Switch cancelled

Discussion in 'General Mac Discussion' started by afm, Dec 25, 2002.

  1. afm macrumors newbie

    Aug 18, 2002
    I had already ordered a Powerbook, but had to cancel the switch because of a
    serious deficiency in Mail.app in MacOSX Jaguar: it no longer allows
    access to my mail folders stored on a Cyrus IMAP server. I also had to
    cancel the Jaguar Upgrade on my wife's iMac, because she would also loose
    access to her folders. Sorry, Apple.
  2. dricci macrumors 6502a

    Dec 15, 2001
    IMAP is a standard, like POP3 and SMTP. It's not limited by client or server... Maybe if you gave us some more information, we could help you figure out the problem.
  3. irmongoose macrumors 68030


    Dec 3, 2001
    Sometimes Tokyo, sometimes California
    You forgot all the other good about Mac OS X and all the bad about Windows just for that? Yikes. Anyways, like dricci said, it most probably is a problem with some configurations. You should have asked about it here or looked aorund at the Apple support forums before cancelling your order. Your mail must be quite important, eh?

  4. afm thread starter macrumors newbie

    Aug 18, 2002
    It's not a configuration problem (unfortunately)

    To irmongoose: I do not switch from Windows, but from some other Unix.
    You are right, if I were switching from Windows, I could live with the
    problem (Outlook is not a very good IMAP client...)

    Thanks for the offer for help dricci, but it is not a configuration

    You are right, IMAP is a standard, but Apple does not have a very
    good reputation as an IMAP implementor. E.g. in 2001, there were
    some discussions about the fact that Apple developers just missed the
    possibility that an IMAP server uses another hierarchy separator then
    the slash. The Cyrus IMAP server uses a dot.

    Here is what Mail.app does (derived partly from network level traces of
    the IMAP communication between Mail.app and the server).

    The good news is that Mail.app handles the IMAP protocol correctly. After
    logging in (and I appreciate that Jaguar added some new authentication
    mechanisms, including Kerberos), Mail.app retrieves a list of all
    folders from the server. These folders are then available to rules
    (incoming messages can be moved automatically to the folders) or to the
    menu option that allows to move a selected message to some folder.

    The problem is that the Cyrus IMAP server places all user folders as
    subfolders of the INBOX (just as all user directories in a file system are
    usually subfolders of the home directory). In 10.1, Mail.app displayed
    a small triangle in front of the INBOX icon, clicking on the triangle
    revealed the subfolders. The user interface embellishments in 10.2 made
    the triangle disappear, so subfolders are no longer accessible.

    For a UW IMAP server, this is not a problem. That server places user
    folders on the top level, they will show up in the folder tray. It is
    also not possible to have messages and folders in a UW IMAP server,
    so for the UW IMAP server, the INBOX cannot have subfolders, so the
    INBOX folder does not need that little triangle. I conjecture that
    Apple developers only test with the UW IMAP server (UW IMAP also uses
    the slash as hierarchy separator, see above).

    It is possible to make the folders visible on the top level: if you set
    the prefix in preferences to INBOX or user.uid, the user folders are
    now at the top level (just below the prefix, that is), so the show up.
    Unfortunately, this makes the INBOX unaccessible, because Mail.app now
    refers to it as INBOX.INBOX. Here is another problem with the prefix
    in Mail.app: real IMAP servers have at least two name spaces: one for
    user messages, and one for shared folders. Mail.app would really need
    to prefixes: one for user folders (not to be applied to the INBOX,
    is they do now) and one for shared folders.

    I sent a bug report to Apple about the problem in october, and had
    hoped that it would be fixed by 10.2.3. Mail really is important for
    me. I handle over 1000 messages from customers and partners every month,
    this is just impossible without folders. And please don't recommend other
    mailers: I don't want to create a dependency between such a basic function
    and the OS. Mozilla just cannot handle Sent-folders correctly (this is
    a legacy from Netscape 4 days). Entourage? Well, M$ is not an option.

    If the powerbook came with 10.1, I could survive some time. But this means
    no updates, no SuperDrive. It also means a used system, not a new one.
  5. dricci macrumors 6502a

    Dec 15, 2001
    There are alternatives to Mail... search macupdate.com
  6. springscansing macrumors 6502a


    Oct 13, 2002
    New York
    Yeah.. jesus man, talk about a huge lack of common sense.

    Download another mail program!

    Or if you are moving from unix... run your current mail program under OS X!

    Lord. Good thing you canceled the powerbook.. you don't deserve it.
  7. Dr. Distortion macrumors regular

    May 2, 2002
    Eindhoven, the Netherlands
    Hey, and what right do YOU have to get personal on afm? I think he made a well-thought decision considering the knowledge he supposedly has of macos X. Please be more considerate when saying someone doesn't deserve a powerbook... you're embarrassing yourself... maybe you should use your common sense too.

    This somewhat reminds me of the thread about the Powermac G4 drawings, where some idiot scared an apple insider away. Let's all use our common sense to prevent that from happening again.

    -Dr. D.
  8. cubist macrumors 68020

    Jul 4, 2002
    Muncie, Indiana
    It sounds like the Cyrus server is borderline non-standard.

    Naturally, as people have pointed out, he could have used the 10.1 mail.app under 10.2... or he could download Eudora, or he could use Pine or Elm or any other command-line mail client.

    Rejecting a Powerbook because of this problem is like rejecting a new Porsche because it doesn't have cup holders.

    He's within his rights to act in this way, but it seems a bit strange to publicize such a strange decision in a public forum. My guess is that it is a rationalization of a decision made on some other undisclosed grounds.
  9. mymemory macrumors 68020


    May 9, 2001
    Well, I rather get 3 Pismos before getting a Ti Powerbook in that case.

    I'm only waiting for Apple to lunch a serious competitive, reiable powerbook, I think the Ti just have speed and the big screen that is it. I can wait a little longer.

    About the guy with the e-mail problem. If that is a issue, that is ok, it is my money and Apple is a product in the market, the one that is gonna use that product is me, it is for me so I can choose what I need and what I like, specially if I'm not in the need of getting it.
  10. mmmdreg macrumors 65816


    Apr 14, 2002
    Sydney, Australia
    Actually...i use a certain IMAP server for one email among many and my Inbox has a triangle that expands into each email account and then the IMAP one has another triangle that expands into a series of other folders..
  11. chmorley macrumors 6502a


    Jan 2, 2002
    Denver, CO
    Wow. Merry Christmas.

    Whether or not you agree with the decision, don't you have any inclination to be a decent person? This is a 40 year-old man who seems to have a pretty good understanding of certain issues related to computers and UNIX platforms. Do you even understand how foolish you sound? I suppose if you did, you would have been a bit more kind.

    The funny thing is, I remember knowing everything when I was 18, as well. When I think back, I am embarassed at what an ass I was. I was probably as strident as you, but not nearly as abrasive.

    Have fun with that.

  12. medea macrumors 68030


    Aug 4, 2002
    Madison, Wi
    Yeah I have to agree with some of the other guys, just dont use Mail.app and get something else!
    it is a nice program (for me) but it certainly shouldnt be the deciding factor in buying a mac.
  13. zarathustra macrumors 6502a


    Jul 16, 2002
    Philadelphia, PA
    The problems the original poster lists are weird....

    Stuff like Kerberos- it was not introd in 10.2, it was part of OSX since 10.0. There are other mail programs to use. Etc. I think he just wanted to cause a splash by saying "I am not switching" - if you can't solve YOUR problems, don't blame Apple for it. you can run the X window environment and use your Unix tools.

    It reminds me of jealous neighbors congregating around a neighbor's Porsche, when one says: " I was gonna by a Porsche, but it didn't come with a cup holder."

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