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You still don’t get it, do you?
As I explained before, Apple does not have a monopoly on smartphones/mobile devices. As you pointed out I can buy a Samsung phone or whatever else is available.
This is not what they’re arguing.

Forget about all other mobile device/smartphone vendors.

This is about app distribution for iOS devices. I can only get apps from the Apple App Store.

See the difference?

I’ll ask again. I I want to get apps for my iOS device where do I go?

Just keep the answer simple and name a place. Don’t tell me about what I want to experience or sell. Just name the place I can get apps from

You see it now?

I like the App Store and would rather get apps from it than from unsecured places but I see the argument. Do you?

Guess I have to make it even more obvious.

Short answer is you DON'T. The long answer is it's not a monopoly to choose to have control over what apps get on your platform. If you created a device and want your consumers to have the best experience, you control everything and as much as you can to make that possible.
It's the same reason Apple devices don't have any carrier logos on them. Apple has always been about minimal but essentials. If all that is OK then why not a streamlined one-stop shop for all your apps?
 
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The problem is not really the 30% cut. It is indeed a monopoly since there can't be competition

So for example, on the Android Play Store you get an automatic refund if you uninstall an app 2 hours after buying it. Refunds on iOS are difficult to say the least. Since there is no competition Apple has no incentive to make better refunds for its customers.

Even if Apple allowed third party stores on iOS I'm sure most customer would keep using the Apple App Store, but competition would benefit iOS users the most.

IMO the biggest benefit would be getting new browser engines in iOS. All browsers on iOS are basically Safari "skins" which is seriously undermining the progress of the web. Safari development is moving extremely slowly compared to Chrome (and Chromium based browsers) and Firefox.
 
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Given Silicon Valley's doubling and tripling down on stifling certain types of dissent, they've become a threat to free speech. That's the only reason I support this ruling.

Irresponsible use of free speech to propagate dangerous and incendiary lies and incite violence is the biggest threat to free speech. Silicon Valley has done more to enable free speech (and profit off it) than any entity before them. That's why we have the ability to communicate with billions of people around the globe in an instant rather than screaming rants on the street corners to be ignored by a few hundred passers-by.
 
Here's a miraculous solution: If you don't want to use an app store other than Apple's, then DON"T USE IT!

Wow what an easy concept to understand, well I guess not for all the Apple apologists / elitist here. There is no harm in consumer choice.

Apple can have their own strictly controlled store and somebody else can create a store app that allows hosting of iOS applications according to their own rules. Don't like it, don't use it.

Also, no decision has been made by the supreme court yet. The only decision they made was to HEAR the case by allowing the lawsuit to happen. At the end of this lawsuit, a decision will be made.

Who gives a **** about what Kavanaugh sided with, the supreme court is not supposed to be about Democrat vs Republican, it is supposed to be a court that thoughtfully applies an interpretation of the laws and constitution in the United States. A SC justice that can make an argument for different things that don't tote a party line is a good justice. The bad ones are strictly partisan (and often tend to be Democrat.... surprise surprise).

Your logic is fine but it’s not just about giving consumers a choice (they by the way have that already by side loading apps) but anyway it will potentially ruin the whole iOS ecosystem and what about that new store you suggest? What happens if there is no control at all, and people seems to start disliking their iOS devices? Who will the consumers blame? My guess is Apple even though they were forced to let things like that happen. Sometimes consumers shouldn’t have a choice like that. For an example if this will hurt other people due to malicious software invited into the system. You need to think broader than that. And in the end of the day no one is really forced to buy an Apple product. So if a consumer is not liking the rules, go ahead and find another product or ecosystem. As simple as that.
 
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So I read the case. And these were some nuggets that I pulled out of the arguments for the case to proceed. I'm not a lawyer, but these seemed to stand out the most to me in all 28 pages of the document:

In the Affirmative:
In this case, however, several consumers contend that Apple charges too much for apps. The consumers argue,in particular, that Apple has monopolized the retail market for the sale of apps and has unlawfully used its monopolistic power to charge consumers higher-than-competitive prices.

And they allege that they have “paid more for their iPhone apps than they would have paid in a competitive market.”

Apple exercises monopoly power in the retail market for the sale of apps and has unlawfully used its monopoly power to force iPhone owners to pay Apple higher-than-competitive prices for apps.

It is undisputed that the iPhone owners bought the apps directly from Apple. Therefore, under
Illinois Brick, the iPhone owners were direct purchasers who may sue Apple for alleged monopolization.

There is no intermediary in the distribution chain between Apple and the consumer.

If a retailer has engaged in unlawful monopolistic conduct that has caused consumers to pay higher-than-competitive prices, it does not matter how the retailer structured its relationship with an upstream manufacturer or supplier—whether, for example, the retailer employed a markup or kept a commission.To be sure, if the monopolistic retailer’s conduct has not caused the consumer to pay a higher-than-competitive price, then the plaintiff ’s damages will be zero. Here, for example, if the competitive commission rate were 10 per-cent rather than 30 percent but Apple could prove that app developers in a 10 percent commission system would always set a higher price such that consumers would pay the same retail price regardless of whether Apple’s com-mission was 10 percent or 30 percent, then the consumers’damages would presumably be zero.

The consumers seek damages based on the difference between the price they paid and the competitive price. The app developers would seek lost profits that they could have earned in a competitive retail market.


The Dissenting opinion:
The problem is that the 30% com-mission falls initially on the developers. So if the commission is in fact a monopolistic overcharge, the developers are the parties who are directly injured by it. Plaintiffs can be injured
only if the developers are able and choose to pass on the overcharge to them in the form of higher app prices that the developers alone control. Plaintiffs admit-ted as much in the district court, where they described their theory of injury this way: “f Apple tells the developer . . . we’re going to take this 30 percent commission . . .what’s the developer going to do? The developer is going to increase its price to cover Apple’s . . . demanded profit.”

Consider first the question of causation. To determine if Apple’s conduct damaged plaintiffs at all (and if so, the magnitude of their damages), a court will first have to explore whether and to what extent each individual app developer was able—and then opted—to pass on the 30%commission to its consumers in the form of higher app prices. Sorting this out, if it can be done at all, will entail wrestling with “‘complicated theories’” about “how the relevant market variables would have behaved had there been no overcharge.”

So courts will have to divvy up the com-missions Apple collected between the developers and the consumers. To do that, they’ll have to figure out which party bore what portion of the overcharge in every purchase. And if the developers bring suit separately from the consumers, Apple might be at risk of duplicative dam-ages awards totaling more than the full amount it collected in commissions. To avoid that possibility, it may turn out that the developers are necessary parties who will have to be joined in the plaintiffs’ lawsuit.

To evade the Court’s test, all Apple must do is amend its contracts. Instead of collecting payments for apps sold in the App Store and remitting the balance (less its commission) to developers, Apple can simply specify that consumers’ payments will flow the other way: directly to the developers, who will then remit commissions to Apple. No antitrust reason exists to treat these contractual arrangements differently, and doing so will only induce firms to abandon their preferred—and presumably more efficient—distribution arrangements in favor of less efficient ones, all so they might avoid an arbitrary legal rule.

The plaintiffs have not asked us to overrule our precedent—in fact, they’ve disavowed any such re-quest. Tr. of Oral Arg. 40. So we lack the benefit of the adversarial process in a complex area involving a 40-year-old precedent and many hard questions. For example, if we are really inclined to overrule
Illinois Brick, doesn’t that mean we must do the same to
Hanover Shoe? If the proximate cause line is no longer to be drawn at the first injured party, how far down the causal chain can a plain-tiff be and still recoup damages? Must all potential claim-ants to the single monopoly rent be gathered in a single lawsuit as necessary parties (and if not, why not)?

Personal Opinion:
I think that the case probably shouldn't be proceeding. It's definitely an uphill battle for the plaintiffs to prove a monopoly, or that any anti-trust laws were broken. Such a case isn't going to change the App Store, or allow other app stores to be created, if anything, Apple will likely just have to re-frame the EULAs that users agree to within the App Store, as well as the Developers EULA as well.

It's an interesting case, and I'm kinda excited to see where it will lead, but I don't think it's the case that we all may have thought it was.


Agree on your personal opinion. Especially considering the fact that the VAST MAJORITY of smartphone users complain about a $4.99 app but nearly each of those same people complaining has spend countless amounts more on IAP. That point alone should nullify this moronic case IMO.

APPS ARE NOT TOO EXPENSIVE PERIOD.

CASE STUDY: Affinity Photo on iPad is $20 and does 90 percent of what Photoshop on a desktop can do (SPOILER ALERT: Photoshop is $20/month subscription and used to cost $699 standalone)
 
If you don’t like the iOS App Store model you can go elsewhere. No one is forced to use Apple hardware.

No I can’t go elsewhere. What’s the alternative on an iOS device?
Remember iOS app distribution is what this is about not hardware/devices.

Of course I can go to another vendor, Apple does not have a smartphone/mobile device monopoly. We all know that we have options there.

Apple does have a monopoly on iOS app distribution. I cannot get apps from another place other than the App Store. Whether this is a good thing or not is personal opinion. Personally I like the App Store and would prefer to get my apps from it than from unsecured sources. However I see the point they’re trying to argue.
 
There should be a six month 15-30% fee on downloads and then it should end.

It's like saying you wanna live in an apartment for 5 years but only want to pay the full rent for six months. Not the best metaphor but it'll do.

But then again I believe I read that the commissions do go back to 15% after a year.
 
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An alternative app store wouldn't change that. Old 32 bit apps don't run under iOS anymore.

I would bet that many developers would continue to develop and sell thier new 64 bit apps if that was the only issue and they could set new pricing for the newer versions and gain new revenues.

The part of this case that does not make sense to me is that the Case seems to be based on APPs being too expensive - most apps are free - $10 - not very expensive!
 
It's like saying you wanna live in an apartment for 5 years but only want to pay the full rent for six months. Not the best metaphor but it'll do.

But then again I believe I read that the commissions do go back to 15% after a year.
Except, in your scenario, the only way i can have a job is to live in that specific apartment.

That's a terrible analogy.
 
Except, in your scenario, the only way i can have a job is to live in that specific apartment.

That's a terrible analogy.

The only way you can have that particular job which is in this case being on iOS devices. If you want a different job like reaching Android users you can get a different apartment.

It's not terrible if you don't agree with it or full understand it.
 
If you read the ruling, the question is "who is the direct retailer"? Apple or the Developer?

Only the direct retailer can be sued (under Illinois Brick).
Apple argues that it's not the retailer that set the price.

The court disagreed and allows the complaint to proceed (the consumer engaged Apple to buy the app, so Apple is the direct retailer, and therefore can be sued... who 'set the price' is not covered in Illinois Brick).
 
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The only way you can have that particular job which is in this case being on iOS devices. If you want a different job like reaching Android users you can get a different apartment.

It's not terrible if you don't agree with it or full understand it.
Stick to your argument. Spare us the poor analogies.
 
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Microsoft got done for this in the late 90’s. It’s no surprise Apple is now being focused on in this way.

The Microsoft case was completely different. Microsoft had 95% of the market, and used their influence to penalize competitors. As App Stores not under Apple's control exist for the vast majority of mobile devices in the world today, and as Apple is not using it's influence to prevent apps from appearing on those stores, there's really very little comparison to be made.
 
I wish there was an alternate source for apps - non apple, I would buy all my apps there. This is defintely a monopoly and many a good developer has given up with all the rules and restrictions. I have a lot of apps on older iOS versions that were cool and then suddenly not available on the app store on the next version of iOS

You are in luck, it is called Android and the Google Play Store where you can buy any sort of infected app your heart desires, and immediately thereafter have a highly infected POS of a tablet or phone. :confused: I would rather buy through a trusted store like Apple's. I have not found that any of my apps I get there are more expensive than the Android versions available elsewhere, but they are more secure and safe though. I realize spoiled Millennials are used to getting things free from mommy and daddy, so they think their apps should be free or ridiculously low priced. Good luck with BS idea...
 
These 5-4 decisions set precedent. We really need the Supreme Court to only set precedent unanimously. Having set precedent on a simple majority is too close and becomes too political.
Except that in this case Trumps appointee voted for this with 4 other liberals. He's done this at least twice already in a major court case.
 
If all that is OK then why not a streamlined one-stop shop for all your apps?

I think the crux of the argument is that once you buy an iPhone, it's your physical hardware.

should you want to destroy the OS on it, install 3rd party software (even with the risks), once you own the hardware, that shuold in thoery be allowable.

Problem is, Apple refuses. Once you buy an iOS device, App deployment is monopolistic. You cannot go anywhere else. This also forces companies to use the App store, AND follow App stores' rules. Often times draconic, arbitrary and slanted to Apple's favour.

An example of Apple potentially using this as abuse to the App developer.
Apple has a policy that you cannot sell / distribute an App on the app store that replaces, or repeats existing functionality within iOS. There are many cases where, Apple did not have functionality. So a developer made an App, only for Apple to essentially copy that App into iOS and then ban the developers App post-hoc

This is an abusive monopolistic position, as it puts overriding controls of what we, the consumer are allowed to run directly in Apple's exclusive controls. While This is possibly good for security and safety of your device, it removes any agency from the user, while potentially damaging and hurting other businesses that Apple can arbitrarily chose to support or deny.

I'm not saying the App store itself is a bad thing. The curation is great. But there needs to be allowances for user choice.

so TLDR: One stop streamlined store for all your Apps Good.
Apple's exclusive controls with zero 3rd party "store" or installations should user want? Bad
 
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The courts decision actually opens up lawsuits across the nation in each state against Apple’s App Store by both consumers and “developers” (as stated in the court decision) like Spotify. There will inevitably be a federal circuit split eventually on monopoly suits against Apple by other consumers and developers, so this decision really hurts Apple in the long run.
 
An example of Apple potentially using this as abuse to the App developer.
Apple has a policy that you cannot sell / distribute an App on the app store that replaces, or repeats existing functionality within iOS. There are many cases where, Apple did not have functionality. So a developer made an App, only for Apple to essentially copy that App into iOS and then ban the developers App post-hoc

I agree with this part.

EDIT: Apparently it's not an ACTUAL POLICY. I'm gonna have to mostly disagree with your statement.

should you want to destroy the OS on it, install 3rd party software (even with the risks), once you own the hardware, that shuold in thoery be allowable.

It's not just the individual devices that are at risk here. With one device affected, odds are it could be used to spread the malware to a vast majority of devices it communicates with. While Apple doesn't care if you light up your iPhone on fire, it should however restrict how you use the software.
It is a limited license after all.

To quote Green Lantern: The Corps is only as strong as its weakest link.
 
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I would bet that many developers would continue to develop and sell thier new 64 bit apps if that was the only issue and they could set new pricing for the newer versions and gain new revenues.

An app developer is free to change the price of the app right now.
 
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I wish there was an alternate source for apps - non apple, I would buy all my apps there. This is defintely a monopoly and many a good developer has given up with all the rules and restrictions. I have a lot of apps on older iOS versions that were cool and then suddenly not available on the app store on the next version of iOS

First, all companies "monopolize" their own business. A monopoly is only illegal if it is a horizontal monopoly, which would only be the case if Apple were able to control pricing on Google Play and other apps stores.

Second, I am a developer, and while I intensely dislike and disapprove of a lot of Apple's policies, an alternate App Store is not the solution.

And finally, if apps are no longer available on the App Store because they don't support newer versions of iOS that is the fault of the developer, not Apple. In most cases, it takes literally all of 1 minute to compile a new binary for newer versions of iOS.
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Good news for consumers. Apple shouldn’t get to decide what apps I can install. That was the reason to jailbreak in the past.

Yes it should because you, like most people, lack any awareness of the risks of installing unsigned apps.
 
It is outlandish because the core issue is Apple mandates you use them for payment processing. If you are selling an app or something digital through an in-app purchase you have no choice but to use Apple to handle the revenue collection and remittance.

If Apple were to separate app hosting from payment processing I think this whole thing would go away. Apple may need to charge a per-download fee to cover the hosting costs (or maybe not since apps drive hardware sales), but those developers that want to handle their own payments could get out of a large part of the "Apple Tax".

apple does not have a lock on payment processing. Example given: Netflix recently discontinued their iOS in app payment option. Spotify encourages users to stop subscribing through Apple by raising monthly pricing to $13 in the App Store compared with $10 through the music service’s payment system.

I think a per download fee isn’t workable. Say a small developer makes an app another developer sees as threatening. They create a bunch of bots to publicize it in unrelated forums and people fall for it and download it. Not being something they are interested in, they discard it. The developer is on the hook for many downloads that cost but generate no revenue. Not good for the small developer. As for Apple doing it for free, they count on the app revenue for part of their bottom line. Do you want users to pay more for phones? Android is subsidized through selling the user information. Should Google be banned from requiring phone makers use their search engine and web browser?
 
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The problem is not really the 30% cut. It is indeed a monopoly since there can't be competition

So for example, on the Android Play Store you get an automatic refund if you uninstall an app 2 hours after buying it. Refunds on iOS are difficult to say the least. Since there is no competition Apple has no incentive to make better refunds for its customers.

Even if Apple allowed third party stores on iOS I'm sure most customer would keep using the Apple App Store, but competition would benefit iOS users the most.

IMO the biggest benefit would be getting new browser engines in iOS. All browsers on iOS are basically Safari "skins" which is seriously undermining the progress of the web. Safari development is moving extremely slowly compared to Chrome (and Chromium based browsers) and Firefox.
What apple could do is offer a path for people to buy apps from a third party app store.
 
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I wonder how the Apple apologists will defend this one? I mean if the US Supreme Court rules for the case to go ahead, then their is going to be the fire where the smoke is....

Not looking good for Apple at the moment, with this plus the anti competition case in Europe that’s being investigated. Maybe their bubble will burst?
 
I think these lawsuits will result in less privacy which is something I value. I also think that the third parties will wind up with greater access to parts of the OS that could break phones and hurt end users.
 
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