Survey Suggests Mac Developers Continue to Be Dissatisfied With Mac App Store

[jermwhl]

I, personally feel that they should be required to share revenue with Apple. Apple is providing them a platform to put their apps on, they should get a good percentage of each app sold. I stand with Apple on that one, 110 percent. Just my 2c.

I don't think anyone is saying Apple shouldn't get a cut. Their cut is just too high. 30% is very steep. Best Buy doesn't charge (insert company name) 30% to sell their merchandise off their store shelves. I think if that was reduced, as well as other restrictions the App Store has, they would see more people putting their apps up.

Me personally, I love the MAS and wish more devs took part in it. But without their support it will likely go away, and I feel that would be unfair to Apple.
[doublepost=1497567511][/doublepost]

Unfair to Apple? I think its clear there is not enough development into the App store and very high percentage of sales goes to Apple, despite that lack of development. How is that unfair to Apple? It would be unfair to Apple if they developed and maintained a great App Store and were meeting developers (and customers) expectations and were still getting slammed. That is not the case here. The dissatisfaction is not just with developers. There are customers who are not thrilled with the App store either. Why would they use the App store when there are other ways to distribute?

Personally, I use the App Store for updates only. Very few apps I download from there, with the exception of Black Magic Disk Speed Test, I guess. I don't look at the Mac App Store the same way I do the iOS App Store, and I think that same theme is fairly consistent in this forum thread.

 

[nt5672]

As a user the only Apps that I will buy from the App store are Apps that are free and not available directly from the maker. The App store places too many restrictions (sandboxing) on Apps. If Apple ever tries to enforce sandboxing on macOS I will leave. No discussions, no thought. My computer is my computer and I expect to be able to install what I want. Period.

 

[MrNomNoms]

Apple really need to do two things:

1) Get rid of crapware that blatantly steals IP from other companies and passes it of as their own along with deceptive applications that are little more than shell for a website or are just things like a collection of templates.

2) Sort out the sandboxing because there are many who would like to get into the store but the sandboxing policy makes it impossible for their application to function without either a major re-write or completely crippling the experience.

 

[Analog Kid]

The Mac App Store needs to be eliminated completely. Everything worked just fine for software distribution before its advent. All it is (and ever was) is another way for Apple to control all aspects of its business model to generate even more revenue for the company. Because, you know, they don't already have enough money without it.

From what I understand it's also a pain in the ass for Mac developers. That sounds to me like it's a lose/lose proposition for everyone BUT Apple.

My view is almost the polar opposite of this...

It is a rare software purchase that I'll make outside the App Store. Little Snitch, for example, will never fit inside the App Store rules, and I understand that. I haven't bought the latest MS Office, for example, but probably would if it were available on MAS.

At the same time I've spent a lot of money on the App Store that I wouldn't have spent if I had to chase apps down all across the web, with all their different payment mechanisms and arcane licensing terms.

I don't miss the days of not knowing what software was still maintained, which online payment systems to trust, my credit card company blocking my card because it looked like I was making random purchases out of the country, not knowing anything about an app except what I could find on some blog review that was 3 versions old, and dealing with a dozen different update methods...

Nope. I'm good with how things are now. I think a lot of the complaining is just contempt bred by familiarity.

 

[Analog Kid]

Best Buy doesn't charge (insert company name) 30% to sell their merchandise off their store shelves.

It's not that different. Best Buy's gross margin is about 24%:
https://www.gurufocus.com/term/grossmargin/BBY/Gross-Margin-/Best-Buy-Co-Inc

That's not a bad estimate of what their average markup is.

 

[drumcat]

I like the MAS. However I will not buy a $50 item when the app on iPhone is $5.

 

[alexgowers]

I see macOS as the master system in apples lineup. You need it to create apps and content for others to consume, without an open app structure it would stagnate. The App Store might be good for casual users but it serverly limits apps with sand boxing. Developers have voted with their feet and until Apple offers access to all the system and lets users gets demos and much more it's going to fail to take off.

The main areas I see as issues are plugins that rely on apps that aren't in the store or run dependent on other platforms. Things like video audio and graphics software and all the content and plugins. It might be lower thirds plugins or content for a video editor. These extra things are what prevents iOS from maturing too. Content for creators is far more important and totally ignored by Apple on all platforms.

 

[jermwhl]

It's not that different. Best Buy's gross margin is about 24%:
https://www.gurufocus.com/term/grossmargin/BBY/Gross-Margin-/Best-Buy-Co-Inc

That's not a bad estimate of what their average markup is.

They're not charging the vendors that 24%, they're charging the customers, so maybe it was a bad example. I used to work at Best Buy and the employee discounts on some things were insane (nearly half off in some cases). Especially computer accessories and batteries, if I remember correctly. Not really the point of this thread, but I was reminded of spending nearly my entire paycheck from that place inside the store every pay period. haha

 

[Nimrad]

The Mac App Store needs to be eliminated completely. Everything worked just fine for software distribution before its advent.

I completely disagree; and the last one is a lame excuse. While I do agree that one should not necessarily change a winning team, I do not believe that the previous system was a winning team.

What is sooo great about the Mac App Store is that it provides a central point to keep all your apps up-to-date. In a perfect world for me as a consumer I would buy all my apps from the mac app store and they would stay up-to-date through the same interface.

There are a lot of negative aspects of the mac app store as well, but none that can't be fixed by Apple. Removing it is a dumb choice imo. I cringe everytime I open Word and Microsoft AutoUpdate wants to update itself in order to update Word.

 

[LinusR]

The Mac App Store needs to be eliminated completely. Everything worked just fine for software distribution before its advent. All it is (and ever was) is another way for Apple to control all aspects of its business model to generate even more revenue for the company. Because, you know, they don't already have enough money without it.

From what I understand it's also a pain in the ass for Mac developers. That sounds to me like it's a lose/lose proposition for everyone BUT Apple.

Speak for yourself; I very much appreciate the MAS as a safe source of new software. No need to check whether downloads from developers' websites are legit, no payment hassle, paid once, always downloadable (yes, I know, this is not really an advantage to developers at this point...), etc.

 

[Anderton]

Speak for yourself; I very much appreciate the MAS as a safe source of new software. No need to check whether downloads from developers' websites are legit, no payment hassle, paid once, always downloadable (yes, I know, this is not really an advantage to developers at this point...), etc.

Except there is plenty of scams apps or more and less shady apps in MAS. Few examples:

https://twitter.com/thomasareed/status/873492578817241088

https://twitter.com/djross95/status/819016169197830144

https://twitter.com/deluxive/status/822282939060854787

https://twitter.com/deluxive/status/783712367758761984

https://twitter.com/deluxive/status/873459603022983169

https://twitter.com/deluxive/status/867381624584982528

https://twitter.com/jhpot/status/806998268685103104

https://twitter.com/thomasareed/status/781174814434324480

 

[anentropic]

basically Apple suck at web apps

and the App Store is basically a web app, bundled inside a native app with the install and update features

similar features on the www and in iTunes etc have also long been half-baked

 

[techwarrior]

How about a survey of users re: MAS? From a user's perspective, MAS offers convenience, security, piece of mind. Many prefer to buy from MAS before looking elsewhere.

Devs have an influential relationship with Apple, and should be able (over time) to overcome the challenges cited. Clearly, trials, bundling, upgrade pricing and exceptions to sandboxing (where a case can be made to Apple to allow it) would benefit consumers as well as developers. But, don't abandon the MAS without considering consumer preferences.

The 30% margin hit Devs take on MAS distributed apps offsets a lot of cost, including marketing (to some degree), distribution, and billing. I suspect these functions would consume 30% or more for small developers, but perhaps more importantly, these companies can keep their focus on functionality rather than devoting considerable resources and manpower to supporting the business functions the MAS assumes on their behalf.

Clearly, devs with established market presence and who support other platforms find the MAS somewhat redundant and less appealing financially given current price sharing arrangements. Perhaps if Apple could offer flex pricing, with discounts for higher volume and\or based on the app or subscription price, more developers might give greater consideration to using the MAS as their primary distribution mechanism for Mac software. Doing so might even drive prices up a bit as developers price to take advantage of better margins (not necessarily good for consumers, but clearly a benefit to developers).

 

[guzhogi]

In some ways, I wish the App Store app would allow you to check other App Stores (so it's like an App Mall maybe?). So if Apple's store doesn't have an app, users could easily check other stores at the same time. Have one unified search & update system. For 3rd party stores, maybe have a warning when you add it that says something along the lines of "Apple doesn't support 3rd party stores. Use at your own risk."

Something else I'd like to see on the App Store is the ability to filter apps based on system requirements. It'll make it simpler to see what I can run on my system, ignore what I can't. While I'm pretty good at figuring out whether or not I meet the requirements, a lot of people aren't.

 

[LinusR]

Except there is plenty of scams apps or more and less shady apps in MAS. Few examples:
https://twitter.com/thomasareed/status/873492578817241088
https://twitter.com/djross95/status/819016169197830144
https://twitter.com/deluxive/status/822282939060854787
https://twitter.com/deluxive/status/783712367758761984
https://twitter.com/deluxive/status/873459603022983169
https://twitter.com/deluxive/status/867381624584982528
https://twitter.com/jhpot/status/806998268685103104
https://twitter.com/thomasareed/status/781174814434324480

Having checked all of your provided links I must admit I am aware of those apps, and most of those mentioned by you should definitely advertise in a different fashion, that's for sure.

But I struggle to see any illegal activity (fraud or "scam", as you call it).

 

[Stevez67]

What is an "unknown developer"? If a company is out there selling a piece of software, 9 times out of 10 the card goes through some payment processor like PayPal anyway, right? Do you also guard your precious credit card number when you go out to "unknown restaurants"?

If an app is available off the App Store, I'd rather the people who design and build my software get 100% of the proceeds instead of 70%.

What stops the dev from raising the price in the app store to compensate? Is there a clause in the Apple contract that prevents different prices for the app on different platofrms?

 

[ignatius345]

What stops the dev from raising the price in the app store to compensate? Is there a clause in the Apple contract that prevents different prices for the app on different platofrms?

There probably is some clause about not undercutting them by offering a direct-buy discount. Every app I've checked, it's been the same price either way.

More likely, apps that are exclusively in the app store just factor that 30% into the price -- meaning the consumer pays for it...

 

[Stella]

I find your premise 'all mac developers should share revenue with Apple, even if software is sold outside the app store' to be extremely amusing.

Without 3rd part development, there would be no Mac. Apple absolutely require 3rd party software. Apple need third party devs more than 3rd developers. They could just switch to windows and Linux.

Apple developers who sell outside the App Store rightly owe Apple zero. 0. Nothing. if Apple wanted revenue from all developers they should charge for Xcode ( even then Xcode is not a requirement ).

What you are suggesting is impossible to enforce anyway without locking down the Mac and killing it off.

I understand why devs want to work outside of the MAS, they don't share their profits. That's a no brainer.

I, personally feel that they should be required to share revenue with Apple. Apple is providing them a platform to put their apps on, they should get a good percentage of each app sold. I stand with Apple on that one, 110 percent. Just my 2c.

Me personally, I love the MAS and wish more devs took part in it. But without their support it will likely go away, and I feel that would be unfair to Apple. The way the iOS App Store works is great, developers are forced to give a portion of their sales to Apple, in turn for offering a platform to sell on. But allowing apps outside of the MAS, devs will choose to go with not sharing revenue and not doing app reviews. I think Apple will either close down the MAS or only allow MAS apps.
[doublepost=1497567511][/doublepost]

Just because you have a lot of money doesn't mean you shouldn't not keep making it whenever possible. Like those goons who says about a classic artist "they should hang it up, they have enough money". Doesn't matter. They should still make more and more and more money. There is no such thing as too much money. I support Apple making revenue whenever possible, 110 percent. They have a (great) business to run and again, more money isn't bad thing if you are the richest man on earth or the poorest. I say, go Apple. Force devs to give a percentage of apps sold, cuz they offer the platform.

 

[huperniketes]

There are millions of independent developers registered that have the dream to publish their apps to Macs and iDevices. Before that, indies didn't have that chance, and now they can make money from applications that literally fart, to really cheap Photoshop alternatives, maps, etc. You can even make some cents out of your first "practice application."

This is incorrect. Indies did have the opportunity to market our own apps. We even had a couple of app developer communities: MacSB, which was Mac-focused; and microISVs, which were for indie devs of all platforms. We were, and many still are, active on IRC, Twitter, forums such as MacRumors, etc. where we shared tips and info on app development, marketing and other business issues.

Sounds like you have no idea on how it actually works.

He might not. And you might not. But I remember what resources Apple provided indies before the Mac App Store. One of which was their Downloads section, which would list our apps for us, with a lot more categories and other discoverability features which are still not met by MAS.

Some other key differences between the old system and MAS:

• hosting - before you had to find a way to host your apps, now MAS will distribute it for you;
• Developer Program registration - before you could make and distribute apps simply by registering, now you must enroll in the Apple Developer Program, paying the $99 minimum fee (unless you're a student);
• user licenses - you had to pick and implement your own licensing technology, now it's incorporated into MAS;
• user engagement - you knew who your customers were and could contact and respond to them directly. Now that engagement can only occur through Apple's review process;
• user reviews - 3rd party review and discoverability sites such as MacUpdate, iusethis, Softpedia, etc. were more important to microISVs back then, but they're still around; now, the review process on MAS is still pretty bad according to developers on the store.

Of course, Amazon also has its own app store where you can discover, buy, and review Mac apps.

Problem right now is that there is a lot of competition in there. If you don't make quality apps, you won't get noticed.

There's always a lot of competition. It isn't a matter of making a great app or game. It's a matter of having the business and marketing skills required to make yourself known and build a relationship with the users. Microsoft had this down pat decades ago.

 

[appleman1988]

I find your premise 'all mac developers should share revenue with Apple, even if software is sold outside the app store' to be extremely amusing.

Without 3rd part development, there would be no Mac. Apple absolutely require 3rd party software. Apple need third party devs more than 3rd developers. They could just switch to windows and Linux.

Apple developers who sell outside the App Store rightly owe Apple zero. 0. Nothing. if Apple wanted revenue from all developers they should charge for Xcode ( even then Xcode is not a requirement ).

What you are suggesting is impossible to enforce anyway without locking down the Mac and killing it off.

Well I find YOUR idea extremely amusing too.

Apple gives them a platform as much as they give the Mac apps. The Mac exists because it's better than anything else and certainly Windows. Same with iDevices. iOS smokes Android in performance and reliability and app quality. Enough said.

Last time I checked, people using Windows Store apps/Metro apps on Win8/10 are about -+1 percent statistically. No one uses Metro apps, lol. They use DESKTOP programs. The Windows Store has no reason for existing. Those stupid little Metro apps look like Fisher Price toys. The tiled screen and all that on Win8 - totally kiddie game territory. Ah cute, look at the colors and the big squares. No serious professional that has a set would use something like that. Maybe women, but even that's a stretch. Anyone with half a brain uses Classic Shell or Start8/10. Leave the kiddie Metro apps for the KIDS.

 

[Stella]

Well I find YOUR idea extremely amusing too.
Apple gives them a platform as much as they give the Mac apps. The Mac exists because it's better than anything else and certainly Windows.

Why do you find 'my idea extremely amusing'? You give no reasons.

Is Mac better than Windows, Android vs iOS? It depends what your doing doesn't it - what your needs are. It isn't black and white, and never is.

Last time I checked, people using Windows Store apps/Metro apps on Win8/10 are about -+1 percent statistically.

Most windows users download apps from other sources... For games, Steam is a huge player. The windows store - like the Mac AppStore, there are app restrictions, which limits what can be published.

Those stupid little Metro apps look like Fisher Price toys. The tiled screen and all that on Win8 - totally kiddie game territory. Ah cute, look at the colors and the big squares. No serious professional that has a set would use something like that. Maybe women, but even that's a stretch. Anyone with half a brain uses Classic Shell or Start8/10. Leave the kiddie Metro apps for the KIDS.

Sounds like your just on some rant now...

 

[huperniketes]

I don't think anyone is saying Apple shouldn't get a cut. Their cut is just too high. 30% is very steep. Best Buy doesn't charge (insert company name) 30% to sell their merchandise off their store shelves.

It's not that different. Best Buy's gross margin is about 24%:
https://www.gurufocus.com/term/grossmargin/BBY/Gross-Margin-/Best-Buy-Co-Inc

That's not a bad estimate of what their average markup is.

Whoa! You guys are way, way off. Retailers typically expect suppliers to give them 45-60% discount on the goods sold through their stores. PLUS, take back unsold/opened products.

The gross margin you quoted on Best Buy is what their profitability was after deducting for labor, marketing, inventory, leases, utilities, other businesses and revenue, etc. It isn't directly related to their cut of sales of products sold in their stores.

 

[Stella]

If you compare like for like - digital stores - Apple is in line with other digital stores - Steam for instance also takes 30% of the revenue. Steam is pretty good value - a much higher potential audience than the MacAppStore.

Comparing Brick and mortar stores vs digital stores is comparing apple's to oranges... best buy have physical goods - they take warehouse, shop floor space, transportation etc.

I don't think anyone is saying Apple shouldn't get a cut. Their cut is just too high. 30% is very steep. Best Buy doesn't charge (insert company name) 30% to sell their merchandise off their store shelves. I think if that was reduced, as well as other restrictions the App Store has, they would see more people putting their apps up.

Whoa! You guys are way, way off. Retailers typically expect suppliers to give them 45-60% discount on the goods sold through their stores. PLUS, take back unsold/opened products.

The gross margin you quoted on Best Buy is what their profitability was after deducting for labor, marketing, inventory, leases, utilities, other businesses and revenue, etc. It isn't directly related to their cut of sales of products sold in their stores.

 

[Michaelgtrusa]

Except there is plenty of scams apps or more and less shady apps in MAS. Few examples:

https://twitter.com/thomasareed/status/873492578817241088

https://twitter.com/djross95/status/819016169197830144

https://twitter.com/deluxive/status/822282939060854787

https://twitter.com/deluxive/status/783712367758761984

https://twitter.com/deluxive/status/873459603022983169

https://twitter.com/deluxive/status/867381624584982528

https://twitter.com/jhpot/status/806998268685103104

https://twitter.com/thomasareed/status/781174814434324480

You can look at this and tell where most of these apps are from . china.

 

[huperniketes]

If you compare like for like - digital stores - Apple is in line with other digital stores - Steam for instance also takes 30% of the revenue. Steam is pretty good value - a much higher potential audience than the MacAppStore.

Comparing Brick and mortar stores vs digital stores is comparing apple's to oranges... best buy have physical goods - they take warehouse, shop floor space, transportation etc.

Of course, they're different. My point is the margin is better for developers on Apple's online stores than they were in brick & mortar stores like CompUSA. And while online stores may not have the physical infrastructural needs of in-person stores, there's still a great deal of hardware, software and administrative work to manage an online retailer.