wider with the years, and few seem willing to attempt to bridge it (a lack on the part of the media and educational establishments).

Besides, the shuttle programme itself could have done more to explain what it had achieved in terms of discoveries, inventions and questions asked and answered; I have long been surprised that more wasn't done to highlight was had been done and what would be examined in the future. Properly handled, it would be very exciting and interesting.

Re Challenger and Columbia, they were not the only casualties; if memory serves, Apollo 1 was a disaster. With that sort of exploration and cutting edge experience, tragedies and accidents sometimes happen. I'm in agreement with you on this, as it is a risk I'd have been more than willing to take as well.

Anyway, as I posted to eawmp1, I'm truly envious (and impressed) that you were fortunate enough to have managed to witness this; it is something I would have loved to have seen for myself.

Cheers
 
Actually, I agree with you in terms of cost over a 30 year period, but, in a democracy, elected elites are considered accountable for what they choose to do with public monies. Autocratic regimes are different, which is why the Soviet Union never had to answer for the resources they poured into such programmes.


I am of the opinion that the majority are completely stupid. They wouldn't know the contributions that NASA has provided for them on Earth if it bit them in the face..... I wonder how many people know they have NASA to thank for their tempur-pedic foam mattresses. :p



Re Challenger and Columbia, they were not the only casualties; if memory serves, Apollo 1 was a disaster. With that sort of exploration and cutting edge experience, tragedies and accidents sometimes happen. I'm in agreement with you on this, as it is a risk I'd have been more than willing to take as well.

Oh I know that Challenger and Columbia weren't the only casualties, but I was just focusing on the Shuttle era. Apollo 1 to my knowledge wasn't that preventable. It would have been nice to know that there was a defect in the CM and all, but I am not aware of any hazardous attitudes that were present that put the mission ahead of their lives.

Where in Challenger's case, NASA managers were squashing engineers concerns about the O-ring. The engineers were practically going, " The Shuttle can't launch in these cold temperatures", but the managers wanted to get the Shuttle off because of its previous delays. The engineers were actually relieved when Challenger cleared the tower. They thought if it was going to blow, it would be as soon as they lit it off. Sadly, those thoughts of relief were short lived as their fears were correct.....

With Columbia, while the falling foam was a design flaw, complacency set in. Again people wanted to get satellite images and/or a space walk to inspect Columbia's left wing. But, since the Shuttle has always survived foam impact's before( though never the size of the one that hit Columbia), managers didn't want to waste money on taking satellite images of Columbia or doing an unnecessary space walk. Now if they did discover the hole in Columbia's wing, Atlantis was ready to launch for her mission after Columbia. They could have sent up Atlantis to rescue the crew and Houston would remotely send Columbia into the Pacific Ocean( at the time they didn't have the ability to land an orbiter remotely, only de-orbit it and send it into an ocean, but since Columbia they do now). Again, hazardous attitudes caused this loss of life accident.

Though I wish Columbia survived. After that mission in 2003, it's next mission would have been in 2010 to bring Hubble back to Earth. This is another tragedy in the making with the retirement of the Space Shuttle. We're going to lose Hubble as it burns up in the atmosphere when it should have been saved to go into a museum.
 
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Rockets built on slave labour might be an astounding scientific achievement but there is a morally rotten dimension to this tale as well which would be grossly unfair to overlook.

Von Braun was no angel.

However, I'll postulate most of civilization heretofore has been built on slave labor.

And NASA's internal structure and managerial incompetence in the manned space arena had more to do with the cancelklation of Constellation. It was not the fault of any one presidential administration.
 
Beautiful take-off!

Watched that at work just now on my iPhone streaming from uStream. I had the whole office gathered around my little 3.5inch screen lol
 
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