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Ctrlos

macrumors 65816
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Sep 19, 2022
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Reading a lot of the threads in this forum it seems that the iPad has a reputation as an accessory when I always saw it as just another rung on the Apple computing ladder. I just wondered if others considered it this way?

Currently if you are looking to buy a portable Apple computer your device is dictated by your budget:

$400 - iPad 9
$500 - iPad 10
$700 - iPad Air

++These 3 devices are in direct competition with cheaper Chrome and Windows devices. I would argue that an iPad at this price point is much more capable than the competition. iPad OS leans in the direction of this level of consumer and Apple will likely have done $billions in market research and ascertained people value stability and ease of use over in-depth computing at this level of the market. Casual users, teenagers and older family members are the obvious markets++

$900 - iPad Pro
$1000 - M1 MBA
$1200 - M2 MBA
$1200 - M2 MBP 13"
$2000 - M2 MBP 14"

The black sheep of the family is the iPad Pro because it is the one iPad in direct competition with a Macbook. The few people I have met who want MacOS on the iPad (which isn't going to happen given their price points) are normally iPad Pro owners who wish they had purchased an M1 MBA.

The outlier is the iPad Mini which is obviously an accessory given its lovely note taking size.
 
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LogicalApex

macrumors 65816
Nov 13, 2015
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This topic has been beat to death on the forums.

No one really knows what Apple is doing with the iPad. I’m not even sure Apple fully knows. Stage Manager is a clear example of what I mean. It is loved by some and hated by many as a confused step in some direction for iPadOS.

Everyone talks about sales of the Macs as being an issue, but I’m not entirely convinced it is a sales thing. I think it just comes down to Apple seeing the Mac and probably macOS as a legacy product in some ways. It is why Stage Manager came to both the iPad and macOS. It is why iPad apps have come to macOS. Why the MacBook now runs Apple ARM chips. Apple is trying to envision computing in a new way with the iPad as a replacement for the MacBook over the longer term.

They still need to give us a way to actually see that future. Right now we just see an iPad that can’t seem to fit into any box correctly unless you are in a few niche areas of computing. We also don’t see how general purpose computing (which is what OSes like macOS are all about) can go away.

My gut is Apple gets pulled longer term into the direction that everyone else has. General purpose computing isn’t dying or dead so you’ll need to turn the tablet into a convergence device. But Apple is slow to give up on its opinions.
 

cwosigns

macrumors 68020
Jul 8, 2008
2,229
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Columbus,OH
Reading a lot of the threads in this forum it seems that the iPad has a reputation as an accessory when I always saw it as just another rung on the Apple computing ladder. I just wondered if others considered it this way?

Currently if you are looking to buy a portable Apple computer your device is dictated by your budget:

$400 - iPad 9
$500 - iPad 10
$700 - iPad Air

++These 3 devices are in direct competition with cheaper Chrome and Windows devices. I would argue that an iPad at this price point is much more capable than the competition. iPad OS leans in the direction of this level of consumer and Apple will likely have done $billions in market research and ascertained people value stability and ease of use over in-depth computing at this level of the market. Casual users, teenagers and older family members are the obvious markets++

$900 - iPad Pro
$1000 - M1 MBA
$1200 - M2 MBA
$1200 - M2 MBP 13"
$2000 - M2 MBP 14"

The black sheep of the family is the iPad Pro because it is the one iPad in direct competition with a Macbook. The few people I have met who want MacOS on the iPad (which isn't going to happen given their price points) are normally iPad Pro owners who wish they had purchased an M1 MBA.

The outlier is the iPad Mini which is obviously an accessory given its lovely note taking size.
I would argue that the iPad Pro should be listed at $1,200 to include the 11” display, 256 GB SSD, wifi, with Magic Keyboard. Without the MKB, the iPad Pro isn’t really competing with the MacBooks.
 

rui no onna

Contributor
Oct 25, 2013
14,788
13,006
Any BT keyboard works - no need to falsely inflate the price to ‘have to’ include the most premium priced one on the market.

And that's assuming one wants something more laptop-like instead of a premium tablet experience.

The only accessory I buy for each of my iPads are cases. I did buy a Logitech Crayon for annotating PDFs but that works on all my iPads so I only need one of those.


Currently if you are looking to buy a portable Apple computer your device is dictated by your budget:

$400 - iPad 9
$500 - iPad 10
$700 - iPad Air

++These 3 devices are in direct competition with cheaper Chrome and Windows devices. I would argue that an iPad at this price point is much more capable than the competition. iPad OS leans in the direction of this level of consumer and Apple will likely have done $billions in market research and ascertained people value stability and ease of use over in-depth computing at this level of the market. Casual users, teenagers and older family members are the obvious markets++

Even $400-500 Windows laptops are capable of running pretty much everything (bar high end gaming) that more expensive Windows laptops can—just slower. Mind, with sales, you can get pretty decent hardware at that price point (hexa-core AMD Ryzen 5 or Intel Core i5 with 16GB RAM).

What the cheaper laptops tend to suffer from are poor washed out displays (250 nits, 45% NTSC) and build quality.

That said, for casual use, we do indeed find iPads a lot more enjoyable. My mom and dad have never owned laptops preferring to use the desktop instead. Couch or bed use, they use iPads.
 

Isengardtom

macrumors 65816
Feb 14, 2009
1,284
2,063
That said, for casual use, we do indeed find iPads a lot more enjoyable. My mom and dad have never owned laptops preferring to use the desktop instead. Couch or bed use, they use iPads.
Same with mine. They both have the (somewhat ancient) iPad 5 and iPad 6 😅

My dad still uses his laptop for some excel tables although for the super basic things he does with that, he might as well do that in Numbers on the iPad (or Excel) + that laptop takes forever to start up, even those old iPads are much quicker to start up and to use
 
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rui no onna

Contributor
Oct 25, 2013
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Same with mine. They both have the (somewhat ancient) iPad 5 and iPad 6 😅

My dad still uses his laptop for some excel tables although for the super basic things he does with that, he might as well do that in Numbers on the iPad (or Excel) + that laptop takes forever to start up, even those old iPads are much quicker to start up and to use

Lol, my mom still has the 2016 iPad Pro 9.7 although she did get both my Air 3 and 2017 12.9 as fairly small upgrades.

The desktop is always on (use it as server, too) so no waiting for bootup. She’ll view Excel and Word files on her iPad but if she needs to edit, it’ll be on the desktop with 27” display.

Gotta say, our old laptops boot up quicker than our old iPads though. I upgraded the HDDs on our Sandy Bridge-Haswell laptops so those work fairly decently. Granted, modern 6+ cores AMD Ryzen or Intel 11th gen tend to leave them in the dust.
 
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bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
1,322
1,784
Canada
This topic has been beat to death on the forums.

No one really knows what Apple is doing with the iPad. I’m not even sure Apple fully knows. Stage Manager is a clear example of what I mean. It is loved by some and hated by many as a confused step in some direction for iPadOS.

Everyone talks about sales of the Macs as being an issue, but I’m not entirely convinced it is a sales thing. I think it just comes down to Apple seeing the Mac and probably macOS as a legacy product in some ways. It is why Stage Manager came to both the iPad and macOS. It is why iPad apps have come to macOS. Why the MacBook now runs Apple ARM chips. Apple is trying to envision computing in a new way with the iPad as a replacement for the MacBook over the longer term.

They still need to give us a way to actually see that future. Right now we just see an iPad that can’t seem to fit into any box correctly unless you are in a few niche areas of computing. We also don’t see how general purpose computing (which is what OSes like macOS are all about) can go away.

My gut is Apple gets pulled longer term into the direction that everyone else has. General purpose computing isn’t dying or dead so you’ll need to turn the tablet into a convergence device. But Apple is slow to give up on its opinions.
I see the iPad as mostly embodying that vision for the future quite well. It is lacking in a few places and performance of somethings is oddly slow (saving a PDF from safari to files takes tens of seconds for no reason I can fathom).
I think stage manager is immature but I can see a path towards a great product on that front too.

No the main problems with iPad OS are:
  • A lack of something like a development sandbox
  • Poor software sales options preventing long term high cost high risk investment in the platform
  • Apple's gatekeeping artificially limiting powerful tools and workflows from running on the platform
Beyond these three things I think the iPad is in a really good place. The AppStore means that developing games for iPad is hard to financially justify as the market rewards free scummy micro-transaction games over paid up front games or games with less scummy micro transactions. The paid software market likewise has trouble with a lack of a well designed paid upgrade path and also suffering from the same prioritization of free with scummy micro-transactions over paid up front or value added subscription based software.

Now while I think these things hold it back from achieving its true potential I think that it has still achieved quite a lot. I'm currently using mine with LiquidText, Word, Pages, and Lucid Charts for work (using Lucid.app website rather than the app because the app is bad). I also use Affinity Designer occasionally in my free time and am currently using my gaming time to play through Divinity Original Sin II with a friend (I've also played Civ VI through to a science victory and a domination victory, and occasionally still dip into League of Legends Wild Rift).
 

bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
1,322
1,784
Canada
Same with mine. They both have the (somewhat ancient) iPad 5 and iPad 6 😅

My dad still uses his laptop for some excel tables although for the super basic things he does with that, he might as well do that in Numbers on the iPad (or Excel) + that laptop takes forever to start up, even those old iPads are much quicker to start up and to use
My mom's MacBook Air died and she got an iPad mini to replace it. She uses it for reading with the Kindle app, she can download her knitting patterns and print them or make changes to them, she message and email (with keyboard case), uses Pages and Numbers for writing letters and financial tracking respectively.

The iPad mini is perfect for her and she has no desire to get a laptop ever again.
 

LogicalApex

macrumors 65816
Nov 13, 2015
1,346
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PA, USA
I see the iPad as mostly embodying that vision for the future quite well. It is lacking in a few places and performance of somethings is oddly slow (saving a PDF from safari to files takes tens of seconds for no reason I can fathom).
I think stage manager is immature but I can see a path towards a great product on that front too.

No the main problems with iPad OS are:
  • A lack of something like a development sandbox
  • Poor software sales options preventing long term high cost high risk investment in the platform
  • Apple's gatekeeping artificially limiting powerful tools and workflows from running on the platform
Beyond these three things I think the iPad is in a really good place. The AppStore means that developing games for iPad is hard to financially justify as the market rewards free scummy micro-transaction games over paid up front games or games with less scummy micro transactions. The paid software market likewise has trouble with a lack of a well designed paid upgrade path and also suffering from the same prioritization of free with scummy micro-transactions over paid up front or value added subscription based software.

Now while I think these things hold it back from achieving its true potential I think that it has still achieved quite a lot. I'm currently using mine with LiquidText, Word, Pages, and Lucid Charts for work (using Lucid.app website rather than the app because the app is bad). I also use Affinity Designer occasionally in my free time and am currently using my gaming time to play through Divinity Original Sin II with a friend (I've also played Civ VI through to a science victory and a domination victory, and occasionally still dip into League of Legends Wild Rift).

The iPad is stuck. I’m hoping Stage Manager is laying the groundwork for helping us see where Apple is going and help To unstick it, but we’ll see. It isn’t horrible, but it seemed like Apple focused energy in it weirdly. Wondering where to place Windows isn’t a major problem for users of windowing systems.

The App Store is a challenge, but so are the limitations Apple place throughout iPadOS. It is why so many just want them to put macOS on it so they don’t have to try to squeeze their product or workflow though a narrow path. For instance, why can’t an iPad Pro running in Stage Manager mode play more than 1 video at a time?

We’ll see if they build on Stage Manager in June or what direction they try to bring iPadOS in next.
 
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rui no onna

Contributor
Oct 25, 2013
14,788
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I see the iPad as mostly embodying that vision for the future quite well. It is lacking in a few places and performance of somethings is oddly slow (saving a PDF from safari to files takes tens of seconds for no reason I can fathom).


What sites is it doing that? Saving PDFs on my iPads are pretty much instantaneous (barring issues with slow internet). I mostly use M1/16GB nowadays but iirc, A12/3GB RAM was fine, too.
 

Retskrad

macrumors regular
Apr 1, 2022
198
657
It’s simple, really. Apple has finite resources. iOS is a gigantic platform and brings in by far the most money. Logically, the most money is given to that division and the best engineers work there. Then, MacOS, WatchOS and iPadOS pick up the bread crumbs. Like Lester said on The Wire, just follow the money.
 

bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
1,322
1,784
Canada
What sites is it doing that? Saving PDFs on my iPads are pretty much instantaneous (barring issues with slow internet). I mostly use M1/16GB nowadays but iirc, A12/3GB RAM was fine, too.

Here's what I just did:
  1. Apple.com
  2. Share -> Options -> PDF
  3. Save to files
  4. Navigate to iCloud Drive -> Downloads -> Save
  5. Saves over about 8 seconds
But when I do:
  1. Apple.com
  2. Share -> Options -> PDF
  3. Markup
It is instantaneous - since it can get me into a PDF for markup instantaneously I feel that it is the save operation that is failing.

A12X iPad Pro 11" 4 GB Memory 256 GB Storage (80 GB Free) iPad OS 16.2
 

papbot

macrumors 68020
May 19, 2015
2,212
1,041
Any BT keyboard works - no need to falsely inflate the price to ‘have to’ include the most premium priced one on the market.
I do have a Magic Keyboard as well as the Smart Keyboard Folio but right now I’m using the onscreen keyboard with the iPad in a Zugu case. Even though I was able to afford those keyboard cases, realistically I can do most, if not all, I need with the onscreen keyboard. Especially now with the M2 iPads that hover feature adds most trackpad-like features when paired with an Apple Pencil. I do believe most could be completely satisfied with the Pencil, or similar device but I’m not certain whether the 3rd party ones would trigger the hover feature, and the ipad with no external keyboard. And when needed, as mentioned, fairly inexpensive Bluetooth ones could be paired.

I do like some of the additional conveniences offered by the keyboard cases I have but if cost were a significant factor I could easily do without them.
 

Ctrlos

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Sep 19, 2022
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2,197
I see the iPad as mostly embodying that vision for the future quite well. It is lacking in a few places and performance of somethings is oddly slow (saving a PDF from safari to files takes tens of seconds for no reason I can fathom).
I think stage manager is immature but I can see a path towards a great product on that front too.

No the main problems with iPad OS are:
  • A lack of something like a development sandbox
  • Poor software sales options preventing long term high cost high risk investment in the platform
  • Apple's gatekeeping artificially limiting powerful tools and workflows from running on the platform
Beyond these three things I think the iPad is in a really good place. The AppStore means that developing games for iPad is hard to financially justify as the market rewards free scummy micro-transaction games over paid up front games or games with less scummy micro transactions. The paid software market likewise has trouble with a lack of a well designed paid upgrade path and also suffering from the same prioritization of free with scummy micro-transactions over paid up front or value added subscription based software.

Now while I think these things hold it back from achieving its true potential I think that it has still achieved quite a lot. I'm currently using mine with LiquidText, Word, Pages, and Lucid Charts for work (using Lucid.app website rather than the app because the app is bad). I also use Affinity Designer occasionally in my free time and am currently using my gaming time to play through Divinity Original Sin II with a friend (I've also played Civ VI through to a science victory and a domination victory, and occasionally still dip into League of Legends Wild Rift).
I actually think iOS is a legitimate gaming platform. There are some top premium pay-once games on the platform and save syncing via iCloud means you can go between iPad and iPhone at will.

The iPad is great for strategy and SRPG games. Disgaea and Final Fantasy Tactics are fabulous.
 

rui no onna

Contributor
Oct 25, 2013
14,788
13,006
Here's what I just did:
  1. Apple.com
  2. Share -> Options -> PDF
  3. Save to files
  4. Navigate to iCloud Drive -> Downloads -> Save
  5. Saves over about 8 seconds
But when I do:
  1. Apple.com
  2. Share -> Options -> PDF
  3. Markup
It is instantaneous - since it can get me into a PDF for markup instantaneously I feel that it is the save operation that is failing.

A12X iPad Pro 11" 4 GB Memory 256 GB Storage (80 GB Free) iPad OS 16.2


Tried the Apple.com "Save to files" just now and the process was instantaneous for me (for both On My iPad and iCloud Drive).

M1 iPad Pro 12.9 1TB 16GB RAM (400GB free) on iPadOS 16.2.
 
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bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
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I actually think iOS is a legitimate gaming platform. There are some top premium pay-once games on the platform and save syncing via iCloud means you can go between iPad and iPhone at will.

The iPad is great for strategy and SRPG games. Disgaea and Final Fantasy Tactics are fabulous.
So my main complaint is not that good games don't exist, but that the incentive structure means that many developers have chosen to make their games worse to increase their profits.
SimCity on iPad uses timers that can be skipped with real money. This consumable real money resource is annoying because I don't want to pay infinite money to skip the wait and I also don't want to wait the multiples of minutes required to build some resources (such as nails). I don't have infinite time to play games so I'm not willing to wait and I feel like I'm being scammed if I pay for the speedup. Cities skylines on the Mac is a game I have put more money into than SimCity on iPad but it was over a very long period of time, just buying a new expansion when one I like came out. I might give it another chance but it just doesn't feel good paying for consumable time.

This is what bothers me so much, it's not a subscription with a fixed price for unlimited play (which I'd actually be more willing to pay for) but instead its a consumable time based resource which is very scummy.

Tried the Apple.com "Save to files" just now and the process was instantaneous for me (for both On My iPad and iCloud Drive).

M1 iPad Pro 12.9 1TB 16GB RAM (400GB free) on iPadOS 16.2.
Mine must be some sort of outlier then. Not sure why it is happening - might have to do another reinstall.
 

Pakaku

macrumors 68040
Aug 29, 2009
3,202
4,606
Any BT keyboard works - no need to falsely inflate the price to ‘have to’ include the most premium priced one on the market.
Might just be me, but I can't imagine myself using a keyboard with an iPad in the usual places I use an iPad or Macbook, without having a physical hinge to hold the iPad up instead of a flimsy case or detached bluetooth keyboard.
 

rui no onna

Contributor
Oct 25, 2013
14,788
13,006
Might just be me, but I can't imagine myself using a keyboard with an iPad in the usual places I use an iPad or Macbook, without having a physical hinge to hold the iPad up instead of a flimsy case or detached bluetooth keyboard.

Personally, the only time I use the iPad with a keyboard is when I'm sitting in front of a desk/table (with the iPad often acting as a 3rd display). I'm quite content with the onscreen keyboard in other scenarios (bed, couch, hospital waiting room, etc).

I find the iPad+MKB to be a subpar experience versus a laptop (limited angles, too top heavy, etc).
 

Ctrlos

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Sep 19, 2022
1,006
2,197
So my main complaint is not that good games don't exist, but that the incentive structure means that many developers have chosen to make their games worse to increase their profits.
SimCity on iPad uses timers that can be skipped with real money. This consumable real money resource is annoying because I don't want to pay infinite money to skip the wait and I also don't want to wait the multiples of minutes required to build some resources (such as nails). I don't have infinite time to play games so I'm not willing to wait and I feel like I'm being scammed if I pay for the speedup. Cities skylines on the Mac is a game I have put more money into than SimCity on iPad but it was over a very long period of time, just buying a new expansion when one I like came out. I might give it another chance but it just doesn't feel good paying for consumable time.

This is what bothers me so much, it's not a subscription with a fixed price for unlimited play (which I'd actually be more willing to pay for) but instead its a consumable time based resource which is very scummy.


Mine must be some sort of outlier then. Not sure why it is happening - might have to do another reinstall.
Don’t get me wrong: I have a massive chip on my shoulder about gameplay timers in F2P titles. Fortnite illustrates how easy it is to build such a title and keep players engaged and eager to spend without resorting to predatory game mechanics.

Premium vs basic currencies are another cancer on mobile gaming but timers or an energy mechanic just serves to paper over gameplay issues with the main title. A good developer making an F2P title doesn’t need to limit time with a paywall because the gameplay hooks should be good enough.

I’m not against F2P games and I do enjoy Fortnite, Pokémon Go, Pocket Camp and Vampire Survivor amongst others. But I’d still rather pay up front than suffer death by a thousand cuts.
 
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Username-already-in-use

macrumors 6502a
May 18, 2021
562
1,037
I play a lot of COD Mobile on iPad. It has a great free to play experience. Elaborate and intricate cosmetic items (for characters and gun variants) are available for real money, but they don’t confer any competitive advantage to players who use them. All guns are available to earn for all who play the game. Also 120fps on iPad Pro is nice.
 

floral

macrumors 65816
Jan 12, 2023
1,011
1,232
Earth
The Mini is hardly an accessory, it usually releases with a pretty powerful spec list and has the perfect size for being an overall life companion, you can take it wherever you go.

I have used my amazing mini 5 as my only device for 4 years (but that's subject to change soon).
 

NastyMatt

macrumors 6502
Jul 7, 2020
497
691
Tried the Apple.com "Save to files" just now and the process was instantaneous for me (for both On My iPad and iCloud Drive).

M1 iPad Pro 12.9 1TB 16GB RAM (400GB free) on iPadOS 16.2.
Same here. Instant save. I am using a 12.9 IPP 4th gen, iPadOS 16.3.
 

bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
1,322
1,784
Canada
Same here. Instant save. I am using a 12.9 IPP 4th gen, iPadOS 16.3.
Must be something wrong with my hardware then (I've reinstalled the OS since I first encountered the issue)... I am probably going to replace it whenever the next 11" comes out so for now I'll just live with the slow save speed and make sure everything I care about is backed up.
 
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