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Another 'liberal' case where Roberts sided for.

The Court could soon take a liberal turn if Roberts continues on his current trajectory, unless a liberal justice retires during Trump's presidency.
Didn't realize that 4th amendment issues were another right vs left argument, especially since the right is typically about personal freedoms. Since your location is the UK, maybe if you know lived here then perhaps you would have a better grip on the issues in the U.S. On the other hand where you live 24 7 surveillance by government and draconian secrecy laws seem to be the norm.
 
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Instead of listening to newspapers, who all have their own agenda, you can read the decisions directly. The decision is the Carpenter one.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/slipopinion/17

This is only going to get worse. At some point your location will be tracked by your car as well. What's the line between business records and what essentially is the non-medical equivalent of PHI?

I suspect that the court could say that records irrelevant to a business are PHI and is subject to a warrant. But again, that means that someone has to determine what is a relevant business record, something discussed in the dissent.

In cases like this Roberts always will rule against expansive police powers. I think for the US that's OK. Another question would be: if the government buys that information from a third-party would they need a warrant?
Sorry to tell you but cars with telematics already do log location and more now and much more incase of an accident, then snapshots of complete car parameters is saved as events in redundant modules.
One problem is you can't opt out if you want to drive a newer car or use a cellphone because of E911. None of that data is Business related, except crash data for litigation.
 
Sorry to tell you but cars with telematics already do log location and more now and much more incase of an accident, then snapshots of complete car parameters is saved as events in redundant modules.
One problem is you can't opt out if you want to drive a newer car or use a cellphone because of E911. None of that data is Business related, except crash data for litigation.

Now, re-read the 4th Amendment again, and point out where the problem to this lies. When you do, you will see how wrong you are with your initial post here.

BL.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if there is another case for this heading to SCOTUS.

Since this case rules that the 4A applies, but the 5A doesn't apply when a fingerprint is used to unlock the phone (if TouchID is enabled), would not getting the warrant to search the phone implicitly force the suspect to give up his 5A right?

While I applaud SCOTUS for getting this one right, we've opened another can of worms here, which puts the 4A up against the 5A.



Because for some people, the United States Constitution seems to end at the 2nd Amendment.

Regardless, I posted on this very subject here a little over 5 years ago, and no-one seemed to care, as they were too afraid of big nasty mean Obama wanting to take their guns away.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/your-personal-data-versus-the-4th-amendment.1649516/

BL.

What are you talking about? This case doesn't hold the 4th amendment applies to unlocking a phone with a fingerprint.

And providing a fingerprint does not force one to be a witness against oneself, so I don't believe the 5th is implicated.
 
Another 'liberal' case where Roberts sided for.

The Court could soon take a liberal turn if Roberts continues on his current trajectory, unless a liberal justice retires during Trump's presidency.

See this is the danger in deciding that a justice is a guaranteed anything-leaner on our highest Court. That is not really what the Court was ever about.

What is a "conservative" justice, a "liberal" justice?

Remember David Souter? LOL GWBush does.

I remember a few cases I didn't care for how Breyer came down.

There will be cases Trump doesn't like how Gorsuch votes. Heh, he'll be ranting for days when that happens.​

The justices of the Supreme Court have deeply read the Constitution and the relevant precedents for cases before them. They occasionally run into something that they (or one or more of them) regard as an immutable Constitutional obstacle to whatever they might personally have wished to conclude about some disputed point of law in a case before them.

(and when all your clerks say sorry sir can't find otherwise... that's it)

Time for us to abandon the hyperpartisan BS and focus on hanging onto the whole of the Constitution together, since without its guarantees of our rights, we'll all be up the proverbial creek and at the mercy of a possibly tyrannical executive or legislative branch. Take the "wins" and "losses" of SCOTUS rulings in stride. I'm happy we have three branches of government that are still both strong and yet also malleable to the will of the people, we who consent to our own governance.
 
Didn't realize that 4th amendment issues were another right vs left argument, especially since the right is typically about personal freedoms. Since your location is the UK, maybe if you know lived here then perhaps you would have a better grip on the issues in the U.S. On the other hand where you live 24 7 surveillance by government and draconian secrecy laws seem to be the norm.

Are they though? The Patriot Act, amongst others proves that they aren't.
 
I’m shocked it was 5-4. Of course they need a warrant. It’s common sense. If a company is collecting private information on you the government is not entitled to ask for it without probable cause as decided by an impartial judge. Thank God John Roberts saw the light of day on this one or it would’ve been 5-4 the other way.

Get a warrant. If you’ve got any kind of probably cause no sane judge is going to deny it but police can’t go on a fishing expedition if they’re clueless as to who the suspect(s) might actually be.
It's really not common sense.

Here is the 4th Amendment:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized (emphasis added).

The GPS location data does not belong to you. It belongs to the carrier. Therefore, the 4th Amendment is not applicable.

I happen to like the outcome, but I don't like how they arrived at it and I do not feel what happened to this Petitioner was a 4th Amendment violation.

Unless other lawyers on this forum want to get into the weeds re: constitutional interpretation, I'd transition my criticism of the decision to the idea of privacy rights in general in the digital age.

We really need constitutional amendments to deal with these issues. Trying to shoehorn them into a 230 year old + document is a fool's errand.
 
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In a major statement on privacy in the digital age, the Supreme Court ruled on Friday that the government generally needs a warrant to collect troves of location data about the customers of cellphone companies.

But Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr., writing for the majority, said the decision was limited. "We hold only that a warrant is required in the rare case where the suspect has a legitimate privacy interest in records held by a third party," the chief justice wrote. The court's four more liberal justices joined his opinion.
I'm calling bulls**t.

Everybody is saying this is great news - perhaps it is - but as you can plainly see, the ruling is qualified. Loopholes and exceptions will only play into the hands of abusive parties, because they will be able to use the "necessary" excuse to get what-ever they want.

Ordinary people will still get screwed, all while the government and big-business stroke our backs and whisper "shhhh..." :oops:
 
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Everybody is saying this is great news - perhaps it is - but as you can plainly see, the ruling is qualified. Loopholes and exceptions will only play into the hands of abusive parties...

Yah the reasons for it being 5-4 (and could have gone 5-4 the other way) could become more obvious as the thread rolls on. I'm not sure the Constitution can't handle it though. Time will tell as other intentionally narrow rulings pile up on this and related issues of tech v traditional search constraints. The drift of the rulings may point to a broader ruling (and THEN we may have to get out our pitchforks).
 
Another 'liberal' case where Roberts sided for.

The Court could soon take a liberal turn if Roberts continues on his current trajectory, unless a liberal justice retires during Trump's presidency.
Thank God there is a check to balance against the Executive branch right now. But we also have the Legislative branch doing a pretty freaking good job of limiting themselves right now, lol, so it's not as bad as it could be. Good thing there are a few moderates left who put country before party.
 
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What are you talking about? This case doesn't hold the 4th amendment applies to unlocking a phone with a fingerprint.

I didn't say that this case had anything to do with the 5A. What I said was to consider the implications of it.

And providing a fingerprint does not force one to be a witness against oneself, so I don't believe the 5th is implicated.

If your phone is locked by touchID, you waive your 5A right. If your phone is protected by a passcode and not TouchID, you are protected by the 5A.

https://www.engadget.com/2014/10/31/court-rules-touch-id-is-not-protected-by-the-fifth-amendment-bu/

If the police provide a warrant to search your phone, and again, you use TouchID, they can compel you to unlock your phone because of the fingerprint being used. If it is not using TouchID, but instead is locked by a passcode, you have grounds for a 5A violation, as passcodes are protected by the 5A against self-incrimination.

So again, the 4A and 5A can come into conflict with eachother, depending on which protection method is being used to lock your phone.
 
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Effects pretty much covers cell phones, and anything else we invent in the future.

Technology and inventions do not invalidate rights given to us by our Creator (God, Allah, Jehovah, Mother Nature, the Universe, mom and dad). They are principles, not absolutely tied to the limits to what the Founders had at hand.

I'm sure James Madison wasn't thinking, "Well, this will do, until they come up with something besides paper to put their thoughts and writing on. Good thing we didn't put Papyrus in this Amendment, so we can get those that use that... Bwa ha ha ha!!!"
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I didn't say that this case had anything to do with the 5A. What I said was to consider the implications of it.



If your phone is locked by touchID, you waive your 5A right. If your phone is protected by a passcode and not TouchID, you are protected by the 5A.

https://www.engadget.com/2014/10/31/court-rules-touch-id-is-not-protected-by-the-fifth-amendment-bu/

If the police provide a warrant to search your phone, and again, you use TouchID, they can compel you to unlock your phone because of the fingerprint being used. If it is not using TouchID, but instead is locked by a passcode, you have grounds for a 5A violation, as passcodes are protected by the 5A against self-incrimination.

So again, the 4A and 5A can come into conflict with eachother, depending on which protection method is being used to lock your phone.
Simply turn the phone off. The passcode is required after turning it off. For those concerned, use another finger besides your index finger to unlock it. After 5 (I forgot how many it is) attempts, it reverts back to the passcode. For FaceID, close your eyes. It needs those to unlock it. Well, at least I think it does. Either way, turning it off, I know requires the passcode.
 
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While I agree with you, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here just to point out what the true problem is.

The problem here is that with the apps that you use and data that you collect on your phone, who truly owns the data? If you upload something to Facebook or to Dropbox that could potentially incriminate you, that 3rd party could be, in the eyes of the law, the owner of that data. Since they aren't directly implicated in the investigation or charges, no warrant would be needed to search them. All that the government would need to do is get a subpoena, and that 3rd party would hand over that data.

That's pretty much the dissenting opinion of Thomas, Kennedy, and Alito. I'm not sure I like it, but I see their point. On the other hand, if I put papers in a safe deposit box at a bank, I'd argue (as, as far as I know, courts would agree with me), this would require a warrant to search. But in that case, I'm handing over the pages to the bank to hold onto; they are still my property. If I upload documents to Dropbox, I'd argue the same principle applies; a warrant is required.

Do I own the data that my phone provided collects while I use their service? While I don't like the implications of saying the provider owns the data, I can make a case for it: I didn't ask them to store data or documents I created, as with the bank safe deposit or Dropbox. Rather, they generate data as a result of me using their service.

We shouldn't think that the Supreme Court is the only way to get privacy and property protections. Companies can also standup to the government to protect people's privacy. Companies can contest a subpoena; Microsoft and Apple, as two examples, have. Unfortunately, the phone companies seem too eager to share your data with the government. But I could see a phone carrier—T-mobile, are you listening?—marketing respect for privacy as a feature. If one company were brave enough to challenge subpoenas on grounds of their customer's privacy, perhaps others would follow.

Congress and State legislatures could—and should—enact legislation requiring warrants to access cell phone records. This would be a much more robust, enduring, and unambiguous protection than the SCOTUS decision.

Nor should we count on nine justices to protect our privacy or property. After the regrettable Kelo decision, several states enacted legislation strengthening 5th Amendment protections, after the Court failed to do so. Had Carpenter decision gone the other way, I'd hope states would enact similar 4th Amendment protections. They should do so anyway. Arizona didn't wait for SCOTUS to rule on civil asset forfeiture before enacting reforms that protect people's property rights.

We've got three, co-equal branches of government. Congress has been delegating too much power to the executive branch, and relying too much on the judicial to rein in abuses of the Constitution (even their own abuses). States should also be a check on federal government abuses. SCOTUS is not, and should not, be the only check on government overreach.

Further, we shouldn't look at this as a conservative vs. liberal split. As I've mentioned, everyone with an opinion on this case should read Gorsuch's dissent; he makes a stronger defense of private than the court opinion. Also, look at the history of 4th Amendment decisions under Scalia, who is obviously no longer on the Court, but one of the most conservative justices and perhaps the most consistent defender of the 4th Amendment.

Lastly, even in his dissent, it's clear that Alito believes in the 4th Amendment (and the way I read it, more strongly than the majority in this case); he just doesn't agree it applies in this case.

This was an interesting decision. Those who say this obviously should have been a 9-0 decision are missing the nuance, and—dare I say—obviously haven't actually looked at the decision.
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I happen to like the outcome, but I don't like how they arrived at it and I do not feel what happened to this Petitioner was a 4th Amendment violation.

I agree. The immediate consequences are good, but the reasoning is imperfect.

We really need constitutional amendments to deal with these issues. Trying to shoehorn them into a 230 year old + document is a fool's errand.

Here's where I'd disagree, though. As I mentioned above, this could be handled via legislation requiring a warrant to search digital data held by a third party. The barriers to an amendment a high; we'll never see two thirds majority support for this. But property and privacy protecting legislation is feasible.
 
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The Trump debacle has revealed just how stupid this extreme divide is between “liberalism” and “conservatism” is. Much of what Trump is doing isn’t “conservatism” but authoritarianism of some odious flavor. Conservatism used to be about small government. The ranks of the Never Trumpers are full of people I don’t agree with on most subjects, but their honesty and love of country I don’t question. Obama used a model from the Heritage Foundation to craft the ACA, but that was suddenly communistic. He had to be portrayed as alien and un-American. Disagree with him all you want, but he’s a smart, caring American.
 
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I'm shocked this isn't a 9-0 slam dunk with a poster for it... how can we be so vocal about the 2nd Amendment, or the 1st... and not be equally as loud for the 4th? "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated"........... come on now.

You should read the case. The majority and dissenting opinions are very nuanced. There's a lot of precedent that made this not so straightforward. Like most cases, it's a mistake to see this as simply divided on "party lines". Read the opinions.
 
Sorry to tell you but cars with telematics already do log location and more now and much more incase of an accident, then snapshots of complete car parameters is saved as events in redundant modules.
One problem is you can't opt out if you want to drive a newer car or use a cellphone because of E911. None of that data is Business related, except crash data for litigation.

I know what's logged. One of the questions before the court is/was what data requires a warrant and what doesn't. The majority said that location data requires a warrant, but their reasoning probably won't last one more case and even they said the decision is narrow.

Can Congress change things? Yes. At one point video rental information wasn't protected, and then after Clarence Thomas it became protected via the law.
 
Another 'liberal' case where Roberts sided for.

The Court could soon take a liberal turn if Roberts continues on his current trajectory, unless a liberal justice retires during Trump's presidency.
Gorsuch “dissented” but actually wanted the Court to go even further in protecting information.

Alito usually sides with law enforcement, even if the other conservatives do not.
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I know what's logged. One of the questions before the court is/was what data requires a warrant and what doesn't. The majority said that location data requires a warrant, but their reasoning probably won't last one more case and even they said the decision is narrow.

Can Congress change things? Yes. At one point video rental information wasn't protected, and then after Clarence Thomas it became protected via the law.
Robert Bork. Not Thomas.
[doublepost=1529704247][/doublepost]
Are they though? The Patriot Act, amongst others proves that they aren't.
The Patriot Act had broad bipartisan support.
 
I wonder how long before Apple offers the ability to delete your location data, using a method similar to how you can clear your browser history.

You'll keep waiting forever. Once the data reaches a third party, Apple no longer has physical control over the data. Furthermore, third parties also have the ability to get your location data without using the offfcial Apple-provided APIs.
 
Now, re-read the 4th Amendment again, and point out where the problem to this lies. When you do, you will see how wrong you are with your initial post here.

BL.
That was essentially Gorsuch’s point. He wanted the Court to rule that location data is “your” data, subject to the 4th Amendment.
 
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I didn't say that this case had anything to do with the 5A. What I said was to consider the implications of it.



If your phone is locked by touchID, you waive your 5A right. If your phone is protected by a passcode and not TouchID, you are protected by the 5A.

https://www.engadget.com/2014/10/31/court-rules-touch-id-is-not-protected-by-the-fifth-amendment-bu/

If the police provide a warrant to search your phone, and again, you use TouchID, they can compel you to unlock your phone because of the fingerprint being used. If it is not using TouchID, but instead is locked by a passcode, you have grounds for a 5A violation, as passcodes are protected by the 5A against self-incrimination.

So again, the 4A and 5A can come into conflict with eachother, depending on which protection method is being used to lock your phone.
This is what I said--Touch ID does not merit 5th Am protections.
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That's pretty much the dissenting opinion of Thomas, Kennedy, and Alito. I'm not sure I like it, but I see their point. On the other hand, if I put papers in a safe deposit box at a bank, I'd argue (as, as far as I know, courts would agree with me), this would require a warrant to search. But in that case, I'm handing over the pages to the bank to hold onto; they are still my property. If I upload documents to Dropbox, I'd argue the same principle applies; a warrant is required.

Do I own the data that my phone provided collects while I use their service? While I don't like the implications of saying the provider owns the data, I can make a case for it: I didn't ask them to store data or documents I created, as with the bank safe deposit or Dropbox. Rather, they generate data as a result of me using their service.

We shouldn't think that the Supreme Court is the only way to get privacy and property protections. Companies can also standup to the government to protect people's privacy. Companies can contest a subpoena; Microsoft and Apple, as two examples, have. Unfortunately, the phone companies seem too eager to share your data with the government. But I could see a phone carrier—T-mobile, are you listening?—marketing respect for privacy as a feature. If one company were brave enough to challenge subpoenas on grounds of their customer's privacy, perhaps others would follow.

Congress and State legislatures could—and should—enact legislation requiring warrants to access cell phone records. This would be a much more robust, enduring, and unambiguous protection than the SCOTUS decision.

Nor should we count on nine justices to protect our privacy or property. After the regrettable Kelo decision, several states enacted legislation strengthening 5th Amendment protections, after the Court failed to do so. Had Carpenter decision gone the other way, I'd hope states would enact similar 4th Amendment protections. They should do so anyway. Arizona didn't wait for SCOTUS to rule on civil asset forfeiture before enacting reforms that protect people's property rights.

We've got three, co-equal branches of government. Congress has been delegating too much power to the executive branch, and relying too much on the judicial to rein in abuses of the Constitution (even their own abuses). States should also be a check on federal government abuses. SCOTUS is not, and should not, be the only check on government overreach.

Further, we shouldn't look at this as a conservative vs. liberal split. As I've mentioned, everyone with an opinion on this case should read Gorsuch's dissent; he makes a stronger defense of private than the court opinion. Also, look at the history of 4th Amendment decisions under Scalia, who is obviously no longer on the Court, but one of the most conservative justices and perhaps the most consistent defender of the 4th Amendment.

Lastly, even in his dissent, it's clear that Alito believes in the 4th Amendment (and the way I read it, more strongly than the majority in this case); he just doesn't agree it applies in this case.

This was an interesting decision. Those who say this obviously should have been a 9-0 decision are missing the nuance, and—dare I say—obviously haven't actually looked at the decision.
[doublepost=1529699209][/doublepost]

I agree. The immediate consequences are good, but the reasoning is imperfect.



Here's where I'd disagree, though. As I mentioned above, this could be handled via legislation requiring a warrant to search digital data held by a third party. The barriers to an amendment a high; we'll never see two thirds majority support for this. But property and privacy protecting legislation is feasible.
Or legislation. I agree---you are correct.
 
You would think most criminals would know by now to use a burner phone or how to turn off location services when at work.

Hope you're not into any kind of criminal activity because you should be aware that any device that connects to the internet can have its location exposed.
 
This is what I said--Touch ID does not merit 5th Am protections.

So you're agreeing with what I am saying. Good.

My point here is that while the 5A won't protect you against TouchID, it will protect you against passcodes. So the question becomes: When the warrant is issued to search your phone for your data, you should be able to refuse to hand it over, citing the 5A right against self incrimination, n'est-ce pas?

If so, like I said in my first post, I can see this heading back to SCOTUS because the 4A is going to come in conflict with the 5A, and even with this ruling, we don't know which one will win out.

BL.
 
So you're agreeing with what I am saying. Good.

My point here is that while the 5A won't protect you against TouchID, it will protect you against passcodes. So the question becomes: When the warrant is issued to search your phone for your data, you should be able to refuse to hand it over, citing the 5A right against self incrimination, n'est-ce pas?

If so, like I said in my first post, I can see this heading back to SCOTUS because the 4A is going to come in conflict with the 5A, and even with this ruling, we don't know which one will win out.

BL.
Ah, okay, I understand what you are saying.

No, I don't think you can refuse the warrant based on the 5th Amendment. I mean, I would try to do that and I think it's a cognizable argument, but I don't think it would win.

If a cop comes to you and says "ha! Warrant! I want to search you phone!" and you say "ha! 5th Amendment! No you can't!" I don't think that is a winning argument.
 
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