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The Finder: An Idea
- Thread starter elppa
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i have to say i'm with the people who want to organize their files in a hierarchical file system. and i think it's important to do it that way because it allows you and others to find stuff by simply looking in the relevant folder. if something belongs to more than one folder use an alias.
i'm always shocked when people even in high tech industry don't get the concept of a file structure. they sometimes have no idea on what hard drive their files are. it all goes somehow into "documents and settings/program files"
as if it would make sense to put the files for a design project into the separate local excel and word folder when you need them on the server.
palm used a system like the one you seem to favor on their handhelds. and it was one of the reasons why the lost market share. people want to organize their stuff in a file system. and they want to be able to access/copy/delete the files without opening a separate program for each file type just to deal with it.
but i agree that there are specialized file types that need a different file sytem like mp3's. but even there the underlying system should be hierarchical. just read the many posts complaining about iphotos file management. apple realized that mistake and allows you to organize your photos now. and coverflow might look nice but if you look for a recorded memo from a business meeting or an audiobook or a cover version of "Child in Time" from a 1985 indie group then i think you don't want to scroll through 2500 covers. especially since most of them have no album art.
i think the concept of finder supported by spotlight, itunes, iphoto is fine. it just has some missing/annoying features.
my two cents
i'm always shocked when people even in high tech industry don't get the concept of a file structure. they sometimes have no idea on what hard drive their files are. it all goes somehow into "documents and settings/program files"
as if it would make sense to put the files for a design project into the separate local excel and word folder when you need them on the server.palm used a system like the one you seem to favor on their handhelds. and it was one of the reasons why the lost market share. people want to organize their stuff in a file system. and they want to be able to access/copy/delete the files without opening a separate program for each file type just to deal with it.
but i agree that there are specialized file types that need a different file sytem like mp3's. but even there the underlying system should be hierarchical. just read the many posts complaining about iphotos file management. apple realized that mistake and allows you to organize your photos now. and coverflow might look nice but if you look for a recorded memo from a business meeting or an audiobook or a cover version of "Child in Time" from a 1985 indie group then i think you don't want to scroll through 2500 covers. especially since most of them have no album art.
i think the concept of finder supported by spotlight, itunes, iphoto is fine. it just has some missing/annoying features.
my two cents
I think that andiwm2003 makes a good point.
We should keep a file hierarchy system in place, (perhaps clean it up a bit, some developers and Apple developers (like the iPhoto people) need to learn this) but supplement it with the relational database model. Things like ID3 tags, metadata comments can be used by relational technologies like Spotlight and metadata-aware filesystems to make life easier for when you don't feel like digging through multiple levels of directories.
say, you want to play one song by an artist:
/Users/someguy/Music/artists/foo/bar.mp3 would be what the filesystem sees, but iTunes has a relational database that flattens out that entire path into a playlist that can be sorted as easily as by artist and song name. You just went from 7 (I count the root as a single level, and bar.mp3 as a level) nested directories to a simple artist and song name relationship.
We should keep a file hierarchy system in place, (perhaps clean it up a bit, some developers and Apple developers (like the iPhoto people) need to learn this) but supplement it with the relational database model. Things like ID3 tags, metadata comments can be used by relational technologies like Spotlight and metadata-aware filesystems to make life easier for when you don't feel like digging through multiple levels of directories.
say, you want to play one song by an artist:
/Users/someguy/Music/artists/foo/bar.mp3 would be what the filesystem sees, but iTunes has a relational database that flattens out that entire path into a playlist that can be sorted as easily as by artist and song name. You just went from 7 (I count the root as a single level, and bar.mp3 as a level) nested directories to a simple artist and song name relationship.
I understand the need for file heirarchy... I just think it needs to be refined, and I don't think people need to actually *see* the file heirarchy if they would prefer not to.
For example - file types I don't understand/can't use... In my idea Finder I wouldn't have to see these files cluttering up the display when all I'm trying to see is the images and documents.
Keep the heirarchy, keep the finder as is overall - just refine it.
-Make tagging/metadata more prominent and simpler to encourage more people to explore the power of Spotlight.
-Stick a tag-cloud, or at least a list of tags somewhere.
-Let us quickly view untagged files.
-Allow auto-tagging with certain criteria.
-Give is better Smart Folders... iTunes playlists are more how I'd like ot see smart folders - I want to be able to organise files for projects without having to duplicate files... I understand you could probably do this already with symbolic links, but it should be simple and obvious.
-Let files sort themselves out. When I download an application, it should go where it's supposed to - the Applications folder. This is not *just* lazy - it is also fantastic for anyone who's a stickler for organisation. iTunes willl move music and video to the right place - why can't the Finder?
-We shouldn't need to open every bloody file just to look at it. This is a big reason i use Pathfinder - It loads pictures and text files from within Pathfinder, so if I only want to read a file rather than edit it, then i don't waste system resources and time opening text-edit or word.
For example - file types I don't understand/can't use... In my idea Finder I wouldn't have to see these files cluttering up the display when all I'm trying to see is the images and documents.
Keep the heirarchy, keep the finder as is overall - just refine it.
-Make tagging/metadata more prominent and simpler to encourage more people to explore the power of Spotlight.
-Stick a tag-cloud, or at least a list of tags somewhere.
-Let us quickly view untagged files.
-Allow auto-tagging with certain criteria.
-Give is better Smart Folders... iTunes playlists are more how I'd like ot see smart folders - I want to be able to organise files for projects without having to duplicate files... I understand you could probably do this already with symbolic links, but it should be simple and obvious.
-Let files sort themselves out. When I download an application, it should go where it's supposed to - the Applications folder. This is not *just* lazy - it is also fantastic for anyone who's a stickler for organisation. iTunes willl move music and video to the right place - why can't the Finder?
-We shouldn't need to open every bloody file just to look at it. This is a big reason i use Pathfinder - It loads pictures and text files from within Pathfinder, so if I only want to read a file rather than edit it, then i don't waste system resources and time opening text-edit or word.
You're wrong, it has got nothing to do with Windows habits.
I usually work in applications like Flash, when I select an object and press DELETE it deletes it from the stage, if I want to recover it it's still in the Library, however, pressing delete removes the object from where it was when I pressed the key. In fact, theres more examples in OSX's Apps where the DELETE key actually deletes then the other way around.
When I press a key that says "Delete" I'm expecting it to Delete.
It's like the Eject key having to be pressed with the Cmd on to actually eject the disc, makes no sense imo.
We all have our gripes with OSX, or does someone actually think that OSX is a 100% perfect system?
The fact that I have a gripe with a keypress action on OSX does not make me a Windows advocate or even former user.
I appreciate this debate and am sure it will lead to some great new implications for our computing habits.
Close, but not there yet. I have the right to have my preferences and personal opinions right?
I guess I'm just used to working more inside applications than working with the Finder itself, still, I'm perfectly used to "CMD + Backspace" to delete something on OSX, but the fact that I'm used to something doesn't make it intuitive for everyone else, and in this case, the Delete key has a different function in the OS and Applications, it's confusing.
these are just snips from this thread. i'm not upset or angry, these are my opinions, and i recognise that not everyone will agree with me. and that's cool everyone is not like me. (i don't want them to be, either)
) this setup would mean i'd have to either create these folders again myself or put these files somewhere else. no thanks.
although, while i'm on this, it would be great if iphoto had grouped albums/projects/nested albums/whatever you want to call it. a way of grouping albums together.
secondly, take a look around the web (there wasn't a wikipedia article on it, but if you do a little digging, you're sure to find a screenshot or something) for a leopard feature called quicklook. this will make your life a whole lot easier (after october)
i think the finder could do with a bit of tweaking, but i don't think it's broken. i'd say it's about 80% there.
everyone is not like me. (i don't want them to be, either)you can sort of already do this, check out the view options (in the finder 'view' menu). also, if you find stuff about it, look around the web for quicklook, coming in leopard.
Windows already has this, and i'm glad that the mac doesn't. It's most commonly called "DLL Hell". i don't want every application, file and document in a huge folder. yeugh. yes, spotlight is great, because if i need to open something quickly, i can, _really_ quickly, bit i like that i can put things wherever i want to. breaking things down into categories makes sense to the human brain, huge long lists of things makes sense to a computer. dunno about you, but i'm not a computer
doesn't this sorta already happen? you have the devices list, and burn folders (and, incidentally, disk utility)
and this _does_ already happen. i don't really want to have to open an application to move a different application or, for that matter, remove an application. this is how windows works, and it drives me absolutely _nuts_. system preferences is as close to the back end system as most people (admittedly, not necessarily most of the people reading this, though) should get to the system files.
yes, but remember that when you open the ipod interface on iPhone, it's not itunes, and looking at photos is not iPhoto. i have other things in my photos, videos, ... in fact, all of the finder created media folders, besides what ilife has put there. files that i don't want in itunes or iphoto, that i don't want to open these apps to get to. de-modularising (is that even a word?
) this setup would mean i'd have to either create these folders again myself or put these files somewhere else. no thanks.i currently have 15 items on my desktop, and 9 of them are critical (and always there). if i didn't have the desktop, my job would be a lot harder. if you didn't have a physical surface to put your computer on in the real world, and instead had to go and get it out of a box to use it, and _had_ to put it back when you were done, you'd go bananas. i know that the desktop (in mac os x) is not critical for everyone, but it's certainly very handy. besides, 'desktop' is a much better name than 'tmp'.
i agree that if you delete a file in the finder, it should disappear from the downloads list (or at least indicate that it's been removed from the finder, perhaps with a 'refresh' or 'download again' button), but not the other way around. dragging things into the trash is a very understandable metaphor, and deleting things is not something that anyone should be able to do accidentally. anyone whose hard drive has failed can tell you this.
out of the 12 items in the apple menu, i don't use 3 of them on a regular basis. (one of which is, by the way, "about this mac"). in particular, "recent items" is fantastic. and you can customise what in the recent items list, which is also helpful.
why? i don't touch the files once the photos are in iPhoto. i don't need to. that's like opening the folders in your itunes library to listen to an individual song. it just doesn't make any sense to me. if you're looking for a specific photo, you can drag it straight out of iphoto and into whatever you need it in. even using exposé while dragging, if need be.
although, while i'm on this, it would be great if iphoto had grouped albums/projects/nested albums/whatever you want to call it. a way of grouping albums together.
yes! i agree.
firstly, why are you not using adobe bridge already?
secondly, take a look around the web (there wasn't a wikipedia article on it, but if you do a little digging, you're sure to find a screenshot or something) for a leopard feature called quicklook. this will make your life a whole lot easier (after october)
what's wrong with dragging them? folders open as you drag over them. you can even activate exposé while dragging!
because it's a lot harder to accidentally press [cmd+delete] and then have to go into the trash and recover a file because you slipped or because your cat walked on the keyboard. i use [cmd+delete] a fair bit.
yes. i'll also add to this request (wish?) a way of cancelling frontrow from streaming a file. (if you go into a shared library and the network drops out or something, it takes _ages_ to recover and say that the library is gone. and you can't back out through the menus or cancel or anything. grr)
click on the finder icon in the dock. go on, try it. _now_!
i think the finder could do with a bit of tweaking, but i don't think it's broken. i'd say it's about 80% there.
It's not just AFP that does this. SMB and Bonjour suffer from this problem too, at least in my experience.
I don't know about you guys, but I love the fusion look that Mac OS X Mail has, and wish the Finder as well as other apps adopted it. I think it has the best features of the plain Aqua look and the Brushed Metal look, without being obnoxious to look at or annoying to use.
I also think that the Finder needs a few tweaks. One of the things that most irritates me about it is the .DS_Store files it leaves everywhere. Why not store the view information in a SQLite database instead? After all, the needed support is built into Mac OS X, and would eliminate the clutter problem as well as the annoying need to delete the .DS_Store files when stuff is moved from Mac to Windows.
I completely agree, the desktop / folder/file structure is great for computing because of the metaphorical connection to the real world.
My desktop is also a temporary repository for projects that I'm working on and shortcuts to commonly used programs/folders. It says "here's what I'm doing 'right now'" when I'm done I'll file it away for later.
Taking this one step further, I also liked the idea of Piles that was to be included in Panther (stacks of documents rather than putting them into folders).
Not having spent enough time actually on OS X, I can't really say, though, what needs to be done to actually change the finder.
Hey! That's cheating!
you can't use Leopard as an example because it hasn't been released yet. And Adobe Bridge can't preview certain EPS's.. it's a shame
nor ABR files...what's wrong with dragging them? folders open as you drag over them. you can even activate exposé while dragging!
Yep, I used to say the same thing but sometimes it would just come in handy. When? it's easy to explain and you can try to replicate. Let's say you're moving files between 3 folders, you want to close one but before you close it you want to keep it's items "cutted" and into the clipboard so you can paste them later on. Understand my problem ? I usually use spring loaded folders by dragging but sometimes I need the CMD + X shortcut.
Yes, finally a logical argument!! I can understand that point and yes, it can work as a safety. However, I don't have any pets, and even If I did, it's not like Mr.Whiskers is going to hold the mouse button and click "Empty Trash"
ahahah, but it'd fun if he did, with your "Work" folder, eheh!My bad, I meant with the keyboard only
And two keys which can be reached with one hand only preferably.Yes, finally a logical argument!! I can understand that point and yes, it can work as a safety. However, I don't have any pets, and even If I did, it's not like Mr.Whiskers is going to hold the mouse button and click "Empty Trash"
I gave most people credit by assuming they already knew this was the reason. It's like safety locks on aspirin - it's really easy to open, but not so easy that you'll accidentally do it.
Awesome ideas elppa. With Spotlight, iLife, modular apps, and the Dock, Finder's days are numbered. It should be killed altogether or somehow ingeniously merged with iLife/iWork. Besides obsessive compulsive computer people, no one (maybe 5 in 100) cares about folder organization or hierarchy. Just look at the way most people use their computers, especially the Windows people and their Program Files folder, it's disgustingly disorganized. But does anyone care? No. People just want the apps to open when they click their icons, music to play in their media players, etc.
When I plug in a digital camera, iPhoto should open and let me import/export photos. Why would I want to go searching within the camera's SD card for absurdly named files (e.g. img-12312.jpg) and then drag these files to different folders? It's always such a pain in the ass to do all the dragging and dropping, renaming, folder view sorting, etc.
The only place where file browsing is really useful is for Word and PDF document organization. I have hundreds of documents on my computer and can't really imagine sorting or archiving them without traditional hierarchical trees.
Future OS's should be like the iPhone, simple and intuitive. Maybe have a very slim and efficient file browser for the Pro people to use, but nothing as bloated and useless as Explorer or Finder.
When I plug in a digital camera, iPhoto should open and let me import/export photos. Why would I want to go searching within the camera's SD card for absurdly named files (e.g. img-12312.jpg) and then drag these files to different folders? It's always such a pain in the ass to do all the dragging and dropping, renaming, folder view sorting, etc.
The only place where file browsing is really useful is for Word and PDF document organization. I have hundreds of documents on my computer and can't really imagine sorting or archiving them without traditional hierarchical trees.
Future OS's should be like the iPhone, simple and intuitive. Maybe have a very slim and efficient file browser for the Pro people to use, but nothing as bloated and useless as Explorer or Finder.
How did you miss this entire thread and all the various explanations and examples given as to why the above statement is totally wrong?
Honestly, I didn't read most of the thread. It got a little too complicated for me
. I am just venting my personal dissatisfaction with the Finder.