Studio Ultra - Simultaneous use of Bus Powered TB devices limited? (title edited)

[Falcon_64]

Today I discovered that I cannot connect more then three thunderbolt drives (and the BenQ display using USBC) to my Studio Ultra. On the back four ports, I have connected:

1. BenQ SW321C
2. ProGrade TB3 CF Express card reader
3. & 4. Orico TB4 enclosure w/Samsung 980 Pro NVMe SSD

If I connect one more TB drive to the front ports, it won't mount. Instead I get this notification:

The problem is not with the front ports specifically. I tried many combinations of drives and ports...consistently the fourth TB device generates the error whichever port it's connected to.

With three ports populated with TB drives, I can still connect USB devices to the remaining two ports. I can also populate every port with USB devices.

So I'm really confused what is going on here. Clearly the Studio has enough power available to it with its 370W power supply, what gives?

 

[chabig]

If I connect one more TB drive to the front ports, it won't mount

That might be because the front ports aren't Thunderbolt. They are just USB ports. Try connecting your Thunderbolt drives to the rear ports and connect your CF Express card reader to a front port.

 

[Falcon_64]

That might be because the front ports aren't Thunderbolt. They are just USB ports. Try connecting your Thunderbolt drives to the rear ports and connect your CF Express card reader to a front port.

My Studio has the M1 Ultra, all the ports are Thunderbolt.

 

[chabig]

Yes of course. I stand corrected. I've got nothing then. Hopefully someone else knows.

 

[lcubed]

wondering how much power items 3 & 4 are actually drawing
3. & 4. Orico TB4 enclosure w/Samsung 980 Pro NVMe SSD

 

[Falcon_64]

I dunno...nor do know power draw of the two Trebleet enclosures using Sabrent and WD SSD's. The card reader doesn't even need to have a card in it, so it's not doing anything and still it contributes to the issue.

I really don't understand how the TB bus works, each port has it's own according to System Report, so I guess I expected each port to be powered independently. Clearly they aren't drawing more than the power supply can provide, so that's why I'm confused how the ports affect each other this way.

Hopefully the brains will show up soon and shed some light.

 

[darthaddie]

So the M1 Ultra has six channels of thunderbolt.

I have all 5 ports populated

1. USB C connection to EIZO 4k montior
2. USB C to DisplayPort to my Asus 4k 144hz Monitor
3. TB3 connection to Trebleet RAID with 2 NVME drives, 4TB total and a USBC out of the Trebleet to a 500GB nvme
4. USB C to Topping DX3+ DAC
5. TB3 to Sabrent 2TB NVME
6. Prograde SD card reader

Everything works great and I get full bandwidth. Is something drawing more power than expected? Could you try disconnecting the Orico and add a couple more drives to test? Could also be a faulty cable or the drive which gives this error is drawing more power than the port can provide.

 

[Falcon_64]

Hi, thanks for the ideas and detailed response. I see that while you've got all your ports populated, only two are with Thunderbolt devices. in that scenario I have no problems either. Sorry I'm not able to describe my issue more clearly.

All of my ports are fully functional, and I can use them all simultaneously with one caveat - I cannot use four Thunderbolt devices at the same time. I've spent some time using every USB & Thunderbolt device I have in varying combinations. Every device works in every port individually. I can use three TB drives and two USB drives all day long in any combination of ports.

More than one person identified the Orico as a possible problem device, so allow me to clarify that it doesn't matter which three ports are populated or which TB devices they are populated with, the fourth TB device (Orico, Trebleet, or ProGrade - doesn't matter) will either generate the error or simply not power up (LED doesn't light up). I have used different cables, but the result is the same.

Since the issue presents regardless of which combination of devices, cables or ports are used, the only constant I can find is the Studio itself. Despite having 6 independent channels for data, it seems to me that power to each port is not independent. If an individual device was drawing too much power, I would expect the issue to follow that device to any port without regard to what is connected to other ports? Does that make sense?

In other words, my expectation is that every TB4 port would be capable of providing not only full 40Gbps bandwidth, but full power to bus powered accessories (I believe the spec is up to 15W per port). The behavior I'm seeing seems to indicate that my assumption regarding power is incorrect and the TB4 ports are not capable of providing power to four TB devices simultaneously. USB, yes, TB no.

I need to report this to Apple somehow, but I dread having to explain this to someone over the phone. Probably I'll make a Genius Bar appointment - I can demonstrate easily what I find challenging to articulate thoroughly. At least this isn't an iMac - what a pain that was to lug to the Genius Bar!

 

[F-Train]

I need to report this to Apple somehow, but I dread having to explain this to someone over the phone. Probably I'll make a Genius Bar appointment - I can demonstrate easily what I find challenging to articulate thoroughly. At least this isn't an iMac - what a pain that was to lug to the Genius Bar!

I, and I'm sure others, will be interested in what you find out. I wonder whether a call to Apple support would get an answer. Leaving aside your testing, the power delivery question itself is pretty straightforward.

 

[Chancha]

On my 14” MBP I got a similar “power wall”, normally a type-C to DP display + 10GbE adaptor, but once a 3rd device like a NVMe TB SSD enclosure is added then macOS will give me the same message you got. I had to unplug the display (which is clearly not bus-powered), then re-plug it for all three to work. In other words, the order of which you plug the devices in may be a factor, plug all the actual bus-powered ones first then the rest.

I always thought it was a laptop power constraint or bug so didn’t think much about it, since it is rare for me to need to plug that much stuff without using a dock in the mix. I am quite surprised that the Mac Studio would behave the same due to it being a desktop with a 370W AC PSU…

 

[Jamooche]

On my 14” MBP I got a similar “power wall”, normally a type-C to DP display + 10GbE adaptor, but once a 3rd device like a NVMe TB SSD enclosure is added then macOS will give me the same message you got. I had to unplug the display (which is clearly not bus-powered), then re-plug it for all three to work. In other words, the order of which you plug the devices in may be a factor, plug all the actual bus-powered ones first then the rest.

I always thought it was a laptop power constraint or bug so didn’t think much about it, since it is rare for me to need to plug that much stuff without using a dock in the mix. I am quite surprised that the Mac Studio would behave the same due to it being a desktop with a 370W AC PSU…

For your MacBook Pro 14" are you staying that you can't hook up an external display, ethernet adapter, and external SSD at the same time? That's the exact setup I'm planning to use when my Apple Studio Display arrives combined with the Apple ethernet adapter and my Sandisk 4TB Extreme drive. If this is the case, I may have to rethink getting the Studio.

And for the original poster...can you power some of these external Thunderbolt devices with their own power supply cable to see if they will work with the Studio for data? There must be some sort of in-line watt measurement device you can use to confirm your suspicions.

 

[Chancha]

For your MacBook Pro 14" are you staying that you can't hook up an external display, ethernet adapter, and external SSD at the same time? That's the exact setup I'm planning to use when my Apple Studio Display arrives combined with the Apple ethernet adapter and my Sandisk 4TB Extreme drive. If this is the case, I may have to rethink getting the Studio.

And for the original poster...can you power some of these external Thunderbolt devices with their own power supply cable to see if they will work with the Studio for data? There must be some sort of in-line watt measurement device you can use to confirm your suspicions.

I was saying they could only work when the devices are plugged in according to a certain order, won’t work otherwise. In that scenario the display has to be plugged in last. While this behaviour is not documented at all, it seems to make some sense since the Thunderbolt ports share the same pool of power and data lanes, where when the initial connection already established and occupied a certain route of power for instance, maybe it would have to be released and rearranged in order for additional devices to not exceed the physical limit.

 

[SpotOnT]

I can demonstrate easily what I find challenging to articulate thoroughly. At least this isn't an iMac - what a pain that was to lug to the Genius Bar!

Don't sell yourself short, you are articulating this fine! You have a device with 6 Thunderbolt lanes. Those lanes, according to specification, means you should be able to support 6 Thunderbolt devices with full bandwidth and power draw all at the same time. You are not able to support more than 3. You are explaining the problem crystal clear.

I have no idea what is going on here and if it is a software or firmware issue (I wouldn't think it is a hardware issue). Do keep us posted if you have a chat with Apple though!

 

[Falcon_64]

@SpotOnT thank you, you've summarized it perfectly. It's not every day I might run into this, but it's not a rare thing, either. It's been hectic here, but I'm hoping this weekend I might be able to call or chat w/support. I'll certainly update here with any info I get. Thanks folks, y'all have a great day!

 

[rkuo]

@SpotOnT thank you, you've summarized it perfectly. It's not every day I might run into this, but it's not a rare thing, either. It's been hectic here, but I'm hoping this weekend I might be able to call or chat w/support. I'll certainly update here with any info I get. Thanks folks, y'all have a great day!

Gotta be honest, it kinda feels like they chucked the MacBook Pro M1 Max bios into both studio models, did the bare minimum to get it working, and left in a bunch of other limits that have no business in the desktop class Mac. It's such an odd beast of a machine right now.

 

[Chancha]

@Falcon_64 I am interested to see if you could try plugging your bus-powered stuff in first, then plug the rest to see if you could get all of them recognized.

I just tried on my 14" right now, it definitely behaves this way. The 3rd device being the bus-powered NVMe enclosure, power warning shows up. I unplug this SSD and also a DP monitor, plug the SSD first, the volume mounts, then I plug in the DP monitor the image shows without booting off the SSD. So clearly my 14" can handle everything at once, it just doesn't like the order I plugged them in.

 

[D49]

I run my Ultra with four thunderbolt externals. Also connect a fifth to the Cal Digit TB3 port. A sixth to the front TB port on the ultra. Are you sure you bought the ultra?

 

[lcubed]

I run my Ultra with four thunderbolt externals. Also connect a fifth to the Cal Digit TB3 port. A sixth to the front TB port on the ultra. Are you sure you bought the ultra?

are all of your TB devices bus powered?

 

[Falcon_64]

I run my Ultra with four thunderbolt externals. Also connect a fifth to the Cal Digit TB3 port. A sixth to the front TB port on the ultra. Are you sure you bought the ultra?

Yeah I bought the Ultra, I can't even being to fathom why you would even question that. Clearly you didn't read previous posts were I explained that every TB device works fine in every port. That should have been a clue as it wouldn't be the case if I had a Max, would it? ?

Attention to detail can be a wonderful thing. Try it some time. ?

 

[Falcon_64]

@Falcon_64 I am interested to see if you could try plugging your bus-powered stuff in first, then plug the rest to see if you could get all of them recognized.

I just tried on my 14" right now, it definitely behaves this way. The 3rd device being the bus-powered NVMe enclosure, power warning shows up. I unplug this SSD and also a DP monitor, plug the SSD first, the volume mounts, then I plug in the DP monitor the image shows without booting off the SSD. So clearly my 14" can handle everything at once, it just doesn't like the order I plugged them in.

@Chancha thanks for the suggestion. I tried and connected the display last, but the end result is the same though, the fourth drive still didn't work. Been slammed with work, going to try my luck with Apple support this weekend. Thx again!

 

[Chancha]

@Chancha thanks for the suggestion. I tried and connected the display last, but the end result is the same though, the fourth drive still didn't work. Been slammed with work, going to try my luck with Apple support this weekend. Thx again!

That’s sad to hear. I wish Apple could document the power behaviour of their ports more precisely so we don’t have to play guessing game.

If I were in your situation I would return the Studio, it is somewhat unacceptable for a desktop to not be able to power just a moderate number of devices.

 

[Falcon_64]

That’s sad to hear. I wish Apple could document the power behaviour of their ports more precisely so we don’t have to play guessing game.

If I were in your situation I would return the Studio, it is somewhat unacceptable for a desktop to not be able to power just a moderate number of devices.

I'm past the return period, even if it was still an option I wouldn't because it's a 3 month wait for a replacement. At the moment there's two possibilities. 1) this is inherent in the design and not something a replacement would "solve", or 2) this is not how it's intended to function and mine is, indeed, malfunctioning.

If it's #1, I would have to use the OWC TB Hub or CalDigit TS3+ that I used with my Mac mini for those occasions I need to use the additional devices (it's been nice not having the extra hardware on the desktop. If it's #2, I'll have it repaired eventually. Bit of a bummer, but stuff happens.

 

[OldMike]

My current setup on my Mac Studio Max when facing the rear starting from the left is:

TB3 -> Bus powered OWC Envoy Express NVMe enclosure
TB4 -> OWC miniStack STX Thunderbolt 4 Hub (1 port being used for DisplayPort Adapter)
TB3 -> Akitio QuadX Thunderbolt 3 - 4 bay drive enclosure
TB3 -> Akitio QuadX Mini Thunderbolt 3 - 4 bay drive enclosure <- TB3 -> Bus powered OWC Envoy Express NVMe enclosure

I am also using 1 USB port for APC UPS battery monitoring, 1 front USB-C port for charging (phone, keyboard and trackpad) and the HDMI port to connect to second display.

So far I have not had any issue with the bus powered drive, or any other drive through powering on the Mac Studio or reboots.

Not sure if this helps at all...

 

[Adult80HD]

I just tested my Ultra today and got the same thing--you can't have more than three bus-powered TB drives attached. I used three Sabrent TB NVMe enclosures and one Acasis TB NVMe enclosure. When I go to add the fourth, I get the "not enough power" notice. I think it's the design. It should be disclosed by Apple, and I don't see anywhere that it is. At the end of the day, not a big deal for me as I never have more than two attached, but if you planned on using four, that would be annoying.

 

[Falcon_64]

I just tested my Ultra today and got the same thing--you can't have more than three bus-powered TB drives attached. I used three Sabrent TB NVMe enclosures and one Acasis TB NVMe enclosure. When I go to add the fourth, I get the "not enough power" notice. I think it's the design. It should be disclosed by Apple, and I don't see anywhere that it is. At the end of the day, not a big deal for me as I never have more than two attached, but if you planned on using four, that would be annoying.

@Adult80HD - well that's comforting and also a bit disappointing at the same time. Thanks for testing and reaffirming my experience. I don't need this every day, just on occasion. I'm testing a photo editing program and the extra enclosure I tried to connect was a clone of my "live" photo storage drive so I don't inadvertently mess up my "production" photo copies or database with the beta software.

I agree, it would have been nice to have this limitation disclosed up front. At least I can work around it now that I'm aware. Thanks again for testing!

Regards,

-H