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I like the idea of what Tesla is doing, and I think their product breaks a lot of new ground. I think eventually companies like Toyota, Nissan, GM, and Ford are going to eventually end up owning this segment (EV) of the marketplace due to the sheer volume of units they can produce, the resources they can throw into R&D, and a biggie. Quality control.

People don't want to pay a premium price for a product and get crap. Look at cable gate and the butterfly keyboard. People expect things to work when they pay a premium price for things.

Premium pricing usually brings with it an air of exclusivity and an expectation of superior product quality. Lately, Tesla has had some serious fit and finish issues with their products, and right now the people purchasing them are essentially early adaptors who are willing to put up with this in exchange for the panache that comes with something new.


When Nissan is making an electric Maxima that has more range, a lower price, better service, and superior fit and finish Tesla will be done. Probably bought up by GM or whatever investment fund is propping up Chrysler these days.

When it comes to insurance, I don't want panache or early adaptation. I want financial protection and service.

Good insurance is as boring as whale excrement until you need it. Then it's about service, service, and service.

I wouldn't buy car insurance from ANY auto maker. Let alone Tesla...
Toyota, Nissan, GM, and Ford are already losing on the volume of *cars* they produce, never mind EVs. See today's Bloomberg article on North American car production: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2022-tesla-factory-california-texas-car-production/
 
I agree that Tesla has a certain “caché” and a bit of head start on most auto manufacturers (especially Honda which is my old favorite but is horribly behind in the EV space). However, if any auto manufacturer stands a chance it may actually be Nissan. When California law required auto manufacturers to produce an electric, Ford, Chevy, Honda and most just retrofitted a small compact with an electric drive train. Nissan actually produced the Leaf in 2011 as an all-electric from the ground up. Mind you, the Leaf was weird and ugly until 2018, but they stuck with it and invested in it. The upcoming Nissan Ariya looks nice. Toyota seems to be the king of the hybrid and has finally moved into plug-in hybrids in recent years. Kia and Hyundai have some nice early entries but these are cars that are OPTIONALLY an EV and have the batteries where the gas tank would go which throws off your steering and sends your groceries around the trunk with excessive g forces when you take a turn. Also, Kia’s one pedal driving is weird — requiring you hold a steering wheel paddle to prevent idling forward if you so much as tap the accelerator or brake after coming to a stop.

Anyway, Nissan’s Leaf is solid and well priced and lacks so many of the stupid quirks you get from a gas car converted to an EV.

Anyway, I am excited to see the upcoming options and who actually gets their design teams doing actual EV’s rather than “optional” EV’s for those of us who don’t want to spend $70K or more.

The Leaf‘s fatal flaw is that the battery is not thermally managed. It’s air cooled and that has led to drastic degradation and range loss in the winter.

The best cheap EV out there when the LG battery doesn’t decide to combust is the Bolt. I’m looking forward to hearing more details about the Equinox EV that will start at $30,000 and is on the newer EV platform.
 
Excuse? What is wrong with outsourcing certain things to other companies that have more expertise in those areas, especially if those companies offer the product/feature for "free".

Tesla outsources various parts of their cars.
Like what? The tires? Tesla is the prime example of a vertically integrated company. They don't outsource software, they BUILD (not assemble) their hardware.
 
Toyota, Nissan, GM, and Ford are already losing on the volume of *cars* they produce, never mind EVs. See today's Bloomberg article on North American car production: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2022-tesla-factory-california-texas-car-production/
That's just a single factory. Also, contrary to what the article seems to imply it's not some kind of productivity miracle. The NUMMI factory in Fremont, CA, which is now the Tesla factory, produced almost as many cars as Tesla now does 15 years ago when it was operated by a Toyota/GM joint venture.
 
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Like what? The tires? Tesla is the prime example of a vertically integrated company. They don't outsource software, they BUILD (not assemble) their hardware.
This is a quote from Tesla's annual 10-K report:

"Our products use thousands of purchased parts that are sourced from hundreds of suppliers across the world. We have developed close relationships with vendors of key parts such as battery cells, electronics and complex vehicle assemblies. "
 
That's just a single factory. Also, contrary to what the article seems to imply it's not some kind of productivity miracle. The NUMMI factory in Fremont, CA, which is now the Tesla factory, produced almost as many cars as Tesla now does 15 years ago when it was operated by a Toyota/GM joint venture.
That's the whole point -- it is just one (abandoned by GM & Toyota) factory. The new Tesla Austin factory will likely end up with more than double the capacity of Fremont. Also, Tesla is the one EV manufacturer without a perpetual battery shortage... Call me when another company outside of China comes anywhere close to Tesla's EV production
 
That's the whole point -- it is just one (abandoned by GM & Toyota) factory. The new Tesla Austin factory will likely end up with more than double the capacity of Fremont.
That may be, but other big manufacturers such as GM, Toyota or VW have more factories and produce a lot more cars per year. So just looking at a single factory isn't the whole picture.

Also, Tesla is the one EV manufacturer without a perpetual battery shortage... Call me when another company outside of China comes anywhere close to Tesla's EV production
Tesla has been affected by battery shortages too, e.g.:

 
That may be, but other big manufacturers such as GM, Toyota or VW have more factories and produce a lot more cars per year. So just looking at a single factory isn't the whole picture.


Tesla has been affected by battery shortages too, e.g.:


Its not a battery shortage per se that is delaying Cybertruck. Cybertruck requires the new 4680 battery and they are not ready yet for mass production. The current 2170 battery is not sufficient for Cybertruck’s needs.
 
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I go back and forth between the Tesla UI and CarPlay on my wife’s vehicle. The fact you can’t search around the map without using a directional pad feels very archaic with CarPlay.
The direction pad just appears on older non-capacitive touch screens. I have full touch controls on my CarPlay.
 
everyone is talking about 'safe driver' stuff with the tesla insurance, meaning the car monitors what you are doing and you get a discount for driving safely or whatever.

is this not in california? i have insurance thru tesla and there's nothing like this in my policy.
 
The direction pad just appears on older non-capacitive touch screens. I have full touch controls on my CarPlay.

Interesting. It’s a full touch screen where the non Apple Maps allows you to move around with a finger on the screen.
 
Tesla has been affected by battery shortages too, e.g.:

The 4680 has never been in production for EVs actually going to customers. You can't have a "shortage" of a future product. You can complain it has taken too long to switch over from the 2170 (which is already ahead of the competition) to the 4680, but a Tesla battery "shortage" does not exist
 
Tires are one. Other things include or have included brakes, windshields, instrument panels, dampers, power steering mechanisms, power seat motors, and so on. Tesla has used outside suppliers for a variety of parts.
What all these have in common is *hardware*. Outsourcing EV software at this point is incompetence.
 
What all these have in common is *hardware*. Outsourcing EV software at this point is incompetence.

It's not incompetence. Companies prioritize resources towards what they think is important for them to do "internally" at a given time and outsource other things due to costs, speed, taking advantage of other companies' expertise, etc. There is no need or urgency for automakers to make all of their hardware internally, and the same is true for developing software.

Things may change as the EV market grows and starts to (finally) become more competitive but we're not there yet.
 
It's not incompetence. Companies prioritize resources towards what they think is important for them to do "internally" at a given time and outsource other things due to costs, speed, taking advantage of other companies' expertise, etc. There is no need or urgency for automakers to make all of their hardware internally, and the same is true for developing software.

Things may change as the EV market grows and starts to (finally) become more competitive but we're not there yet.

My point being not that GM lets say uses suppliers to do some of the work for them. They all do it and it isn't industry dependent. It's that it gives GM an excuse to deliver a vehicle with a subpar interface because people will just use Carplay instead.

It would be like if Apple shipped the iPhone with a crappy OS because you could plug in a device that has a better OS since Apple enabled, "iPhonePlay". That is what my point was. It's not that the manufactures outsource, it's that it enables them to ship half baked crap. If GM had Apple design an OS for their built in cars systems, fine. No bone to pick there.
 
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Agreed. The safety score algorithm will happily ding you for false positive front collision warnings. I had a warning a month ago approaching a particularly steep overpass and my safety score dropped from 98 to 85. (This overpass has triggered collision warnings in my Tesla and a previous Mercedes.) According to stats I've seen, that would've increased my monthly premium by $30-$40 through no fault of my own.

And with all the reports of phantom braking I've seen with the vision-only cars, I'd hate to see what their scores look like. You'd be dinged for the false collision warning and hard braking.
The worst part is their agent would say with confidence that the safety score is no longer beta even the word Beta next to the title in the app. really they don't know what they are selling. I'm switching as I'm not enjoying my new tesla.
 
My point being not that GM lets say uses suppliers to do some of the work for them. They all do it and it isn't industry dependent. It's that it gives GM an excuse to deliver a vehicle with a subpar interface because people will just use Carplay instead.

It would be like if Apple shipped the iPhone with a crappy OS because you could plug in a device that has a better OS since Apple enabled, "iPhonePlay". That is what my point was. It's not that the manufactures outsource, it's that it enables them to ship half baked crap. If GM had Apple design an OS for their built in cars systems, fine. No bone to pick there.

Yes, I had seen your previous post. My last post regarding "it's not incompetence" was in response to someone else.

If particular automakers have notable customer issues with their vehicle UIs, I think they should outsource to an Apple, Microsoft, Google or whomever to make the experience better. My point and opinion was that there's no need to bring all of that in-house. Most automakers are following more of an Android/Android fork model (which happens to be how most phones are sold) than an iOS-like model.

No one way or UI is going to work well for everybody. Tesla has received plenty of complaints about its UI and UI updates too. Just look at all of the complaints about its most recent update last month.
 
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