the 16" is an (obvious) admission of guilt in my eyes

[thadoggfather]

They didn't create a new-new keyboard, they just fell back on the old one mechanically.

now some people could not be happier to go with the tried and true, and while I agree its better than blindly putting faith into the fact Apple will get it right finally with some new unknown, I cant help but feel like there is no argument ' there are keyboards for everyone' when the next refresh of 13" Pros and Air will almost certainly have these as well. and these keyboards don't excite me, based on the fact that I'm already extremely familiar with them. Saying that inspiration was drawn on 'magic keyboard' is disingenuous deflecting too that they wanna bury the hatchet that is butterfly keyboards, durability and reliability wise. I really think they had something on their hands, if only they could improve that one nitpick that they are built to fail, and add some frigging travel.

I just wish since that proved to be the case that it was the same as older keyboards, that Apple didn't sit on it for as long as they did. It's like they watched customers continuously fall into a hole they dug, while debating how deep of a hole they can dig before fans won't ever forgive them. three years seems to be that inflection point of enough is enough.

The touchbar too , great to separate ESC key and give that back but I wish there was some new breakthrough in touch bar's utility and acknowledging that while some of the UI looks pretty (adjusting volume and such), most of it takes longer than the traditional function keys it replaces. Apple could've SOOOO easily charged $100 maybe even $200 while laughing about it and having people bite, to not have a touchbar, like how they offered matte screens as a BTO when glass screens was all the rage... the touchbar just not what most people are after imo so much so they'd elect to pay more to get it removed. as for watching the Jonathan Morison interview with Schiller discussing the 16" , he said esc key was the thing most people complained about... what about MagSafe, the apple glow logo, and omission of USB-A legacy ports? Schiller said that he carries dongles around like all of us, when Morisson asked if we could ever see the SD card slot to return and I don't think the ' I have to suffer so you all do too ' argument is a particularly sound one in this case, and I really like Phil charm and passion level wise.

 

[mightyjabba]

Bottom line is Apple did try and come up with an innovative new keyboard and failed repeatedly. I wouldn't have wanted to have them try again from scratch when the scissor switch is a perfectly good option that just about everyone seems to like. Not everything needs to be rethought and redesigned. Ideally they would have given up earlier, but at least they actually listened to what people wanted.

 

[thadoggfather]

Bottom line is Apple did try and come up with an innovative new keyboard and failed repeatedly. I wouldn't have wanted to have them try something completely new when the scissor switch is a perfectly good option that just about everyone seems to like. Not everything needs to be rethought and redesigned. Ideally they would have given up earlier, but at least they actually listened to what people wanted.

its certainly not all bad by any means, but the fact that they did go back to the perfectly good option tells you how you should feel about Apple's faith in their butterfly keyboards. To anyone observant reading between the lines, 'magic keyboard was our inspiration' translates directly to ' we screwed up, but we're apple, so we'd never say that'

 

[mightyjabba]

To anyone observant reading between the lines, 'magic keyboard was our inspiration' translates directly to ' we screwed up, but we're apple, so we'd never say that'

I think this is literally everyone's take on the situation.

 

[thadoggfather]

I think this is literally everyone's take on the situation.

I think we'll find out from this thread in time that thats not unanimously the case , especially for people who are customers of the 2015 MB onward, or 2016 Pro onward (Notwithstanding this 16" of course)

 

[Lobwedgephil]

I can't argue with most of what you said, and I really believe this is the reason why there was no big "event" to release this computer. They made the improvements that they needed to, but they couldn't go on stage and talk it up. So I do agree that this is the admission that they failed with the butterfly keyboard. All be 100% clear when every laptop in the line has this new/old keyboard.

However we got here though, I am very happy with the result, and very happy they went back to what works. I had no problem with the previous keyboard in typing, but coming back to this keyboard now, it is hard to describe how much I like it more.

I did not expect them to make a larger/bigger computer to also address the performance issues, combining the two I am pretty impressed with the new Apple. Sure, a lot of people won't like or want the extra size and weight, but I bet the majority won't have an issue with it.

Guess we will see with sales, but from my friends, etc, small sample size, seems like this is going to be a hit.

 

[thadoggfather]

and I really believe this is the reason why there was no big "event" to release this computer.

hadn't even thought about that ! good point

 

[DanMan619]

Not to be rude, but we're all kinda already on the same page about this. The whole reason Apple went back to the scissor switch keyboard is because they knew it was time to throw in the towel on the butterfly keyboard. We all know Apple wouldn't draw a ton of attention to it and would "rebrand" it the Magic Keyboard to make it seem like a new thing and not reverting back to what worked before in order to not publically admit mistake. Admission of guilt or not, whatever, they went back to the good keyboard and now everyone's happy and we can all move on.

 

[leman]

I think you are overdramatising this.

Every design process goes through iterative improvements. You have an idea that you think is good, you implement it, you find out there were issues you eater didn't think about (or you didn't think they would be this bad), you adjust, you go on.

From this perspective, sure, you can interpret this as an "admission of guilt". For me this is just normal work process. Most importantly, this shows that a) Apple is listening to user feedback and b) Apple's newly reconstituted design team keeps a more pragmatic approach than one lead by Jony Ive (I adore the guy, but I also agree that lately his vision might have been clouding some of more practical aspects of the game).

My take from all this is that Apple is far from dead innovation-wise (as claimed by many), and that the are willing and able(!!) to adapt and change their priorities in an agile way. I think this is great for both Appel customers and Apple shareholders. At the same time, it shows that they are still following their own unique vision while striving to make things better, instead of falling to the easy lure of mediocrity currently found in PC industry. In the nutshell: Apple is still Apple, alive and kicking, and they are still doing what Apple does best.

 

[impulse462]

I just wish I had an option for no touchbar because its completely useless and any real "pro" uses keyboard shortcuts so they don't have to look away from the screen while working.

and its not like the touchbar even just doesn't do anything. it actively freezes and glitches and its really just a terrible piece of hardware that they felt they had to add to address the surface's touchscreens. all they have to do is offer a verison without the touchbar and theyll see the writing on the wall but instead we're all forced to live with their stubbornness.

if anyone has an extremely narcissistic friend or relative, its similar to dealing with them imo

 

[thadoggfather]

.. What was all the hooplah that the last run of butterfly keyboard macs finally solved the problem? Was that a lie, like that iPhone 5 is the perfect size with that added 0.5” height only to change by iPhone 6 and conform to android competition?

While honestly overall I think it makes perfect sense to go back, I’m being a bit contrarian in this post

 

[fokmik]

Since the new one has 1mm travel vs 0.8mm butterfly keys...when the imacs keyboards and the pre 2016 mbp had 1.4 travel...that means we have an relaible keyboard with just 0.2mm difference
So there was no logical aspect for apple keep trying with the butterfly

 

[Abazigal]

This does make me wonder -

In a hypothetical alternate reality where the butterfly keyboard never failed, would pro users have accepted it (however grudgingly), or continued arguing fervently for the return of the original 2015 MBP keyboard?

On one hand, Apple is a toolmaker and there are people who genuinely want great tools from Apple. When the bulk of the work you do is typing, things like the inverted T and a real ESC key are not ancient anchors but useful elements of the tool. If you are making power tools and you remove all the comfort grips because you feel like it looks better without them, you aren’t pushing boundaries. Rather, you are ignoring the people who hold that tool 8 hours a day and don’t want their hands ringing because it looks nice.

In this regard, I do sympathise with all the pro users who have been adversely affected by this entire saga. You wanted a tool that "just worked", and Apple failed you in that regard.

But on the other hand, I will maintain that pro users are absolutely the worst people to listen to for the direction of a product. They will push you up into the high end, ask for things that alienate normal users, and then abandon you just the same when the “good enough for non-Pro” disruptive product becomes better. I look back at the 2016 MBP being released and I suspect what happened was that Apple wanted to bring their pro users over to the iPad (while bringing elements of the iPad to the Mac for those unable / unwilling to make the leap). This was the vision they had to make the Mac more personal, in line with the grand theory of Apple.

What subsequently happened was Apple tried to change too much too soon (change all ports to USB-C, replace function keys with Touch Bar, introduce butterfly keyboard, remove MagSafe), which for pro users was simply too much too soon. As fate would have it, the keyboard proved faulty, which helped anchor criticism and make a case for a return to the original keyboard, but still,

I do wonder...

 

[Whackman]

Good. I wish they'd listen more.

 

[Falhófnir]

This does make me wonder -

In a hypothetical alternate reality where the butterfly keyboard never failed, would pro users have accepted it (however grudgingly), or continued arguing fervently for the return of the original 2015 MBP keyboard?

On one hand, Apple is a toolmaker and there are people who genuinely want great tools from Apple. When the bulk of the work you do is typing, things like the inverted T and a real ESC key are not ancient anchors but useful elements of the tool. If you are making power tools and you remove all the comfort grips because you feel like it looks better without them, you aren’t pushing boundaries. Rather, you are ignoring the people who hold that tool 8 hours a day and don’t want their hands ringing because it looks nice.

In this regard, I do sympathise with all the pro users who have been adversely affected by this entire saga. You wanted a tool that "just worked", and Apple failed you in that regard.

But on the other hand, I will maintain that pro users are absolutely the worst people to listen to for the direction of a product. They will push you up into the high end, ask for things that alienate normal users, and then abandon you just the same when the “good enough for non-Pro” disruptive product becomes better. I look back at the 2016 MBP being released and I suspect what happened was that Apple wanted to bring their pro users over to the iPad (while bringing elements of the iPad to the Mac for those unable / unwilling to make the leap). This was the vision they had to make the Mac more personal, in line with the grand theory of Apple.

What subsequently happened was Apple tried to change too much too soon (change all ports to USB-C, replace function keys with Touch Bar, introduce butterfly keyboard, remove MagSafe), which for pro users was simply too much too soon. As fate would have it, the keyboard proved faulty, which helped anchor criticism and make a case for a return to the original keyboard, but still,

I do wonder...

Honestly I think it's simpler than all that. They tried to move the 2016 on in the same way they had with previous redesigns: thinner, lighter, faster, jettisoning unnecessary IO in the process. They ended up getting tripped up by basic physics, they made tolerances too small to stand up to robust real-world use; they didn't know at the time Intel were going to come out with hotter, not the promised cooler running CPUs so of course couldn't take that into account; the IO they jettisoned was still at peak popularity, not well over the hill like disk drives, floppy disks etc, and in the case of SD there was no exact equivalent to replace it at all. In the end it was (I expect for a multitude of reasons) a misjudged release which ended up being bad controversial, not the good controversial that previous iterations managed.

 

[maflynn]

They didn't create a new-new keyboard, they just fell back on the old one mechanically.

Admission of guilt? It seems a bit melodramatic. It's more likely the butterfly keyboards is costing the company money and sales. I have no problem that they went back to the old keyboard. If something isn't broken, why fix it? Apple tried and in this case made matters worse.

I don't think it's about assigning guilt as much people wanting a laptop with a solid keyboard.

The touchbar is still there (which I personally feel is useless), and the T2 chip which can be limiting and a cause of instability but the bottom line is the company listened to its customers and changed directions.

 

[Porco]

the bottom line is the company listened to its customers and changed directions.

Yeah... this.

One can state that basic idea as ‘they admit their guilt! Shame! Shame!’ or ‘they made a financial calculation and found it more profitable to go back to the scissor mechanism and physical esc key. But I think “the company listened to its customers and changed directions” is a reasonable summation that encompasses both the more emotional and the coldly logical assessments of the situation.

 

[nStyle]

I like the butterfly kb. Shame it had problems but whatevs. Less of an admission of guilt as an admission that the laptop is a mature product and doesn’t/didn’t need much tweaking. We’re ready for a new form factor that doesn’t exist. iPad isn’t going to cut it for most even though it’s a much better experience in some ways (it’s just not nearly as capable at the end of the day).

From a design perspective, the 16” is a step backwards IMO. The slightly larger screen means a heavier and larger laptop for very minimal benefit. I would have expected to see better design improvements in three years. The retina screen was a radical improvement in 2012 but since then the screen has only gotten marginally better and everything else is meh. The touchbar is still a disaster IMO. Physical keys are so much better for common tasks like brightness and volume. Getting rid of the touchbar would be a true admission of guilt but I don’t think it’s ever going to happen.

I bought a recent MBP but honestly I’m starting to regret it. A faster Mac really doesn’t translate into faster everyday tasks like I thought it would and I absolutely hate the touchbar since it adds basically nothing. It’s just an alternative but hugely unnecessary way of completing tasks that could otherwise be done much more simply.

Trouble is I don’t want Windows but I’m still not completely happy with what Apple is offering.

 

[chrfr]

Since the new one has 1mm travel vs 0.8mm butterfly keys...when the imacs keyboards and the pre 2016 mbp had 1.4 travel...that means we have an relaible keyboard with just 0.2mm difference

The butterfly keys were around 0.5mm travel, so the new one has twice the travel of the old.

 

[Rogifan]

I think you are overdramatising this.

Every design process goes through iterative improvements. You have an idea that you think is good, you implement it, you find out there were issues you eater didn't think about (or you didn't think they would be this bad), you adjust, you go on.

From this perspective, sure, you can interpret this as an "admission of guilt". For me this is just normal work process. Most importantly, this shows that a) Apple is listening to user feedback and b) Apple's newly reconstituted design team keeps a more pragmatic approach than one lead by Jony Ive (I adore the guy, but I also agree that lately his vision might have been clouding some of more practical aspects of the game).

My take from all this is that Apple is far from dead innovation-wise (as claimed by many), and that the are willing and able(!!) to adapt and change their priorities in an agile way. I think this is great for both Appel customers and Apple shareholders. At the same time, it shows that they are still following their own unique vision while striving to make things better, instead of falling to the easy lure of mediocrity currently found in PC industry. In the nutshell: Apple is still Apple, alive and kicking, and they are still doing what Apple does best.

Yet there doesn’t seem to be hard evidence that this is a different design direction because of Ive leaving. No way this computer gets designed and engineered in like 6 months. Plus Ive is still at Apple according its leadership page on apple.com. What if the MacBook Air keeps the butterfly design and it’s just the pros that get the magic keyboard? It’s possible.

Admission of guilt? It seems a bit melodramatic. It's more likely the butterfly keyboards is costing the company money and sales. I have no problem that they went back to the old keyboard. If something isn't broken, why fix it? Apple tried and in this case made matters worse.

I don't think it's about assigning guilt as much people wanting a laptop with a solid keyboard.

The touchbar is still there (which I personally feel is useless), and the T2 chip which can be limiting and a cause of instability but the bottom line is the company listened to its customers and changed directions.

And yet there’s no Mag Safe, USB-A, SD Card, HDMI or Ethernet. It sure seems like this was all about the keyboard and battery.

 

[leman]

.. What was all the hooplah that the last run of butterfly keyboard macs finally solved the problem? Was that a lie

I don't think it was a lie. The reports of keyboard failure are much rarer for the 2019 models.

The bigger issue is PR. The butterfly keyboard has such a bad reputation, that nothing can save it. Even if Apple would manage to make it more reliable than scissor version, people would still attribute every key failure they see (scissor keys fail too) to bad design. So they did a sensible thing, even though I really like the butterfly.
[automerge]1574173463[/automerge]

Yet there doesn’t seem to be hard evidence that this is a different design direction because of Ive leaving. No way this computer gets designed and engineered in like 6 months. Plus Ive is still at Apple according its leadership page on apple.com. What if the MacBook Air keeps the butterfly design and it’s just the pros that get the magic keyboard? It’s possible.

Well, there were reports about this "pro workflow design group" or whatever it was called (can't find the reference again) that was in charge of the new Mac Pro. Apparently the same people designed the new MBP. And they are not led by Ive based on what I've read.

 

[Rogifan]

Well, there were reports about this "pro workflow design group" or whatever it was called (can't find the reference again) that was in charge of the new Mac Pro. Apparently the same people designed the new MBP. And they are not led by Ive based on what I've read.

From all I have read about Apple over the years it doesn’t seem like Ive ever lead teams like that or really was the lead on any product. Maybe the initial development of Apple Watch, though that may have been Jeff Williams too.

 

[theluggage]

I really think they had something on their hands, if only they could improve that one nitpick that they are built to fail, and add some frigging travel.

Bear in mind that they had three attempts to fix the butterfly keyboard: the 2016 MBP was already "version 2" with "improved" feel over the first iteration in the 12" MacBook. Then they added the rubber gasket. Then they changed the plastic. After a point, it starts to look like there is something fundamentally wrong with the design. Plus, there comes a point where an idea is simply a PR disaster and even fixing it won't be enough to restore customer confidence.

I suspect that the elephant in the room was that the butterfly keyboard was supposed to be cheaper to produce - and possibly some of the "fixes" nixed that.

In a hypothetical alternate reality where the butterfly keyboard never failed, would pro users have accepted it (however grudgingly), or continued arguing fervently for the return of the original 2015 MBP keyboard?

I think it was the "double whammy" of reliability concerns combined with the love/hate aspect of such an extreme design that killed it. Personally, I thought the 12" MacBook was horrible when I tried it, but that the second version would (if reliable) at least be liveable-with.

However, the real problem is that the previous generation 'chiclet' keyboard was an exceptional design that pretty much everybody either loved or at least accepted as a reasonable compromise vs. a chunky laptop with full-travel keys. There's a reason why most of the laptop industry pretty much copied it. If you're only going to offer one design of laptop keyboard across the range, you can't afford for it to be made of Marmite. Dumping the original keyboard for the sake of shaving a couple of millimetres off an already-slim laptop was a huge mistake.

We'll see whether they retain the butterfly KB in the MacBook Air (where compromising feel for size makes more sense).

The reports of keyboard failure are much rarer for the 2019 models.

Well, the mid-2019 models have only been around for 6 months - so there are fewer of them out there, they haven't seen as much wear and the extended guarantee is firmly in place (so there's less incentive to rant). Also, people who have bought the mid-2019 knowing about the keyboard might be raging fanboyz who'd defend Apple even if Tim Cook personally dumped a ton of manure on their lawn and celebrate the privilege of sending their $3000 laptops in for a 'free' new top case every few months be inherently inclined to a slightly more tolerant attitude towards Apple.

Plus, the development of the 16" probably started before the mid-2019 had had any chance to prove themselves and, as I said above, by that stage the butterfly design's reputation was beyond repair.

 

[raqball]

Admission of guilt? It seems a bit melodramatic. It's more likely the butterfly keyboards is costing the company money and sales. I have no problem that they went back to the old keyboard. If something isn't broken, why fix it? Apple tried and in this case made matters worse.

I don't think it's about assigning guilt as much people wanting a laptop with a solid keyboard.

The touchbar is still there (which I personally feel is useless), and the T2 chip which can be limiting and a cause of instability but the bottom line is the company listened to its customers and changed directions.

Fully agree with everything stated, well said!

KB is night and day better... ESC key is back! I couldn't care less about the TB and still view it as a gimmick..

Apple hit the 16" out of the park for the most part. Larger battery, thinner and lighter be damned!

 

[maflynn]

Apple hit the 16" out of the park for the most part. Larger battery, thinner and lighter be damned!

No question, its a great laptop. I'm happy with my Thinkpad but I can see myself getting one of these if the need arises.