T-Mobile Relocks iPhone in Germany

[samab]

The main point of the original lawsuit, as I read it, was that T-Mobile was restricting the customers options by limiting the iPhone to 1 of 3 plans, and preventing customers from buying an unlocked phone for use on another network. They went on to say that this *could* cause a precedence in that future phones may be locked to specific carriers and plans.

Now, we all know that there are exclusive phones on all networks, including Vodafone, but these phones upto now have been available on all plans, and when bought for full price (as the iPhone is), or as part of a contract then they are also unlocked.

My original point was that had the iPhone been made available to all operators, even on the current markup system and locked down, then the competition between the operators would have caused a selection of comparative tariffs available to choose from, probably at lower prices or including more minutes/data.

The main point of the Vodafone lawsuit is this is just a nuisance lawsuit withoiut a leg to stand on. If T-Mobile Germany or Apple had even a faint feeling that they are standing on shaky ground --- then they would have crafted complex tariff plans like in the French iphone.

Blackberries and Danger Sidekicks have specialized plans --- even in Germany.

iPhone exclusivity has nothing to do with high tariff plans in Europe. AT&T manages to put together a iphone specific plan that is just regular price voice plan plus regular $20 data plan. AT&T didn't charge a single cent in premium for their iphone plans --- why? Because there are enough competition in the US mobile service market. The German mobile service market is not competitive to begin with --- the iphone has nothing to do with it.

Why on earth would anybody defend Apple's strategy of locking down the phone, creating a large black market and generally making using an iphone seamlessly internationally hideously expensive and awkward (like the caller id issue)? It just doesn't make any sense to me that people would side against their own interests.

Because you are blaming the wrong people.

If international carriers charge insane amounts in roaming fees --- then blame the international carriers, don't blame apple. What we are talking about is Vodafone UK subscribers travelling to Germany and roaming on Vodafone Germany --- and got charged insane roaming fees.

...and what about those of us living in a country that has already got iPhone..but, they picked the wrong carrier? In the UK O2 coverage sucks. I'd have an iPhone in a heartbeat but where I live there is no EDGE coverage, WIFI is useless for me. The shame is that Orange has superb coverage. How come Orange are good enough for Apple to deal with in France but not UK? Deffo not the best deal for the customer here, Apple grabbing the best deal for them. I reckon it'll tank in the UK (seems to have so far)

Only a weak carrier would pay a king's ransom for the iphone --- so by definition, you ain't going to get the best network.

 

[Dembo]

Aside from the fight over whether locking a phone down is good or bad:

So far T-Mobile is the only carrier which substantially adjusted their rate plans: You are now getting free land-line and T-Mobile calls over the weekend and the price of excess minutes has been lowered by 25%.

The plans are still somewhere between “sportive” and “outrageous”, however, do you guys really think they started offering better plans because the (locked) iPhone is selling like crazy?

I always thought that the T-Mobile plans are testing the waters: Can we sell an outrageous contract combined with a locked phone. Apparently the answer is “nah, not really”. I hope Apple listens. When going for smaller markets (think: Austria) a carrier could easily snatch the exclusive rights to the iPhone simply to keep competitors from offering the device. How easy would it be for Apple to re-negotiate the exclusive contract when the thing does not sell at all?

And would this be “good” for the consumer?

 

[Manic Mouse]

...and the other side of the coin is "YOU" who are blinded by hate toward something you just can't grasp or accept. You are right, the iPhone IS locked down for one reason and one reason only...money, which is what capitalism is all about. They created this digital item and have every right in the world to sell it as they see fit. It is not my place nor yours to say if they are right or wrong...they invented/created it...they sell it...PERIOD The same goes for any other product in the world...it is made to make money for the creator...if you like it you buy it...if you don't, THEN DON"T

I never said I was going to buy one, that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on the iPhone or that my opinion isn't valid. You see this is also how capitalism works, people don't have to take what they're given. They are perfectly entitled to complain about what they think are overpriced goods.

You've admitted that what you said about the iPhone being locked down "for consumer advantage" is rubbish. That's all I had a problem with.

Apple DID lock down their phone for their advantage...your right....but your wrong about the phone network....they do deserve a cut because IT IS THEIR PRODUCT and CREATION and that is how they CONTRACTED it to the network and the ones that pay for it are the ONES THAT WANT TO pay for it. And another reason they locked it down is to give whiner boys like yourself a reason to BITCH about something else that isnt their way.

I didn't say they couldn't demand a cut of the network fee, but that they don't deserve it. Which is entirely true. Apple add nothing to the network, they provide no services or goods for which money can be exchanged. Does Honda deserve a cut of what you pay for gas? Does Apple deserve a cut of what you pay for internet? The same logic applies, and the answer is always "no". They are getting money for allowing you to use the iPhone (which you bought and own) on someone's network. They aren't giving you anything for which they can be paid. They can do it, but it's not exactly consumer orientated.

For your simple minded information...my phone bill is now CHEAPER with my iPhone and AT&T contract then it was with Verizon and my Treo so your info is unfounded. I am neither gullable nor am I being gouged. I did my research, made my comparisons and made a decision that I felt was right for my phone/data usage. I am not an apple fan....I use a Sony computer w/windows and love it...never had a problem. I did use an iPod for my media but before that it was a multitude of MP3 players that were waterproof or had FM radio or god knows whatever option. Point being...If you don't like something then DON'T BUY it or Sign a contract and better yet...grow up and quit whinin about something that over 1 million users and growing love!

Well I'm basing my calculations on EU contracts (which is what this story is about, no?) not US ones. The UK and German "iPhone contracts" are horrible.

I think I'm not the one who needs to grow up... What kind of person thinks you need to own something to be allowed to express an opinion on it? Your entire argument is "you don't own one so shut up", while inserting words like "whine" and "BITCH" here and there for good measure. Good one. I better not see you posting on anything Mac related, as you don't own one.

Work on the spelling and punctuation too, when you're telling someone to "grow up" it helps if you don't write it like a seven year old.

 

[goosnarrggh]

They are only sensible from the studios point of view. Region encoding is a loss for consumers.

In some jurisdictions (Australia comes to mind) it is effectively mandatory that all DVD players must be able to play DVDs from all region codes transparently.

If it is not practical to provide automatic, transparent region compatibility due to some fundamental aspect of the design of the DVD player, but the player does provide a feature allowing the device to be manually reconfigured to switch amongst a set of supported region codes (and this is the case for virtually all standalone DVD players in production today, albeit access to the reconfiguration option is often hidden, or the reconfiguration mechanism may only be designed to work a limited number of times), then instructions must be provided showing the user how to access to the option, and it must be made possible to preform such reconfiguration an unlimited number of times.

 

[SFC Archer]

I never said I was going to buy one, that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on the iPhone or that my opinion isn't valid. You see this is also how capitalism works, people don't have to take what they're given. They are perfectly entitled to complain about what they think are overpriced goods.

This is my whole point to your ranting and raving along with all of those that are like you. You get on these forums, without an iPhone, without an iPhone contract, with no hands on user experience whatsoever....and Troll. You whine and cry about something you dont have, dont intend to get and I am so tired (and Im sure many others as well) of seeing and reading it. If you had one or intended to get one then your "opinion" would have merit...but all you are right now is a bag of hot air!

I didn't say they couldn't demand a cut of the network fee, but that they don't deserve it. Which is entirely true. Apple add nothing to the network, they provide no services or goods for which money can be exchanged. Does Honda deserve a cut of what you pay for gas? Does Apple deserve a cut of what you pay for internet? The same logic applies, and the answer is always "no". They are getting money for allowing you to use the iPhone (which you bought and own) on someone's network. They aren't giving you anything for which they can be paid. They can do it, but it's not exactly consumer orientated.

The same holds true here...You don't deserve to post on this thread because you don't have or intend to get an iPhone. How many different ways do you want me to say the same thing: It does NOT matter wheather Apple deserves a cut of the network fees or not...Apple made an offer to T-Mobile, O2 and all the other European mobile services and it was T-MOBILE that ACCEPTED the proposal and signed the contract to distribute a product. So it is all a mute point wheather you like it or not...it happened and users are agreeing to the contract with T-Mobile and iPhones are selling more and more. By inventing the i"PHONE" which can only be used on a "NETWORK" they do deserve a part of the network fee because that is what was "AGREED" to by your own T-Mobile. And yes they are giving you the ability to "COMMUNICATE" in a different way with a different product which is "WHY" they are getting paid for it and deserve the fee for the product they created to be used on that said network. If they hadn't created the iPhone then all of this would be for not and you would still be whining about some other product on some other website because that is just the type of individual you are...nothing will ever be right or acceptable to your type.

Well I'm basing my calculations on EU contracts (which is what this story is about, no?) not US ones. The UK and German "iPhone contracts" are horrible.

...and this is Apple's fault??? I think not. It is the fault of your non-competitive market in Europe because it is all government controlled by laws against this and that. My U.S. contract was an example...not a standard. It is your mobile companies that are establishing your tariff rates and the government taxes. Apple has nothing to do with it...they recieve the same amount per iPhone everywhere in the world...the only increase that Apple includes is the cost of international shipping which they have every right to recoup from the consumer.

I think I'm not the one who needs to grow up... What kind of person thinks you need to own something to be allowed to express an opinion on it? Your entire argument is "you don't own one so shut up", while inserting words like "whine" and "BITCH" here and there for good measure. Good one. I better not see you posting on anything Mac related, as you don't own one.

Many, many users think the same way I do and look at those that don't use or have the product as trolls because you have nothing to base your assumptions or discussions on. I would surmize that you are very insecure or jealous and that is why you post what you do...to gain attention and security to fill that void of..."I don't have one so I will make everyone else miserable too" or "I can't afford one because of (insert reason) and so I will make it rough on everyone else too" I have never and will never post on a Mac computer because I do not have one...I do not spout off about a product I have no knowledge of...even on my Apple forum posts, I have told users that if they are using a Mac that my answers are for PC users because that is where my knowledge lies...unlike yourself.

Work on the spelling and punctuation too, when you're telling someone to "grow up" it helps if you don't write it like a seven year old.

...and here I rest my case and will not respond to your rants any further...You are so desperate for replies and attention that you want me to post in a "forum" in SA format. Obviously, they way I have posted and typed and punctuated has gotten my point across and the "emphasis" has had it's effect. You have run out of steam so are trying to find something else in life that is half empty to you so that you can continue your pathetic attempt to be someone. I wish you luck in your life and hope that someday you will see the light and a half FULL glass!

Oh...any by the way...here are 30,000 more examples of people who disagree with you and what Apple deserves.
http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/news/comments/orange-30000-iphones-sold-in-five-days/12011

 

[mpw]

...and this is Apple's fault??? I think not. It is the fault of your non-competitive market in Europe because it is all government controlled by laws against this and that...

How is the US mobile market more competitive than the UK market?

I haven't read your whole rant, but based on the few statements like this I have read you don't display any great knowledge of what you're talking about.

Have/do you even have an account with a european mobile provider?

One of the promlems I see with the iPhone is it doesn't really compete with many other phones, most of which are phone first whereas the iPhone is above all else an iPod. Other phones are sold as hardware whereas the iPhone is sold as part of a closed system.

When Jobs launched the thing he compared it against a bunch of business smartphones, but it doesn't compete with them lacking many basic features. People have to see it for what it is, an iPod with a phone, and like the iPod in buying it you accept the restrictions Apple see fit to put on your use of your hardware and accept that those restrictive practices are there solely for Apple's benefit at your cost.

 

[SFC Archer]

How is the US mobile market more competitive than the UK market?.

I never did state this in any of my posts...the poster was talking about how expensive the plans are in the UK market...I was only stating "MY" example as to how much I was paying and that it was in fact cheaper then my previous contract with another carrier.

I haven't read your whole rant, but based on the few statements like this I have read you don't display any great knowledge of what you're talking about.

...and you do? What makes your qualifications any higher then mine? It may help you read my whole "rant" so that you can understand the whole discussion, there are at least 3 different posts in this thread. I have never stated that I know it all, it is just common sense that most everyday normal individuals use before making snap calls without reading all that is posted.

Have/do you even have an account with a european mobile provider?

Nope...and unless life makes a drastic change, never will. Just using what the other poster was stating.

One of the promlems I see with the iPhone is it doesn't really compete with many other phones, most of which are phone first whereas the iPhone is above all else an iPod. Other phones are sold as hardware whereas the iPhone is sold as part of a closed system.

...and? This means what? If I remember some of what Steve said...the iPhone wasn't necessarily made to "compete with other phones" it was made "different". That it would change the way cell phones were used.

When Jobs launched the thing he compared it against a bunch of business smartphones, but it doesn't compete with them lacking many basic features. People have to see it for what it is, an iPod with a phone, and like the iPod in buying it you accept the restrictions Apple see fit to put on your use of your hardware and accept that those restrictive practices are there solely for Apple's benefit at your cost.

Are they basic features? Or are those the features that are expected by those that are used to the same old thing and have a hard time accepting change. I can pretty much safely say that users "see it for what it is" Over 1 million users seem to be adapting just fine to those "missing features". More and more phones are sold every day (30K in 5 days in France) and those users are adapting just fine. Sure we miss our MM and Cut and Paste (is your phone a computer first or a cell phone) and Games (hmm is your phone a gameboy first or a cell phone) or 3G which is suppose to be faster...don't know, don't care...its fast enough for my use. http://www.appleinsider.com/article...ogle_new_get_a_mac_ad_iphone_speed_boost.html

I don't see any restrictions imposed by Apple, I did my research, like what I saw, saw that it fit my use behaviors and purchased it. For those things that are missing...I have already adapted and adjusted and do not feel the loss at all. What I don't miss are all of the non-intermeshed, buggy, freezing third party apps that my Treo had...to a point where I never used anything but the phone and sometimes the music player that kept freezing. So...no...I dont miss the old ways or the so called basic features...I have moved on and adapted. I am not restricted at all, in fact I use this phone in ALL of its capacities more then any of my previous "smart" phones combined.

Great Discussion, hopefully I have answered your questions without insult because none is intended!

 

[takao]

I always thought that the T-Mobile plans are testing the waters: Can we sell an outrageous contract combined with a locked phone. Apparently the answer is “nah, not really”. I hope Apple listens. When going for smaller markets (think: Austria) a carrier could easily snatch the exclusive rights to the iPhone simply to keep competitors from offering the device.

yeah austria is going to a totally different ballpark compared to germany .. i wouldn't be surprised to see none of the providers being too keen on getting the device if they have to give up so much money like apple demands ... they are working on razor thin margins anyway.. perhaps the mobilkom will add it and then put it in some glas shelf or something ...
the low cost tariffs are so dominating right now that introducing high priced special tariffs simply wont cut it ... t-mobile tried and market share wise they failed

 

[samab]

When going for smaller markets (think: Austria) a carrier could easily snatch the exclusive rights to the iPhone simply to keep competitors from offering the device. How easy would it be for Apple to re-negotiate the exclusive contract when the thing does not sell at all?

The iphone deal probably doesn't include "minimum sales level" in which the carrier guarantees a certain number of iphones be sold in their country.

AT&T has promoted its own online music stores after the iphone is launched. Apple has also promoted wifi service on the iphone with Starbucks --- which is provided by T-Mobile USA.

The iphone deal is very "loose". The carrier can screw Apple and Apple can screw the carrier.

Well I'm basing my calculations on EU contracts (which is what this story is about, no?) not US ones. The UK and German "iPhone contracts" are horrible.

Perhaps you should consider that the European carriers (or various national governments in Europe) are at fault, not Apple. France has only 3 national carriers --- that's a recipe for price gouging. Germany has the top 2 carriers with 2/3 of the mobile market --- that's also not a good sign. UK has Hutchison 3 that occasionally do a price war (but Superman Li doesn't really seem to care about operating a business --- it's more like they are periodically "window dressed" their business and trying to do an IPO).

How is the US mobile market more competitive than the UK market?

It is competitive by the fact that the number 2 carrier (verizon wireless) was strong enough to say no to the iphone and still pulled in more net retail subscribers adds in Q3 than AT&T with the iphone.

In other words, AT&T (the largest US carrier) didn't have the competitiveness required to charge "premiums" on the iphone plan --- which is just the regular priced voice plan rate plus the regular priced data rate.

yeah austria is going to a totally different ballpark compared to germany

Apple is really not going to care about a country with 8 million people. It's like how the iphone is not available in the states of vermont and alaska.

 

[weg]

This is getting as dumb as region encoded DVDs.

Which would be a good idea, if only Steve Jobs had invented them

 

[weg]

Apple is really not going to care about a country with 8 million people.

Don't forget the kangaroos. Apple don't wanna mess with a bunch of angry kangaroos...

 

[mpw]

Don't forget the kangaroos. Apple don't wanna mess with a bunch of angry kangaroos...

Austria doesn't have many kangaroos, I think Jobs is safe.

 

[weg]

Austria doesn't have many kangaroos, I think Jobs is safe.

Tell that to the kangaroos

 

[unigolyn]

Its quite simple really...if you want it to work properly and do everything it was designed to do then that is the customer advantage. If you don't like it the way its offered then...geeeeee whiz.....DONT BUY IT! Quit your whinin and go back to Burger King...there you can get it your way. If you you want to make a change in someones business model then I suggest you start working for a CEO slot so that "YOU" can make a change. Apple made the decision with T-Mobile, the courts saw in favor of said contract and that is just the way the cookie crumbles, so get over it and move on!

Like, what the f***. You:

1) Don't know what you're talking about
2) Are using an abusive tone for no reason
3) Are apparently a masochist

1 - Saying that the iPhone experience is dependent on the network is complete horse manure. It just does not compute. GSM is a standard, and all operators follow the standard. The only, and I do mean ONLY thing offered by AT&T is the world's dumbest non-feature, visual voicemail. And if a popular phone like the iPhone offered it, all major networks would introduce the trivial software update to their systems. Pretending that AT&T has put any R&D into the iPhone is nonsense.

2 - People are not "whiners" when they want carrier independence. Would you buy a car that only allowed Esso fuel? Would you buy an iMac that only allowed you to use Comcast as an ISP? Or would you be "whining"?

As to your idiotic burger analogy, let's explore that. Burger King may advertise customizable burgers, but in fact every single burger joint will hold the onions or risk being sued to kingdom come by the family of someone who died of anaphylactic shock. "Don't put X in my food" is something we all take for granted, just like the fact that when we get a Sony TV we can attach an LG DVD player to it, or an Apple TV, or an Xbox 360 instead of a PS3.

There are ZERO technological reasons for carrier-exclusive phones and two or three-year contracts. Since telecommunications is a hugely regulated industry, market forces are not allowed to work as usual. And that's why cellular operators get away with completely ridiculous business practices. And unlike a private entrepreneur, this is NOT their prerogative, because they are licensed by governments to use public RF bandwidth. It's in the interests of every consumer to push for antitrust laws that prevent telco mergers and laws supporting carrier independence and number portability.

3. We all like Apple, but come on, Mussolini and Hitler had few supporters who were quite as rabidly myopic as you seem to be. Apple making superb products doesn't lead to every business partner of Apple's being the bee's knees - and every decision Apple makes is not VERBOTEN! to be criticized because "If you don't like it, go make your own $200B tech company!". I bet you got angry at people decrying iTunes DRM, right until The Steve wrote that open letter, at which point your cookie crumbled in a different sort of way. You remind me of that prisoner in Life of Brian "Oh, what I wouldn't do to be spat at in the face...terrific race, the Romans".

 

[samab]

It's in the interests of every consumer to push for antitrust laws that prevent telco mergers and laws supporting carrier independence and number portability.

I agree --- the "mundane" stuff like national uniform laws on ETF, trial periods, "hidden" contract extensions, deposit returns... these are the stuff that will help consumers.

Geeks advocating that the FCC should put forward some kind of sim-locking laws are just plain wrong in their priorities. Look at Europe --- with all the sim-locking laws, they managed to have a more expensive iphone and more expensive iphone plans.

 

[megfilmworks]

Why on earth would anybody defend Apple's strategy of locking down the phone, creating a large black market and generally making using an iphone seamlessly internationally hideously expensive and awkward (like the caller id issue)? It just doesn't make any sense to me that people would side against their own interests.

I use my US iPhone in Europe and Great Britain all the time.
Seamless, no problems with visual voicemail, caller id works great,
data and international roaming with cheap plans, works just like here at home.
I have NEVER had that with my Blackberry or Razr.
And Apple's strategy has been brilliant, at all levels.

And to Unigolyn who posted "The only, and I do mean ONLY thing offered by AT&T is the world's dumbest non-feature, visual voicemail."
To me and many other busy people, this may be one of the top features on the iPhone.
I get 20-30 voicemails every couple of hours and I have to check them and decide who to answer with the few minutes I have between sessions and meetings. If I had to use the old dialup method, without non linear access I would be much less productive and more stressed.

 

[seedster2]

I was formerly a Cingular Wireless customer. When I purchased an iPhone, there were no AT&T value added features that compelled me to terminate my contract early and switch. I pay the same amount as I would on an AT&T contract and receive superior customer service. For those under the misconception that AT&T provides something different than any other GSM edge provider is severely misled.

Apple is entitled to negotiate and sell the phone however they please. Although the model was a success in the United States, it has not received the same overwhelming welcome overseas likely due to upfront costs and expensive tariffs. Only the market can dictate whether or not they will have to adjust their approach to keep the phone relevant.

Many posters assume that the contracts negotiated overseas are the same as AT&T which is highly unlikely because they would want to leverage the strong domestic sales to get as much as they possibly could which could account for the inflated tariffs. The Telcos and Apple are all the same greedy corps trying to satisfy shareholders.

Selling a million phones with the amount of press the iPhone received isnt a surprise. I am more surprised by the million HTC Touch phones sold or the 5 million LG shines sold.

Anyone should be able to comment on topics related to a specific business model. Opposing opinions give perspective. Many owners post a lot of worthless diatribe here and arent anymore qualified because they own one.

 

[John Musbach]

A German court overturned the temporary injunction issued against T-Mobile requiring it to sell unlocked iPhones in Germany.

Due to the injunction, T-Mobile had been required to offer an unlocked version of the Apple iPhone in Germany. The unlocked iPhone was priced at 999 euro, well above the standard 399 euro price for an iPhone with a two-year T-Mobile contract.

With this reversal, the unlocked iPhone will no longer be available in Germany, though officially unlocked iPhones will still remain available in France.

Article Link

Uhoh, the pressure is mounting for unlocked iPhones to be exported from France...

 

[takao]

Tell that to the kangaroos

haha that's just too great

and for apple not caring about austria: i guess they don't want to compete because it's too competive for them and already way too much into newer technologies compared to our northern neighbours

(same reason why italy isn't top priority either for apple: it's one of the most ahead countries in terms of UMTS users in europe)

 

[PDE]

I use my US iPhone in Europe and Great Britain all the time.
Seamless, no problems with visual voicemail, caller id works great,
data and international roaming with cheap plans, works just like here at home.
I have NEVER had that with my Blackberry or Razr.
And Apple's strategy has been brilliant, at all levels.

Good for you, but it seems that there are people with legitimately unlocked phones having trouble with connecting to their GSM networks outside Germany, and many people have trouble with caller ID formatting when travelling outside some specific Apple-prioritised countries. To say that ATT's international roaming fees for data and voice are cheap is, I suppose, relative to your disposable income. I don't consider it cheap at all, especially not compared to just popping in a local sim card.

(Oh, to return to the old point I made before I weaned myself off the iphone unlock threads: nothing replaces using local sim cards when you need LOCAL people to be able to reach you.)


Anyway...it is what it is.

 

[shyataroo]

So, wait I'm confused, does that mean that the iPhones that were unlocked before are now being re-locked? (and thus forcing you to dump your current contract with a cell company and pay off the remaining months+ the termination fee?)I certainly hope not or else your going to see a army of complainers the likes of which has not been seen since the iPhone price drop.