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Final Cut Pro does not leverage the GPU for video editing. Color and Motion do, but that's graphically intense work. I'd have to read up on what RED is doing, but RED is far from your typical camera and the footage it generates is well above the norm. A MBP with the 9400M is more than sufficient to deal with any consumer or prosumer DV or HDV video, and that's what the machines are being sold for. Not to edit RED footage.

I don't disagree, GPU usage is limited based off what software is designed to use(like Ion in netbook wasn't the end all solution to Flash issues as Adobe kept flash CPU based for a while)..I think that person who I quoted was merely underscore the point video edit CAN use the GPU if software allows.
 
A 218% difference in GFLOPS is not a small amount.

Right, except you're forgetting that this bandwithd is NOT the direct correlation to performance differences under Snow Leopard. Do you seriously believe that to be so? That's like saying because I have a 2.66ghz C2D, it's 1.33x faster than a C2D 2.0ghz .. well that isn't true, it's probably 1.1-1.2x faster, at the maximum.



Video encoding would see massive speed improvements. That's not "strictly visual".

And so where is your proof? And proof that the 9400M performs horribly compared to the 9600GT? the 9600GT owns the 9400M in tasks such as gaming, but do NOT expect the same performance boosts under OpenCL. That said, innocent until proven guilty. No proof or numbers by apple, it's not true until we see concrete evidence.


Please don't give us this BS. You can claim anything on these forums. For all we know, you haven't even touched a MBP (not a MPB!).

Where am I BSing? I HAVE touched numerous MBPs. You're statement is equivalent to me saying you have no MBP, and have never touched one, therefore your argument is null. Running out of actual arguments, are we?

I still find it pathetic you need to make your own purchase seem justified and superior by calling the new "lower end" MBP's, "not a MBP!". Grow Up.

Classic your 13" macbook pro only has a 1.5 GBp/s Sata II. LOL. Are you sure that it deserves the pro name?

A) S-ATA 300mb/s has been the standard for a while now.
B) Benchmarks show that S-ATA 150mb/s can still match the speed of all mechanical hard disks (which the majority of consumers still use!)

That said, I love how you still revert to your immature gimmicks of determining what is to be called a "Pro" and what isn't.

Good point there…

i really SINCERELY doubt that the 13" MBP has only 1.5 sata connection, since the 13" MB unibody firstgen 2.0 has 3gigabit sata, and i just checked, it happens that one is in the house. :)

and i said in another thread i will say it again, the suffix pro doesnt make a computer pro if it runs safari and mail..
the users makes a computer pro.

damn, im on the no man's land;D everybody hates me...

+1, as already said, S-ATA 300mb/s has been standard for a while. I, myself, do not know for sure which specification the unibody MB/MBP's use, but I would place my money on S-ATA 300mb/s.

From Apple: http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/#opencl

"Now a new technology in Mac OS X Snow Leopard called OpenCL takes the power of graphics processors and makes it available for general-purpose computing. No longer will graphics processors be limited to graphics-intensive applications such as games and 3D modeling. Instead, once developers begin to use OpenCL in their applications, you’ll experience greatly improved speed in a wide spectrum of applications."

That's great and all, but that doesn't give us any numbers or benchmarks. For all we know, it will only allow 10% of the GPU's total processing power to be used in normal CPU processing. I'm not saying my statement is true, but for the time being, it's equally valid considering there are no hard numbers out there.
 
And you think people buying RED are editing their footage on a baseline MacBook Pro...? Seriously? What an absurd argument.

I'll wager <0.01% of MBP users are using their machines to edit RED footage, Yup - better make sure every single model has a dedicated GPU, just in case someone wants to edit their RED footage. :rolleyes:

count me in that .01% sir... I don't if i can't help it tho...
 
Final Cut Pro does not leverage the GPU for video editing. Color and Motion do, but that's graphically intense work. I'd have to read up on what RED is doing, but RED is far from your typical camera and the footage it generates is well above the norm. A MBP with the 9400M is more than sufficient to deal with any consumer or prosumer DV or HDV video, and that's what the machines are being sold for. Not to edit RED footage.

By the end of the year, RED will have $3,000 3K camera. Yeah, less than six months away. Now guess how likley RED footage is going to land on Macbook "Pros" now? Besides, my point was a proof of concept. The videocard is a MUST now. If there was no need, like the title of this thread implies, then apple wouldn't even bother adding an integrated one.
 
Plus I read that the MBP automatically uses the 9600 in Bootcamp and causes major heat issues. One of the reasons I don't want the 9600+9400. I only want the 9400.

This is very true, at least on the prior uni MBP. This new refurb 2.53 runs 69-75 C in bootcamp, causes the fans to kick in at full speed playing any game. I had hoped this new system would allow me to ditch my Sony Vaio and handle work and play on one system, but I am concerned about the life of this MBP if games cook the thing.

Cheers,
 
And you think people buying RED are editing their footage on a baseline MacBook Pro...? Seriously? What an absurd argument.

I'll wager <0.01% of MBP users are using their machines to edit RED footage, Yup - better make sure every single model has a dedicated GPU, just in case someone wants to edit their RED footage. :rolleyes:

Your argument is absurd. Ever heard of renting cameras? What about film students who may have access to/rent a Red One but can't afford a Mac Pro?
 
That's great and all, but that doesn't give us any numbers or benchmarks. For all we know, it will only allow 10% of the GPU's total processing power to be used in normal CPU processing. I'm not saying my statement is true, but for the time being, it's equally valid considering there are no hard numbers out there.
Wouldn't 10% of a 9600M still be greater than 10% of a 9400M?
 
Sorry to butt in guys. But I am considering a new unibody 13" MBP. All I do is download music, surf the web, and rarely burn a dvd. Is it worth it to upgrade the processor to the 2.53? Either model I get is going to get 4GB of RAM and a 7200RPM 500GB HDD. I am just wondering if it would benefit me in snow leopard to get the faster processor. I don't game or work at all in windows either.
 
Sorry to butt in guys. But I am considering a new unibody 13" MBP. All I do is download music, surf the web, and rarely burn a dvd. Is it worth it to upgrade the processor to the 2.53? Either model I get is going to get 4GB of RAM and a 7200RPM 500GB HDD. I am just wondering if it would benefit me in snow leopard to get the faster processor. I don't game or work at all in windows either.

i think the 2.26 would be perfect for you.
 
Wouldn't 10% of a 9600M still be greater than 10% of a 9400M?

*Sigh*

Yes, obviously. If the 9600GT M is doing 200 Gflops, and the 9400M is doing 100 Gflops, then obviously 20 is more than 10. However, does it still warrant paying $300 more for that extra 10 Gflops? Put it this way, for gaming - if the 9600GT M only put out 110 Gflops, and the 9400M put out 100Gflops - would you pay $300 for that extra little boost? I suppose some rich people that buy Macs for nothing else than to wear it as a badge would, but according to marginal utility and cost, the intelligent consumer shouldn't (and wouldn't!).
 
*Sigh*

Yes, obviously. If the 9600GT M is doing 200 Gflops, and the 9400M is doing 100 Gflops, then obviously 20 is more than 10. However, does it still warrant paying $300 more for that extra 10 Gflops? Put it this way, for gaming - if the 9600GT M only put out 110 Gflops, and the 9400M put out 100Gflops - would you pay $300 for that extra little boost? I suppose some rich people that buy Macs for nothing else than to wear it as a badge would, but according to marginal utility and cost, the intelligent consumer shouldn't (and wouldn't!).

That's why refurbs are the best Mac deal going, especially now. If games are important to you the 9400 is just not going to cut it. The 9600 is significantly better in Bootcamp for Windows games.

I used my 09 MB with Company of Heroes and Titan's Quest Immortal Throne and while playable it was not the best experience. However at the time I bought it ($800 instead of the $999) I was resigned to carrying two laptop when I travelled for business, Mac for work Sony for play. Now I can just use the uni 2.53 MBP. The only thing I lose is the nice 1080p display and Blu-ray on the Sony. However, I decided not carrying 2 laptops was more important.

Cheers,
 
*Sigh*

Yes, obviously. If the 9600GT M is doing 200 Gflops, and the 9400M is doing 100 Gflops, then obviously 20 is more than 10. However, does it still warrant paying $300 more for that extra 10 Gflops? Put it this way, for gaming - if the 9600GT M only put out 110 Gflops, and the 9400M put out 100Gflops - would you pay $300 for that extra little boost? I suppose some rich people that buy Macs for nothing else than to wear it as a badge would, but according to marginal utility and cost, the intelligent consumer shouldn't (and wouldn't!).
But your comparison is wrong. The 9600m GT puts out double the Gflops, not just 10% more or whatever. So you're paying $300 for more than just a 10% increase in power. Now what you're right about is that the extra capability of the 9600m would only matter if you were maxing out the 9400m, which most people do not.
 
Will people PLEASE stop whining about how the new low-end MBP has the 9400M and not the 9600 GT? It kills me to see people claiming that the 9400 M suits their needs for "video editing". Video Cards do NOT have ANY performance impact on ANY processes except those strictly visual. These strictly visually intensive tasks include 3D design/Auto-Cad and heavy duty gaming. A 9600GT will NOT enhance the color quality or performance of working in Photoshop, LogicPro, or any other non-gaming, non-3D program. For almost the majority of you, the 9400M is MORE than enough video processing power.

Another common misconception is that the Memory on a video card has a heavy impact on performance. VRAM (GPU memory) has less than 5% of a change in GPU performance as well. The architecture of the GPU is MUCH more important than the memory strapped onto it. A 9400M with 512mb shared will still be a worse GPU than a 9600GT with 256mb.

That said, can people please stop complaining about the lack of the 9600GT in the lower end MBP's, and more importantly, start understanding what GPU's are actually used for?

Well, video editing is a pretty broad term. Because, a GPU definitely helps when you do video editing such as in Motion 3 or Adobe After Effects. It will render at faster frames instead of lagging out the pipe.
 
This is very true, at least on the prior uni MBP. This new refurb 2.53 runs 69-75 C in bootcamp, causes the fans to kick in at full speed playing any game. I had hoped this new system would allow me to ditch my Sony Vaio and handle work and play on one system, but I am concerned about the life of this MBP if games cook the thing.

Cheers,

Those are nice temperatures. In Mac OS X, I can cook the system up to 100 C doing an encoding in VisualHub. These CPUs can hold up to around 120C before things start going bad.
 
By the end of the year, RED will have $3,000 3K camera. Yeah, less than six months away. Now guess how likley RED footage is going to land on Macbook "Pros" now? Besides, my point was a proof of concept. The videocard is a MUST now. If there was no need, like the title of this thread implies, then apple wouldn't even bother adding an integrated one.

When you say a "$3000 RED", I presume you mean the camera body. That does not include a host of other necessary components you'll need before you can actually shoot anything on it, pushing the price well above $3000. So while it's a whole lot better than the nearly $20k for RED ONE, we're still not talking about a camera that every Tom, Dick, and Harry is going to have.

But no one ever said the GPU didn't matter for some applications. The point is, people that need a good GPU will buy accordingly. That does not mean that every machine needs a great GPU. It's down to choice.

And I've yet to see a link that indicates that editing RED footage requires a good graphics card. The RED website indicates these "minimum specs":

Intel 2.0 dual core or better
ATI graphics card is ideal however I have run tests on NVIDIA in the new MBP and MacPro and it seems to work fine.
OSX 10.4 or newer.
7200 RPM Hard Drive

Nothing to indicate that it needs a really good video card to do anything...

Your argument is absurd. Ever heard of renting cameras? What about film students who may have access to/rent a Red One but can't afford a Mac Pro?

And for some reason these students have access to camera rentals, but not editing suite rentals? And film school I've ever seen rents both cameras and editing systems.

Nice try, though. :rolleyes:
 
When you say a "$3000 RED", I presume you mean the camera body. That does not include a host of other necessary components you'll need before you can actually shoot anything on it, pushing the price well above $3000. So while it's a whole lot better than the nearly $20k for RED ONE, we're still not talking about a camera that every Tom, Dick, and Harry is going to have.

RED 3K "Complete Kit" $3,750 (able to film out of the box, includes lens).
http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/

Besides, this is just the beginning, give it a couple years and sony's handycam will be pushing higher resolutions... Graphics cards are going to be a must. But i suspect within 5 years companies like AMD who own ATI will just start squishing the processor and graphics onto the same chip... maybe...
 
I run my MacBook Pro mostly on the 9400M for the power savings. But when OpenCL rolls around and OpenCL applications frequently enter my workflow I will be glad that the 9600GT is there.

Already on Windows I use a few applications that utilise CUDA (NVIDIA's GPGPU API) such as BOINC and Video Transcoding with TMPGEnc. These are applications that see an amazing boost in performance when a fast GPU is present I'd like that sort of performance boost in OS X on my Notebook when Snow Leopard is released once Applications I use take advantage of the new API.

So again, 9400M is good but a 9600GT is better for the future and not just for Games.
 
Once OpenCL kicks in the 9600GT makes a hell of a difference, its 40-50% faster than the 9400M ...
 
*Sigh*

Yes, obviously. If the 9600GT M is doing 200 Gflops, and the 9400M is doing 100 Gflops, then obviously 20 is more than 10. However, does it still warrant paying $300 more for that extra 10 Gflops? Put it this way, for gaming - if the 9600GT M only put out 110 Gflops, and the 9400M put out 100Gflops - would you pay $300 for that extra little boost? I suppose some rich people that buy Macs for nothing else than to wear it as a badge would, but according to marginal utility and cost, the intelligent consumer shouldn't (and wouldn't!).
Hahahaha you are so funny. :D
you reminded me of this. you are fat tony. :D
Bart: Uh, say, are you guys crooks?
Fat Tony: Bart, is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family?
Bart: No.
Fat Tony: Well, suppose you got a large starving family. Is it wrong to steal a truckload of bread to feed them?
Bart: Uh uh.
Fat Tony: And, what if your family don't like bread? They like... cigarettes?
Bart: I guess that's okay.
Fat Tony: Now, what if instead of giving them away, you sold them at a price that was practically giving them away. Would that be a crime, Bart?
Bart: Hell, no.
your arguments are just as good. :D
 
Despite the general direction this thread is taking, the OP is more or less right in what he's trying to say. The #1 reason that stronger video cards are marketed for is gaming. There's a reason almost all reviews of high-end video cards use gaming benchmarks as a large portion (if not all) of a review. In a very great majority of the time, the reason someone would want to get a high(er)-end video card would be because of gaming-related motivations.

There is this huge (but understandable) misconception amongst many people that the VIDEO card plays a large role in ANYTHING display or video-related. This is really not true. Some examples I noted when going thru this thread include the idea that your computer will somehow be slower if you use a 9400M to output to an external monitor and display at a high resolution.

Things that usually ARE dependent on the GPU:
  • Video DECODING (i.e. playing DVDs, H.264 .mkvs)
  • 3D rendering (e.g. Maya)
  • 2D and 3D games
  • Applications written specifically to take advantage of OpenGL, QuartzExtreme, DirectX,, etc

Things that are commonly misconceived to be GPU-dependent, but are generally not:
  • Photo editing (e.g. Photoshop CS3 and below. CS4 begins to use some GPU acceleration, but it is still mainly CPU-driven.)
  • Video editing

There are an increasing amount of exceptions, and there is definitely a shift (as evidenced by things like OpenCL) in which more apps are GPU-accelerated. The bottom line, though, is that unless an app is specifically written to take advantage of GPUs, it will not benefit from a stronger GPU. In this sense, the OP's claim that "most people don't need the 9600M GT" is right -- if you're unsure of whether or not you need it, ask yourself: are there any apps I use that are specifically written to take advantage of GPU acceleration? If you're not sure, Google it or check the author/company's website.


Also: even for apps that DO benefit from GPU acceleration, in most cases, the amount of marginal benefit a 9600M GT brings over the 9400M is less than the marginal cost (the exceptions being, obviously, games). Things like Expose, transparency, the pretty Dock, etc are GPU-accelerated, but they require a set amount of power, and if that requirement is met, no additional amount of oomph will 'improve' performance (e.g. Youtube videos will not suddenly look better with the 9600M GT. Youtube [or rather, Flash] isn't GPU-accelerated yet anyways -- though you think it would be! It's "coming soon -- http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/02/adobe-nvidia-and-broadcom-bringing-gpu-acceleration-to-flash-at/]).



Additionally, the idea of getting a 9600M GT to "future-proof" is really sort of silly. Besides the fact that future-proofing itself is somewhat futile (see this thread for an interesting thought experiment / discussion -- it's gaming-oriented, but since we're talking video cards here anyways it's relevant enough haha), the 9600M GT is hardly a "strong" video card. It's at best mid-range -- it's on par or less powerful than the Mobility 3650, can't hold a candle to even the Mobility 3850, is last-generation compared to both nVidia's GT xxx line and ATI's Mobility 4xxx line, and is way substandard in comparison to its own desktop counterpart (9600GT). Buying a 9600M GT to "future-proof" is like saying you should get an early 2008 Macbook Pro instead of a white Macbook in order to future-proof.


[Edit: also, sorry, but pet peeve -- it's DISCRETE graphics, not "discreet" -- discreet means low-key / not attention-attracting :p]
 
its not future proofing, its making your computer last that 4 months more of waiting for the next model you wish to buy.. :)
 
I agree with the OP.

I'm not a pro, but photography is my hobby and I use Aperture and Photoshop CS4 extensively to organize and correct my photos. Its mostly done on my iMac, but sometimes I have to use CS4 my MacBook with GMA950 and guess what? I'm yet to notice a difference in performance compared to dedicated Radeon 2400 in the iMac.

And 9400 is faaar better chip than GMA950 and slightly better than Radeon HD2400 and X1600 (used by pre-SR MBPs), so I wouldn't worry about its performance at all :)
 
Please, get your head out of your butt.

The hardware itself never made the divide between MB and MBP. You know what did? The imaginary line in people's minds.

I find it laughable that so many people are angry that there is a MBP offering without a graphics card, when many people with a MBP NEVER USED IT. People that are calling this stupid, are sour towards them no longer having the 'best' MBP, or are downright tools.

I think that you are a fool who is inexperienced and tired of people bragging about their "macbook pro's, what is pro and what is not", I agree that it does not matter what computer you have, a computer is just a tool, not a ego tool, as a real user that has a Powermac G5, an original macbook(integrated graphics) and a uMBP(9400+9600GT) I can tell you that in applications such as Photoshop and especially Final Cut, there is a supreme performance difference between integrated graphics and dedicated gpu, in fact, on my orig, macbook, I cannot handle final cut or photoshop, and it has everything to do with the graphic card. A couple of things
1) If you are looking for a new laptop, do not look for what makes you feel better, look for what will help you the most
2) I hate to break it to people, but there are pro's and con's to the 9600GT, it is not the best gpu out there, but it is a lot better than the 9400m alone, because do not forget, the 9400m is a chipset, meaning that it runs graphics and has to work with the processor interaction as well, versus if you have it working just as the chipset and the 9600 as the graphics, you are going to see a performance difference, is it make or break for a buyer, for me it was, but it also helped that i wanted the 3.06 chip and wanted to maximize the computer, specifically because I use final cut and photoshop on a daily basis, I will still always prefer my powermac, but having a dedicated GPU is more effective for me in everyday use
3) I think this thread is outrageous, your statements are clearly opinions, and offensive(intentionally so I presume) and vanity has no place in a forum, it is clear that you need to get your facts straight before you express your opinions
 
OP thanks!

As a video editor, I want to thank the OP for this thread too.
I wish there was a place on here for "professionals" rather than "my dad is going to buy me a macbook, which one should i get" or "i am going to college this fall and wondering which mbp to get for gaming". The youngsters may want a gpu for heavy gaming, but it is rarely required for photo or video editing.
 
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