Thanks for everything Apple!

Discussion in 'MacBook Pro' started by mrluke, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. mrluke, Feb 6, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018

    mrluke macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2016
    #1
    I bought my 15" MacBook pro with touch bar exactly 15 months ago. 2 days ago I was browsing the web when my whole screen went green. Immediately turned it off and rebooted. After the reboot anything white and grayscale appears completely green on my display, I've updated twice and this is now a permanent thing with extreme flickering every few minutes, all shadowing is also blurry and weirdly discoloured. I immediately called Apple and got an appointment booked next day at my local store, so I took it in and they had a look at it. We compared my display to the demo MacBooks in the store and mine was completely discoloured and washed out compared to the other retina displays. She ran some diagnostics and after 30 minutes the diagnostics showed nothing wrong and all of the internal connections are good.

    She then told me "sorry but it's out of warranty, your device needs a new display. this will cost £700." Asking why I have to pay for a hardware fault on a £2,000 laptop I bought a little over a year ago, she then told me "I know it's unfair as there's clearly no damage to the laptop and is spotless inside (this thing has been cased, regularly cleaned and only used on soft-surfaces since day one!) but the warranty has now expired and you'll have to pay." I just said ok and left before I made a scene.

    Just looking for advice... I was told when I bought this mac that i'd have coverage on hardware faults for six years, but Apple told me this is just due to wear and tear and my screen doesn't count. So what counts exactly towards this "6 year hardware coverage"? Can't you just argue anything is wear and tear? What do you guys think, do I just pay half the laptops value to fix an issue I know is due to faulty hardware or shall I take this further?

    Cheers Everyone :(
     
  2. raqball macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2016
    #2
    1st of all, that sucks!

    6 years of hardware coverage? What country are you in?

    I doubt Apple will do much but you can try and escalate a case through their system. Write Tim Cook an email as even if he does not read it or respond someone at Apple will.

    Lastly if those efforts fail you can try looking into consumer assistance entities in your country. In the US you could contact your State Attorney General and / or the Better Business Bureau.

    Good luck and I hope you have some luck getting this resolved. Apple Care + is almost a requirement on these machines..
     
  3. jerryk macrumors 601

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    Nov 3, 2011
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    #3
    I assume you are in the UK. If so, I thought the warranty period was 2 years.
     
  4. velocityg4 macrumors 601

    velocityg4

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Location:
    Georgia
    #4
    As I understand the UK law for 6 years of protection on electronic goods. You have to go back to the store you bought it from. You have to prove that this was a design flaw from the time of purchase. If the store refuses to repair or replace. Then I assume you'd have to file a complaint and fight them in court.
     
  5. macdudesir macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2011
    Location:
    Blacksburg, VA
    #5
    It's very unfortunate, but if you buy a car with a 3 year warranty, and then 3 and a half years later the A/C goes out, you don't expect it to be covered do you? It's just an unfortunate fact of life, and I'm sorry it happened to you. But it is not really Apple's responsibility to replace it outside of the warranty you knew you were getting when you bought it.
     
  6. kohlson macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    #6
    Apple Care is important when buying the later Mac laptops. It seems everything is very tightly integrated, and therefore expensive to fix. I suspect this is not the advice you're looking for.
    I am a little surprised at the repair cost. My 2013 15-MBP went black over the summer. For about $600 I got a new logic board, 1TB SSD, and display. The original estimate had been for just the SSD, The rep explained that this was the "maximum repair cost" or something to that effect.
    Did you purchase the laptop with a credit card that offers extended warranty protection? This may help.
    Finally, sometimes my dealings with Apple don't result in my satisfaction. I say thank you and come back another time. I can't think of a case where the second approach didn't work out better.
     
  7. Lucas Godfrey macrumors 6502

    Lucas Godfrey

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Location:
    Somewhere between Here and There
    #7
    Just to clarify on some points being made here

    UK standard warranty is 1 year not two.
    There’s no 6 year warranty
    There’s consumer law which allows you to make a claim for inherent (at purchase) faults.
    Fault must be noted and reported in the first 6 months post purchase.
    You then have 6 years to exercise your claim.

    The issue wasn’t there at the point of purchase, as you describe, which means the unit did not have an inherent fault which means you don’t have any consumer protection on this fault occurrence.

    Buy AppleCare people!
     
  8. SteveJUAE macrumors 68030

    SteveJUAE

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2015
    Location:
    Land of Smiles
    #8
    What a shame

    I think you have misunderstood UK/EU law where you have up to 6 years to file a claim where the fault existed from time of purchase

    Proving the fault in the first instance can be hard if for example you cannot find lots of similar postings on screen failures

    You have to comply with several other conditions before you could go to small claims court, but I think you would be on thin ice with this

    Now if it was the new KB you would be on better grounds
     
  9. jerryk macrumors 601

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2011
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    #9
    Thanks for clearing this up. It sounds like the key is it must be an inherent design flaw, not just a one off failure.

    If that is the case, then the OP may be out of luck. There does not seem to be a rash of display failures on MBPs.
     
  10. keysofanxiety macrumors G3

    keysofanxiety

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    #10
    Thank you! I’m sick to the hilt of everybody saying there’s an extended warranty in the UK or say “go through consumer law, they’ll sort it out”. As if you just say the words and it happens like some secret code. Have any of those people actually tried?!

    Man it’s a pain. Consumer law covers you if the product was inherently faulty, not if it fails when out of warranty. You have to prove that. Sure, it got my housemate’s 17” 2011 Radeongate MBP replaced with a brand-new 2017 tMBP (and Apple offered that because he’d originally purchased it from the online store!) but that’s because it was bought from Apple and it was a documented, widespread point of failure.

    I’ve seen HP refuse service for a laptop still in warranty with a shot graphics card, because they tested it for 3 hours and couldn’t duplicate the problem so sent it back the following without a courtesy call, then refused to collect again. Or Lenovo with their stupid repair policy - send the whole laptop off for 3 weeks to get a new power cable. It’s a joke. Those are the real cowboys that need to get hit by consumer law.
     
  11. mrluke thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2016
    #11
    Just double checked my invoice, the MacBook is actually only 12months and 23days old. 23 days out of warranty, £700 out of pocket. I will most certainly never pay the full amount up front again, feel robbed so disappointed in Apple :(
     
  12. macdudesir macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2011
    Location:
    Blacksburg, VA
    #12
    23 days...In that case I would try another store or another appt...or try elevating it with cust. service. I feel like they should be able to do something about that...

    At any rate, I guess you'll be buying AppleCare+ next time :)
     
  13. plm2 macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    #13


    This is rubbish : the OP ought to look up EU/UK law himself rather than take such terrible advice.
     
  14. Apple Fritter macrumors regular

    Apple Fritter

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2017
    Location:
    127.0.0.1
    #14
    Wow, 23 days out of warranty, good grief. That must feel like a pretty bad joke. :eek:

    You seriously contact Apple again. If I had a customer with that kind of problem I'd do anything to find a fair solution. But maybe that's the reason why my company isn't the world's most valuable. :p

    Good luck and make sure to get an ACPP for those tiny glued-up bricks in the future.
     
  15. cambookpro macrumors 603

    cambookpro

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    #15
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but faults don't have to be reported within the first 6 months, just have to prove they were present. Faults can be present at the time of manufacturing without symptoms until a later date.

    For what it's worth, I've had an iPhone 5 and Thunderbolt Display both replaced under the consumer laws. They were both about two years' old. Never had a problem claiming under that, if I were the OP I'd ask to speak to a manager. YMMV.
     
  16. sfkeepay macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    #16
    I second Macdudesir in suggesting another Apple store, if others are in your area. And while it is preposterous that a year-old, responsibly handled Macbook Pro would not receive an immediate, fully covered repair, the realities you are confronting recommend of deploying all available means of persuasion. Dress up, arrange to appear when the store is fairly crowded, sound authoritative but respectful and polite, compliment the decision maker early-on, point out that it is out-of-warrenty (establishes your honesty right away, builds trust and obligation) but just barely so, describe your resposible ownership, the protective environment (yes, even happen to mention you have pictures of that pampered workspace right here on your iPhone) you created for the laptop, etc. If you still face resistence, walk them through it matter-of-factly but a a volume sufficient for other customers to hear. “So becuase the Macbook Pro is three weeks from warranty, and even though it was responsibly used and maintained, and despite the fault being with Apple hardware and not user error, Apple will not honor my request to make this right?” Then, if necessary and possible, very, very kindly escalate up the store's foodchain. From the beginning, whenever there is downtime, try to chat with other customers and employees. Even, if you are determined, bring one or more confederates with you. It's always more difficult to turn down a crowd. Finally, if justice has been denied you, negotiate. Offer to pay half, etc.

    Of course, I agree that none of this should be necessary. I understand the arguments from the other side, and concede they are both initially compelling and easily defended. But I can't agree that the world's premiere computer company has no relationship of responsibility to its products or customers beyond its published statement of self-absolution. That's the same way of seeing the world that decreed “shareholder value” the ultimate and overriding metric of organizational success. Easily understood? Sure. A “good thing”? Definately not. Warranties should protect Apple from suffering losses to the irresponsible actions of bad actors, scammers, and those who have yet to learn how to behave towards their possessions. But for everyone else, Apple should not hide behind an arbitrary deadline and tell good customers “too bad, you should have spent even more money, and now you have no choice.” Twelve months, even at this level of engineering complexity, is just preposterous. This is, of course, a much deeper topic and there are good people on both sides, but you have a problem to solve, and I am going on way too long. Good luck.
     
  17. mrluke thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2016
    #17
    What shall I say to them? What did you say?
    I know they'll just throw that wear and tear BS back at me :mad:

    I've got another appointment next week so any advice on how I should proceed would be appreciated by anyone!
     
  18. cambookpro macrumors 603

    cambookpro

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    #18
    For the Thunderbolt Display, they at first said I was out of luck as it was out of AppleCare, but pressed them on the EU directive and they relented. They even have a specific section for claiming under it on their iPads, so I don't know why they were being difficult.

    The repair went wrong about a month later, so I brought it back and they just swapped it for a new one.
     
  19. haydn! macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Location:
    UK
    #19
    The confusion around the six month window is down to who's responsibility it is to prove the fault was there from day one after that point.

    If a fault is reported within the six months, it is presumed by law that the fault existed at purchase. If it's within the first 30 days, you're entitled to a full refund, if its after 30 days but within six months you must allow the retailer the opportunity to repair it. They may then offer a replacement or refund if this doesn't work out.

    If the problem is reported after six months, it is technically up to you to prove it was faulty at purchase. Retailers are not legally obliged to acknowledge faults after this point, or make repairs. You're also not legally entitled to a full refund after this point. However most retailers offer at least 12 month warranty which goes above and beyond UK law, extending some of your rights from the first six month window to a full 12 months, but they're under no legal obligation to do so. And of course, extended warranties like Apple Care may extend some of your rights further.

    Your product is out of warranty so Apple are not required to acknowledge any problems. However, you do still have six years to make a claim under Consumer Law. But as you're past the first 6 month window, you need to prove the problem existed at purchase now, and that would require an independent inspection and report.

    Source: UK Consumer Rights Act 2015 and Returning faulty goods
     
  20. Lucas Godfrey macrumors 6502

    Lucas Godfrey

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Location:
    Somewhere between Here and There
    #20
    The law states that the burden of proving the fault was there shifts to the customer after 6 months. Pretty difficult to do if not reported.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 6, 2018 ---
    Provide some evidence where I am wrong, or remain silent.
     
  21. sfkeepay, Feb 6, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018

    sfkeepay macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    #21
    Here are three opinions that are in support of your claim. I also agree, looking at your laws, that the “normal wear and tear” standard strongly advocates for the position. The other side, however, is basically saying that (1) Apple sells laptops which may fail under normal use anytime after 12 months, (2) a year is a reasonable lifetime for their laptops and (3) both a and b are broadly known and considered by most Apple customers, government regulators, advocates, etc. to be reasonable and acceptable. Which, of course, is nonsense. (Or, as is so colorfully stated on your side of the pond, “complete rubbish”.) I would also highlight the defensible argument that the physical condition of your Macbook Pro provides a reasonable (if not absolute) argument supporting your claim of responsible ownership. If it is - as you imply - essentially unmarred by incident or carelessness, that is compelling testimony benefitting your assertions.

    I think the point here might be: Go to another Apple store, present your case, and if they turn you down, make sure you plainly state your friendly but unwavering intention to invoke the consumer laws, period. The law is, after all, in letter and in spirit, on your side. And please write an update when you can.

    Here are the three opinions I mentioned:

    #1

    Had my Mid 2012 15" MBP Retina for just under two years now, and the warranty expired after 1 year (I didn't bother with Applecare).

    It had the 1st gen LG panel fitted, and it was exhibiting pretty bad screen ghosting (image retention).

    Phoned Apple (it was bought from them online originally), and I mentioned the UK Consumer Law option to try and get the screen replaced for free.

    They were excellent, told me the process, which I followed, and I now have it back, fitted with a brand new screen (it's the 2nd gen LG one, I have checked) - all free of charge.

    So, it can be done, if you have any issues with your Apple hardware that you believe exist due to a hardware fault (in this case an inherent fault with the original LG screens), and it's out of warranty, I'd advise you to follow up with Apple and state that you want to make a Consumer Law claim. It may well be successful, depending of course on the nature of the fault and the age of your hardware.

    #2

    Apple sells high end laptops and the reasonable expectation is for them to last more than 1 year!

    You don't have to prove anything as long as you haven't caused any harm/abuse. If it doesnt last that long its a manufacturing error (bad parts, bad assembley, etc.), period. User errors are usually physical damage (dent/scratch, broken glass, liquid, etc.) and easy enough to spot so there would be little to argue and are NOT covered by AppleCare either .

    I guess AppleCare just make its easier becasue well almost no questions are asked, and there is also tech support which I personally dont care about.

    #3

    So long as there's no damage to the laptop and you can honestly say you've used it as it was intended to be used, it should be covered. I see no valid argument from their side - the issue has been caused by one or more of; poor quality components, poor workmanship, poor QA, or a design flaw.

    As far as I see it, this issue breaks the 'fit for purpose' quality standard, based on Apple's own definition of 'fit for purpose' - the 2013 MBP is not considered "obsolete" by Apple themselves, yet yours is being rendered unusable prematurely.
     
  22. sublunar macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2007
    #22
    I'd try a different Apple store for sure (sounds like a lack of sympathy - sticking to the rules - by the original store person), but it might be worth phoning Apple customer support and try to get a satisfaction code for a repair. 'wear and tear' sounds like a weak excuse and I'd (politely but firmly, we're British) kick up a fuss with Apple customer support on the phone partly based on lack of sympathy from the original Apple store person. What is especially irking is the 'six year warranty coverage' - did you buy the MacBook Pro from an Apple Store? It doesn't sound like the kind of thing that a sales person ought to say. @sfkeepay makes good points above. As you say, 'fit for purpose' is another phrase to use in relation to the sale of goods act. A £2000 laptop should not die just after the warranty, especially as you say it's in pristine condition.
     
  23. mrluke, Feb 7, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018

    mrluke thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2016
    #23
    Thanks for your reply!
    This is the exact reason why I didn't feel like AppleCare would be necessary... especially as I only planned on owning this Mac for 2 years and then selling and upgrading. You've literally aired my exact opinion of the whole issue of AppleCare. For example, I own another laptop which is 8 years old, there is NO faults with this laptop at all and there never has been... the laptop cost me £300. So my point is, I bought a very high end premium laptop and assumed wrongly this would last years before ever needing any kind of repairs, I did not expect my £300 laptop to outlive a £2,500 one, given the whole "you get what you pay for". So by Apple telling me this is "wear and tear" they are essentially telling me their £2,500 product is designed to only last a year? After that, you need to pay extortionate amounts to keep it usable?

    I'm not an unreasonable person at all, I've worked in customer service before myself. But my point being, if I had dropped or damaged it myself, I wouldn't even be writing this thread... if my warranty was out by years, again, I wouldn't be here. Again, I know my warranty is out of date and people keep telling me to suck it up and "next time buy AppleCare", and you're all completely reasonable, however I just feel a bit mistreated by Apple when this is clearly (and admittedly on their behalf) an issue with a faulty component and I'm being left to pay massive amounts of money for something I haven't caused. I honestly don't feel like I'm being unreasonable! :oops:

    What makes the situation worse is my friend had a display change on his MacBook that was 3 years out of warranty for FREE!

    I will certainly keep you updated on my situation. I've got an appointment to go back next week and I'm going to see the manager and try to approach the situation calmly and politely despite my frustration with them. Any tips on what I should argue to the manager to try and get this resolved?



    Thanks sublunar. I certainly stayed polite and reasonable with them, I don't think they even knew how pissed off I was. I'm going back next week to try again but I'm certainly expecting them to keep up their "wear and tear" argument. Apple is the 9th biggest company in the world and they're making me pay for a hardware fault after giving them £2,500, disgusting IMO. I've always heard such great things about their geniusbar and always had great experiences myself but the way I've been treated just doesn't fit with the whole Apple experience at all! Am I being unreasonable, would everyone else just pay £700 after 13 months of buying a £2,500 laptop? Any tips for when I go back?
     
  24. New_Mac_Smell macrumors 68000

    New_Mac_Smell

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2016
    Location:
    Shanghai
    #24
    Have you got a picture of this discolouration and a video of the flickering you describe? If you haven't already done so, get one for your records as you may need it down the line. Often taking these things into a store makes it difficult for the engineer and they have to go on your faith, if you show them a video they usually agree with it and try sort it out. I can't tell but I feel we don't have all the evidence here to properly advise, and it'll go around in circles making you more frustrated as people start quoting laws and stuff.

    Assuming it's out of warranty, then Apple are under no obligation to provide any repair. Like it or not but that's the law and that's what companies stick to. You can decide to never touch Apple again as that's your prerogative, but regardless of how much you pay for something the law is the law. Usually, but not always, Apple offer good-will repairs for situations where something is just outside the warranty period. Again they do not need to do this, so it is at the discretion of a store. Trying a different store and being polite can help here, if you are rude then they will not offer you something they don't have to.

    The 6 year law which has been thrown around means that the product has to be fit for service for a period of 6 years, it is not an automatic replacement/repair within that period. And the onus is on the consumer to prove an inherent fault. This can be extremely difficult to do, and is not as simple as quoting the law and hoping for the best. You need to take it to an independent specialist and have them confirm the fault was present at time of manufacture, this is the way to uphold the law in this case - something too difficult and costly for most people, which is why you get the law quoted but rarely see action on it unless there is a noted widespread issue.

    In your case, I would collect evidence of the issue and try another store. Remember they are doing you a favour so be polite. Essentially the reason for your frustration lies in their own testing, you have reported an issue, they have tested it and their systems show no fault is present. So they are not going to replace something when their system shows no fault, there isn't even a system in place for doing this as it would immediately be flagged as suspicious. So you need to show evidence of a fault that doesn't rely on their testing - hence a video.

    If you do this, then they should repair it for you free of charge, but they need to see the fault in order to register it as faulty and be allowed to do this for you. This would come under being fit for purpose and is completely fine, just don't get too stressed out with laws and stuff because they are not as strong as what people think. And a lot of what Apple does is based on good-will and store discretion, this is why you hear random hero stories and other horror stories, it's half luck and half getting them to do something they don't have to do.

    That's just a balanced sideline bit of advice for you, hopefully you get things sorted out.
     
  25. maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Location:
    Boston
    #25
    Why you misunderstood your rights, I understand that your disappointment in having it fail in a little over a years time. With Laptops I frequently purchase AppleCare, but that's just me.
     

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