Thank you for my Vacine & Autism

[pigwin32]

All wonderful points. Well said.

We are wired to see patterns. Often this leads us to draw conclusions which aren't correct. It amazes me that parents consider unproven speculation as a reason to avoid vaccines, which are proven. Of course, for parents of a young child, the emotional but flawed arguments can be compelling, and often such parents aren't exactly fully caught up on their sleep and tend not to always make the most rational of decisions.

This is equally valid for both points of view, the anti-immunisation lobby have to work harder to overcome the emotionally charged arguments of the pro- lobby. I have watched a very disturbing video on the effects of diseases such as whooping cough, measles, and polio on children. It discussed in length the size of each virus and showed what each virus looked like under a microscope, constantly used medical terms without explanation, and showed graphic video footage of children affected by the diseases. At the end of the video the principal sponsor for the production of the video was a large drug company. I naturally assumed that the video was for training doctors on the diseases. Actually the video was targeted at parents.

 

[pigwin32]

As far vaccinations go: These have been a whipping boy for conspiracy theorist for some time. My belief is that the vaccine-autism link is just more tinfoil hat thinking by part of a very small but vocal group of anti-government people. I say this from experience. When in grad school, I met this guy at school. We talked awhile and invited he and his wife over for dinner one night. They came and then showed all this literature about the link between vaccines and shorten life-spans, increase chances of depression/ anxiety etc. THen he said that we couldn't tell anyone about this because the gov't was trying to suppress this information. They would imprison or kill anyone who gave this out because it would foil their plot in making us their willing sheep. My wife and I told them that was fine then ended the evening as politely as we could.

Your experience with one individual has obviously coloured your thinking with respect to the issue. Just because a crackpot says it's so doesn't mean it ain't so.

 

[MongoTheGeek]

This is equally valid for both points of view, the anti-immunisation lobby have to work harder to overcome the emotionally charged arguments of the pro- lobby. I have watched a very disturbing video on the effects of diseases such as whooping cough, measles, and polio on children. It discussed in length the size of each virus and showed what each virus looked like under a microscope, constantly used medical terms without explanation, and showed graphic video footage of children affected by the diseases. At the end of the video the principal sponsor for the production of the video was a large drug company. I naturally assumed that the video was for training doctors on the diseases. Actually the video was targeted at parents.

Looking at commercials targeted at adults i figure you need something that looks targeted at 5 year olds. cf Digger the Dermaphrodite (sp?) and The Big Phlegm ball from the cough pill commercial.

They just teased a story saying there may be a blood test for autism now.

 

[Rod Rod]

The anti-immunisation lobby provide references to support their position, the pro-immunisation lobby rely on scare tactics and misinformation.

It was a pretty balanced post until this statement.

The anti-immunization lobby relies on scare tactics and misinformation and the pro-immunization lobby provides references to support their position. For example, polio vaccine is very well researched and documented. In contrast, the supposed link between vaccination and autism is very weak. I agree that this link needs to be researched, but at the same time it has not yet been established by scientific standards.

 

[ziwi]

If the vaccines were 100% to blame then the majority of us would be autistic. I certantly believe that it may be a contributing factor. Let's thow this one out there - maybe autism is a result of the the combination of vaccines and the use of dairy in the childs diet. Most dairy is filled with antibiotics and hormones for cows and we injest it - it is also a food that small children of vaccination age consume - they would probably be on babyfood still so I am discounting the same contributing factors from it.

It may also be a factor that the medical profession is recognizing it more - before it may have been just people brining in the worst cases and maybe lighter cases are being diagnosed.

Point is that unless there is a 100% correlation between the vaccines and the autism - why scare people out of providing a potentially lifesaving treatment to their child?

I struggled with this for my 2 children and know someone who has an autistic child - most of his research found some links to vaccines, but he modified their diets to be all natural and whole foods and has seen progress in their child - he has 2 and one is autistic and the other is not - both went through the same vaccination plan. THe benefit of the new diet is the progress in his child and the fact that now weight falls off of him - which he contributes to the lack of hormones and chemical additives.

 

[pigwin32]

It was a pretty balanced post until this statement.

The anti-immunization lobby relies on scare tactics and misinformation and the pro-immunization lobby provides references to support their position. For example, polio vaccine is very well researched and documented. In contrast, the supposed link between vaccination and autism is very weak. I agree that this link needs to be researched, but at the same time it has not yet been established by scientific standards.

Did you even bother following any of the links I posted previously? In NZ we are being told there is an meningococcal epidemic and all children must be vaccinated to protect them from this terrible disease. Even a small amount of research will show the supposed epidemic has been in decline for some time now, and the strain of the disease being targeted accounts for less than 40% of cases in Auckland. Go take a look at immunisation awareness, hardly scare tactics and misinformation.

 

[stubeeef]

Thanks for the kind words of hope gang.

I don't want to miss lead anyone, my children are not autistic, or even close, might have a slight LD issue with 2, probably got it from me.

I don't put credence in any single announcement, so I am not following or promoting this at all, just throwing it out on the table for discussion. I know there is a diverse crowd here and some extremely bright professionals with good info for us all.

My children are all vacinated, but just like a new OS or update, I waited one year (or there abouts-been 8 yrs) on the chicken pox vacine to see the broad effects before allowed my first born to get the vaccine. I am not one that is quick to adopt cutting edge medical products, something I got from years in the military and those lovely anthrax vacines! ( i was able to avoid those! happily)

I have found that you must arm yourself with as much info on all medical matters as possible. You may be lucky and get fabulous advice, but I have found the opposite. Here is an example.

With our 3rd child my wife got a call that the blood screening during pregnantcy indicated a chance that our child would be trisomy 13 . Well after the uncontrolled crying of my wife, a lady that called would not talk to me cause I was not carrying the baby, my wife kept putting the phone down to cry. Well guess what, that screening has so many variables based on general population info that they might have also said there was a chance of her being Einstien.
Then my wife got a virus while pregnant, called fifths disease . Well with the trisomy thang and the fifth disease problem we started to get very worried about our baby. Now my wife would never choose an abortion-so for you out there thinking about this-please read to the end.
Well, they wanted to do an amnio to see if the baby had the trisomy problem. Now things get interesting, I was knowledgeable enough to know that an amnio can (not often) cause a miscarriage. So I asked 3 different doctors over a 2 day period what the odd of a miscarriage were, (I am not making this up, as in HeeHaw 'truth is stranger than fiction") I got 3 different answers ( they were all obgyn's in the same practice) the answers I got were 1 in 300, 2 in 300, 3 in 300. Ok so I got the feeling it was low, but possible. Now the next question is, if the baby has trisomy is there anything we can do to "cure" or help her by knowing it from the amnio. Answer-NO. Well why do it? If you want to abort. (Notice if you don't ask no one will tell you, you just go get an amnio) So we could get peace of mind or horrors, either way my wife would not abort, and the amnio would increase the odds of losing a possibly wonderful child. So what to do?
I am very lucky, I have a cousin in Charleston who is a pre-natal surgeon, he told me the condition manifests itself with a heart problem most often. So he hooked my up with a Dr who happen to be a world renown fetal heart sonographer who worked at Wake Forest Baptist hospital in my home town (luck again) who after the sonography said "no problem with that baby and trisomy". But the fifths disease could cause other issues (can't remember them now).
What I want those reading this to understand is; know what you will and won't do, know what and why you are having a test BEFORE you have it, UNDERSTAND the consequences of each test and procedure BEFORE you have it-don't blindly do it cause some Dr said to. We could have had an amnio to see if our baby had trisomy based on a VERY LAME screening and had a miscarriage of my perfectly healthy 6 yr old Miranda Grace.
BECAREFUL AND WEARY, BE YOUR BEST ADVOCATE-CAUSE SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT NOT BE.
Sorry for the length of this, but it still burns me up, that we might have had lost our daughter that I discribe as "the nicest person I know" to our friends.
Here is our beautiful Miranda at 4 yrs old, she is 6 now.

 

[MongoTheGeek]

Sorry for the length of this, but it still burns me up, that we might have had lost our daughter that I discribe as "the nicest person I know" to our friends.
Here is our beautiful Miranda at 4 yrs old, she is 6 now.

She looks just like you

I pulled the bulk of your narrative. Doctors are dummasses. I've dealt with enough of them. They tend to be overly aggressive in testing and treatments often making things worse or going on hunts for odd things.

6 months ago I had a cat scan turn up a bit funny and my liver panel had an enzyme insanely out of whack. I asked the doctor about the liver panel and he told me that it might be Non-Alcoholic Steato-Hepatitis and then said it could be other things. Liver damage is not out of reason so I had some real concerns.

He didn't tell me that enzyme is the first thing to go out of whack with any liver irratation and that the fatty deposits showing up in my liver (caused most likely by being 100# over weight at the time and by the various things that might cause liver damage) were probably enough. I got tests for a half dozen different metal concentrations, hep a b c and k?

After going to my GP and spending a bunch of time on Google I realized that it was almost entirely pointless. Even if there was something wrong most things weren't fixable or the fix was to loose weight.

 

[stubeeef]

She looks just like you

I pulled the bulk of your narrative. Doctors are dummasses. I've dealt with enough of them. They tend to be overly aggressive in testing and treatments often making things worse or going on hunts for odd things.

6 months ago I had a cat scan turn up a bit funny and my liver panel had an enzyme insanely out of whack. I asked the doctor about the liver panel and he told me that it might be Non-Alcoholic Steato-Hepatitis and then said it could be other things. Liver damage is not out of reason so I had some real concerns.

He didn't tell me that enzyme is the first thing to go out of whack with any liver irratation and that the fatty deposits showing up in my liver (caused most likely by being 100# over weight at the time and by the various things that might cause liver damage) were probably enough. I got tests for a half dozen different metal concentrations, hep a b c and k?

After going to my GP and spending a bunch of time on Google I realized that it was almost entirely pointless. Even if there was something wrong most things weren't fixable or the fix was to loose weight.

Funny, had a similar issue with a Life Insurance physical (bought a million plus after a good buddy died suddenly with cancer). They said my liver had some enzyme too high. I took the results to my Navy flt surgeon who lol, he said twice that number of that enzyme would be meaningless. I got the insurance at the reduced rate, but at first it scared the crap out me, I abused alcohol to the limit in college and up to 30yrs old.

 

[GFLPraxis]

*raises hand*

I'm autistic. Asperger's, to be precise.

I was vaccinated as well. It's a possibility that that was the cause.

 

[MongoTheGeek]

*raises hand*

I'm autistic. Asperger's, to be precise.

I was vaccinated as well. It's a possibility that that was the cause.

There is something that I ahve wanted to ask. How are forums for you? Are they a good/better form of social interaction? Do computers make you feel more normal ie having everyone at the same level?

 

[oldschool]

there are a plethora of other variables between an isolated community and the rest of society... the whole vaccination angle just has more than it's share of conspiracy theorists, so it takes the blame. While vaccinations themselves can (and have) cause adverse reactions in the general population, this is hardly enough to indict them in causing autism.

that was the first thing i thought of when i opened the link. the amount of genetic variability is decreased in amish communities. also people have to look at the risks/benefits of vaccines. i mean even if it is proven to increase the incidence of autism, we should look at the increase in premature death without them.

 

[flyfish29]

As I understand it the mercury is only used as a preservative and not for the actual vaccine- I also understand that we can get the same vaccine without the mercury. I don't know what it does to storage, but it is possible as I understand.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Vaccines have been a lightening rod for many over the years.

On some basis, some vaccines do require a good looking at (some of which our military are required to receive) for their effectiveness and for future ramifications.

I know that is not quite the same, but many years ago i was told that each form of technology has its own pollution. Autism may be a "pollution" provided by the "technology".

At the same time we need to look at the real numbers of those that may have been saved through vaccines, and the countless lives lost or hurt by not doing them. A "cost-benefit analysis" if you will.

 

[devman]

Hey Stubeef,

this is a good thread. Lots of commonsense advice in it.

There's also been recent studies that do not support the link from vaccines to autism.

Here's just two links, but I know there are more. http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/39/8/54 http://www.hon.ch/News/HSN/515304.html

Clearly a big part of the rise in the number of cases is the much better awareness and detection methods these days plus the FAR broader classifcations that now exist. There's a very, very broad range of conditions that fall under an Autism Spectrum Disorder. These include typical Autism, Aspergers, Semantic Pragmatic Disorder, and others such as the wonderful catch-all of PDDNOS (pervasive developmental disorder - not specific).

Take care.

 

[.Andy]

For anyone after information on anything medical like this I would suggest that you do a quick search on PUBMED long before you turn to Google. This represents a wealth of peer-reviewed papers on any subject you need such as vaccines and autism. The database includes the abstracts of pretty much every medical paper published so you can read up on what's bothering you. If in doubt speak with you doctor or a medical professional whose opinion you trust - not a newspaper article that is not referenced. Remember the main goal of newspapers is to sell advertisments.

The overwhelming data is that the vaccines that are recommended for your kids are good for them. In the end it is your choice however, so make it an informed one. Every single drug or vaccine you take has side effects. This can range from rashes, fever, or in extreme cases death. No one will deny this. From aspirin right down to the small pox vaccine everything has adverse effects. With vaccines for our kids in every case they are at far less risk of the side effects than they are of the diseases these protect against.

It is most likely that the causes of autism are multifactorial. If one element as common as vaccination was causing autism it would be blatantly obvious not only to medical researchers but also to the general public. A researcher would be famous and rich overnight if they could make such a certain link. Just remember you could easily say that everyone who has autism has drunk water from copper pipes....One plausible contributor is the age at which women are giving birth - across the developed world this is increasing as couples choose careers/lifestyle/security etc before having children. We know this is the case with Down Syndrome. It could also be that we are just better at detecting mild autism as has been mentioned which we are undoubtably are. Some types of autism are caused by genetic problems which occur during the early development of the embryo - it could also be due to problems with the sperm or egg. These are set down long before vaccination comes into play.

If you'd like to find out the cause for certain or for it to be available when your kids have your grandchildren, how about you donate a few dollars to your local university/hospital research units who are looking into Autism. They will be very thankful - the more money they have the more avenues they can explore into linking autism to its causes.

Medical Researcher .Andy

 

[GFLPraxis]

There is something that I ahve wanted to ask. How are forums for you? Are they a good/better form of social interaction? Do computers make you feel more normal ie having everyone at the same level?

Hmmmm...I'd say yes.

I do feel more normal having everyone at the same level. I'm able to compete in games and can be respected for being good at things. In real life? I suck at sports completely. I have a hard time with body space so I look weird with groups and stick out. Don't have that problem online.


However I still run into problems once in a while. I talk too much. You'll find my posts are often gigantic paragraphs.

As a result, my reputation varies depending which board you're on.

For example, on the Pro-networks, Macworld, and Next-gen forums, I am generally (I think ) considered to be helpful in that I give every single detail I know when discussing a subject.


On the SGN boards and somewhat on the sd.net boards I am considered a know-it-all that makes huge posts and bothers everyone.

On this board, it depends who you ask...lol.


But yeah, it does feel like a more even playing field, and I do feel more comfortable talking to multiple people online than a large group. NOT THAT I DON'T HAVE FRIENDS- I'm fine with a couple friends, one or two people- but when I am with a large group in real life, I end up sticking out and being the one who sits on the bench, OR being the one who talks too much and makes a fool of himself.

 

[MongoTheGeek]

Another Link...

 

[stubeeef]

Interesting discussion on Scarborough Country with Robert Kennedy Jr and the preservatives in these vacines. They believe it is from the vacines. Haven't checked this yet but supposed to be on Robert Kennedy's website, don't have the address yet............looking........

 

[aloofman]

Interesting discussion on Scarborough Country with Robert Kennedy Jr and the preservatives in these vacines. They believe it is from the vacines. Haven't checked this yet but supposed to be on Robert Kennedy's website, don't have the address yet............looking........

I'm shocked that someone is actually watching Scarborough Country.

 

[wdlove]

It is important to do an investigation of the link with Thimersal and autism. Don Imus has been on a crusade to get to the bottom of this problem.

Here is the information from Robert Kennedy.

http://www.daubertontheweb.com/2005/06/thimerosal-and-autism.html

 

[Dave00]

Let's say most teen pregnancy happens at age 16-17. Most teens get their drivers license at age 16. does that mean drivers licences cause pregnancy?

Ah yes, the common fallacy of post hoc, ergo propter hoc . Was responsible for a number of people losing their lives in New England in the 1600's, as detailed in "The Crucible."

Vaccines have never been shown to cause autism or other rare diseases claimed by folks on the internet. There have been several very large studies recently demonstrating this. On the other hand, vaccines are responsible for the complete elimination of smallpox (except in the lab), which has at various times wiped out 1/3 of the world's population; the near-eradication of polio; and the dramatic reduction in childhood mortality in developed countries. Influenza vaccination saves thousands of lives each year, as does pneumonia vaccination.

Today's polio vaccination in the US is solely with inactivated polio vaccine (IPV), which does not cause polio. If there were universal vaccination, polio would be wiped from the face of the earth, and one of humanity's great scourges would be gone forever. At that point one could stop polio vaccination for everyone (as has been done with smallpox). However, if there is a premature cessation of vaccination effected by the pro-scare community, we might see a return of this terrible disease.

Vaccines are one of the greatest advances in medicine. It's too bad some people profit from scaring others into not vaccinating.

D. Sacco, MD

 

[Dave00]

Also, keep in mind that vaccines usually only protect against a single strain. This year's flu shots for example didn't contain the most commonly contracted flu strain. So all the people who went out and got a flu vaccine were not protected against the most common strain "going around". The meningitis vaccine only protects against one or two specific viruses that cause meningitis. It does not protect your child against meningitis.

There are two meningitis vaccines, each of which prevent 4 strains of the meningococcal bacteria, including the two most common in the US.

Most meningitis is viral. Viral meningitis will make you feel like hell but won't generally kill you. Whereas bacterial meningitis, in particular menigococcal meningitis, is rapidly fatal in an alarming number of cases. Once you've seen someone with meningococcal meningitis you never forget it. High fevers, severe headaches, hemorrhages, delirium. This affects young people disproportionately, and those that do survive can have devastating neurological problems for life.

Universal vaccination of dorm-residing freshmen in the US would save around 5 lives per year. (CDC Data) That may not seem like much, but imagine someone you know, at age 18, just keeling over and dying in a matter of hours to days. (You mentioned HiB vaccination - I've also seen someone nearly die from HiB meningitis.)

Agreed that vaccination represents a risk-benefit equation. That's why there are vaccines for a number of disorders that are not used routinely in the US. (Hepatitis A, Typhoid, Yellow Fever, etc.) But the ones that are used have a demonstrated reward-greater-than-risk profile. Efficacy of vaccination requires parents to abide by these recommendations; not doing so puts everyone at risk, as evidenced by the resurgence of mumps in the UK.

-D.

 

[Dave00]

With our 3rd child my wife got a call that the blood screening during pregnantcy indicated a chance that our child would be trisomy 13 . [...]
Well, they wanted to do an amnio to see if the baby had the trisomy problem.

This is one of the dirty secrets in obstetrics, and something I've never understood. Patients are never counselled about the "triple test", a blood test screening for certain genetic disorders. I routinely have told friends & family members, if you're not interested in having an abortion, DO NOT get the triple test. The order tends to be Triple Test -> Amnio if positive -> Counsel on abortion if amnio positive, when instead it should be Counsel on abortion -> if would consider abortion, triple test -> Amnio if positive. The rationale I've heard from some is that you never know what you're going to do if you're actually faced with the situation of having a possibly genetically disordered child. Which is offensively paternalistic, in my opinion.

The "Triple Test" is an example of how a "simple blood test" can be not so simple. I counsel men the same way on the PSA test; it's never been shown to definitely save lives; however, if it's positive it's hard not to proceed with a biopsy, which has certain risks.

-D.

 

[MongoTheGeek]

Universal vaccination of dorm-residing freshmen in the US would save around 5 lives per year. (CDC Data) That may not seem like much, but imagine someone you know, at age 18, just keeling over and dying in a matter of hours to days. (You mentioned HiB vaccination - I've also seen someone nearly die from HiB meningitis.)

I knew 1 of them (not very well though).

A lot of diseases are worth vaccinating for in terms of lives saved.

Some diseases are worth vaccinating for just to wipe them out.