the Leica M8 Digital rangefinder....

Silentwave

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May 26, 2006
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Well, the day has finally come!

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0609/06091412leicam8previewed.asp

DPReview has their preview up- looks like they were able to take the M series form factor and build a ground up digital that I think will give us extraordinary quality and a neat experience!

If I had 6K lying around i'd buy one in an instant.

10.5mp or something like that, 1.33x crop, new lenses came out too- an ultra wide tri-elmar and a new 28mm as well, both work on film M bodies as well.
 

belair

macrumors 6502
Jun 10, 2004
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:eek:

Wow. I would no have thought that Leica would pull this off.
But what do I know, I am not hooked to Leicarumors.com.;)
I personnally love the formfactr of the M bodies.
I own a second hand M6 myself and I have to admit there is no camera on earth that is nicer to carry around.
It is very discreet but yet a very powervull tool.

I want one!:)
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
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freebooter said:
The Leica/Panasonic partnership really casts a shadow of doubt on the output quality. Noise!
However, it's expensive noise. Similarly, the four-thirds camera is twice as expensive ($2000) as the Olympus model but it's just as noisy. It does have a wide mode and a movie mode, though.
 

cube

macrumors P6
May 10, 2004
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freebooter said:
The Leica/Panasonic partnership really casts a shadow of doubt on the output quality. Noise!
The sensor is Kodak. The processing is Jenoptik.
 

SpankyPenzaanz

macrumors 6502a
Sep 4, 2006
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freebooter said:
The Leica/Panasonic partnership really casts a shadow of doubt on the output quality. Noise!
I am worried also because they're using a ccd instead of a cmos
 

Dr.Gargoyle

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Oct 8, 2004
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SpankyPenzaanz said:
I am worried also because they're using a ccd instead of a cmos
Do you know anything about the Kodak sensor?
I doubt that Leica after 10 years work would jeopardize thair name by going for something less than the best on a camera, where the house alone cost $5k. But I might be wrong... wouldnt be the first time
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
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SpankyPenzaanz said:
I am worried also because they're using a ccd instead of a cmos
Considering that Olympus is using a Matsushita (Panasonic) CMOS sensor in the E-330 (and Panasonic's version) that replaced the Kodak CCD and it's just as noisy, I don't think the choice will have much to do with it.

Kodak hasn't had much luck with their sensors, to my knowledge but it's surprising that they couldn't do a lot better in the case of this Leica.
 

Silentwave

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Kodak made the sensor on the Digital Modul R for Leica, and IIRC image quality on it is excellent.

I was working off the prices I had available (USA price wasn't up at the time I posted) but even so I'd need a Leica lens for it :D
 

Dr.Gargoyle

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Oct 8, 2004
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Silentwave said:
Kodak made the sensor on the Digital Modul R for Leica, and IIRC image quality on it is excellent.

I was working off the prices I had available (USA price wasn't up at the time I posted) but even so I'd need a Leica lens for it :D
yeah....I know. The Leica optics is everything but cheap. However, the resale value on all Leica products are amazing.
 

Silentwave

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Dr.Gargoyle said:
yeah....I know. The Leica optics is everything but cheap. However, the resale value on all Leica products are amazing.
True that. Buying new, my ideal Leica kit would be:

M8
(maybe an m6/m7 for film later on)
Noctilux 50/1.0
Summilux 35/1.4, 50/1.4 and 75/1.4
Tri-elmar 16-18-21 f/4 (new)
Elmarit 28mm f/2.8 ASPH (new)
28mm f/2 ASPH
90mm f/4 macro-elmar kit
Summicron 90/2.0
Apo Telyt 135mm
Elmarit M ASPH 24/2.8
Universal Wide Angle Finder (new)
M lens carrier, VF magnifier, and angle finder

Cost at B&H over $36,000! :eek:
 

Dr.Gargoyle

macrumors 65816
Oct 8, 2004
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Silentwave said:
True that. Buying new, my ideal Leica kit would be:

M8
(maybe an m6/m7 for film later on)
Noctilux 50/1.0
Summilux 35/1.4, 50/1.4 and 75/1.4
Tri-elmar 16-18-21 f/4 (new)
Elmarit 28mm f/2.8 ASPH (new)
28mm f/2 ASPH
90mm f/4 macro-elmar kit
Summicron 90/2.0
Apo Telyt 135mm
Elmarit M ASPH 24/2.8
Universal Wide Angle Finder (new)
M lens carrier, VF magnifier, and angle finder

Cost at B&H over $36,000! :eek:
I am drooling... But yeah, the prices are intimidating to put it mildly.
I would start off with a M8 and the new tri-elmar (alt. Summilux 35/1.2)
You get very far on a 35 only. You just have to get closer...
(I think I would pick a MP over a M7/6 for film)
 

milozauckerman

macrumors 6502
Jun 25, 2005
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I've never understood the desire for an MP, it does exactly one thing better than the M7 (working without a battery - not a relevant issue, IMO) without any of the M7's benefits and it does nothing better than the M6.

I keep see-sawing back and forth about selling my M7 to subsidize a Canon 5d (or similar). I'd still have a Bessa R2A for my 35 'lux and 50/2, but on the other hand it's my Leica, for God's sake.
 

Chip NoVaMac

macrumors G3
Dec 25, 2003
8,889
25
Northern Virginia
Silentwave said:
Well, the day has finally come!

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0609/06091412leicam8previewed.asp

DPReview has their preview up- looks like they were able to take the M series form factor and build a ground up digital that I think will give us extraordinary quality and a neat experience!

If I had 6K lying around i'd buy one in an instant.

10.5mp or something like that, 1.33x crop, new lenses came out too- an ultra wide tri-elmar and a new 28mm as well, both work on film M bodies as well.
The body is actually $4750US. Pretty decently priced, if one has M mount lenses already.

freebooter said:
The Leica/Panasonic partnership really casts a shadow of doubt on the output quality. Noise!
This is a ground up design from Leica in Solms, so till we see actual sample shots the Pani/Oly beats should wait.

Dr.Gargoyle said:
Do you know anything about the Kodak sensor?
I doubt that Leica after 10 years work would jeopardize thair name by going for something less than the best on a camera, where the house alone cost $5k. But I might be wrong... wouldnt be the first time
You have it right. The Leica/Kodak sensor is using off-set lenses at the sensor level to address vignetting and sharpness issues that plagues some Canon 5D users so far. Unlike the DMR, Leica seems to have taken the high road on the M8.

The M series has been their bread and butter, so they wanted to be sure to make any digital M class body worthy of the Leica name.

Silentwave said:
True that. Buying new, my ideal Leica kit would be:

M8
(maybe an m6/m7 for film later on)
Noctilux 50/1.0
Summilux 35/1.4, 50/1.4 and 75/1.4
Tri-elmar 16-18-21 f/4 (new)
Elmarit 28mm f/2.8 ASPH (new)
28mm f/2 ASPH
90mm f/4 macro-elmar kit
Summicron 90/2.0
Apo Telyt 135mm
Elmarit M ASPH 24/2.8
Universal Wide Angle Finder (new)
M lens carrier, VF magnifier, and angle finder

Cost at B&H over $36,000! :eek:

Well, we know your love of high-end gear. :D

To set the record straight on your wish list.

Because of the .68 finder you will need the 1.25x eye-peice to use the likes of the 50/1.0, perhaps the 50/1.4 (why you would want both of these raises questions, but you don't like to be challenged about money issues. :) , the 75/1.4, the 90/2.0, and the 135 (no current means to accurately frame with this lens on the M8).

milozauckerman said:
I've never understood the desire for an MP, it does exactly one thing better than the M7 (working without a battery - not a relevant issue, IMO) without any of the M7's benefits and it does nothing better than the M6.

I keep see-sawing back and forth about selling my M7 to subsidize a Canon 5d (or similar). I'd still have a Bessa R2A for my 35 'lux and 50/2, but on the other hand it's my Leica, for God's sake.
Just wait till you want to photograph after an EMP event (http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/emp.htm). :D
 

Silentwave

macrumors 68000
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May 26, 2006
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the 1.25x eyepiece is the VF magnifier mentioned in the last line :)

as for 50/1.4 and 50.1.0, the Noctilux weighs almost twice as much as the Summilux, and is a bit bigger. Honestly though you may be right and for a ligher one I could always opt for the 50/2.0 summicron....

I have to admit I now have my heart set on this once my SLR kit stabilizes in college. I'll probably get one with one or two good lenses and work from there. Ideally I want to end up with the noctilux, new tri-elmar, and the summiluxes mentioned by the time I finish undergrad.
 

Dr.Gargoyle

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Oct 8, 2004
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milozauckerman said:
I've never understood the desire for an MP, it does exactly one thing better than the M7 (working without a battery - not a relevant issue, IMO) without any of the M7's benefits and it does nothing better than the M6.
Try shooting at below -30 C or in extremely humid areas.
 

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
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SpankyPenzaanz said:
I am worried also because they're using a ccd instead of a cmos
CCD photo quality is very good, though. Potentially, it's better than MOS technology. It arguably still is, which is why companies are still mainly working on CCD tech rather than CMOS. Companies aren't stupid, especially ones that have been in the photography world for so long.

MOS isn't hard to understand (I use them all the time for medical research), it's cheaper to manufacture, and the data processes quicker from a CMOS than from a CCD, making it very good for things like sports photography and such. However, there are many downsides, and the only upside is lower amounts of noise and lower in-camera processing requirements (ie: faster performance).

So anyway, don't worry about the choice of using a CCD over CMOS. I'm sure there's a very good reason why companies still choose the more expensive, slower CCD to put in their cameras. ;)
 

Chip NoVaMac

macrumors G3
Dec 25, 2003
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Dr.Gargoyle said:
Try shooting at below -30 C or in extremely humid areas.
Extremes are a good example. Just like my EMP post. Sometimes batteries just give out at the worst time. In the film days when this happened we would use the Sunny 16 rule. Or at least keep the shooting data from the film box in our bag, just in case.

For me the M8 is giving me a reason to re-look at the kits I shoot with. Don't get me wrong I love the switch to my Nikon DSLR's. But I have kept much of my Leica M gear so far. Just for when I feel like shooting film. :)

But as I have mentioned, the aspect of being able to go out with a film and digital body with a great series of lenses (I am looking at the T-E Wide, the T-E, and the likes of the 35/2.0 or perhaps a 28/2.0 and a 90/2.8 as being a perfect storm of a kit).

Even with my remaining lenses for the Leica (15, 21, 25, 35, 50, 90, and 135 - with the latest model of the T-E is up on consignment) I would be well equipped for the new M8. And with my M6TTL, the wide end would be well covered.
 

Chip NoVaMac

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Dec 25, 2003
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Northern Virginia
Abstract said:
CCD photo quality is very good, though. Potentially, it's better than MOS technology. It arguably still is, which is why companies are still mainly working on CCD tech rather than CMOS. Companies aren't stupid, especially ones that have been in the photography world for so long. \
IMO what you have said works well with what Leica has said about their choice of going with the CCD. This despite the success that Canon has had with CMOS sensors.

Then we get into expectations of photographers. IMO the digital age has given hopes of MF quality from a 24x36mm or less sensor. So much talk about "noise", but much of that is based on looking at 200% blow ups on a screen.Not seeing how that might look in a 13x19 inch print. This is before even using the likes of Noise Ninja.
 

GoCubsGo

macrumors Nehalem
Feb 19, 2005
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Dr.Gargoyle said:
Leica M8 is a true Leica. There is no Panasonic version of it.
Thank you! I have a Leica film camera...well had. It was the best and only range finder I would use.
 

Chip NoVaMac

macrumors G3
Dec 25, 2003
8,889
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Northern Virginia
jessica. said:
Thank you! I have a Leica film camera...well had. It was the best and only range finder I would use.
Add to the M8 debate, Leica held out till the very end to make sure that us RF users had a camera that met our demands.

Unless I am missing something, Canon should have done the off-set lenses on the sensor that Leica has done. Just this week I had a customer with a 5D and and the 16-35L lens complaining about vignetting and soft corners.
 

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
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Chip NoVaMac said:
IMO what you have said works well with what Leica has said about their choice of going with the CCD. This despite the success that Canon has had with CMOS sensors.
Yeah, like I mentioned.......fast processing in-camera, and low noise. But I'm pretty sure that despite Canon's success, CCD is still the choice of photography companies because it is better, even today. Noise is really the only issue with using CCDs. I mean, of course companies would switch entirely to CMOS if it was capable of better quality than CCD. It's cheaper to make --- now imagine if it also resulted in better quality photos. :eek: Of course companies would jump ship and switch entirely to CMOS!! Instead, they put even more money into CCD research.

Even Sony, who uses an APS-sizsed CMOS chip in in their DSC-R1 model, chose to use a CCD for their first DSLR. :) They have CMOS chips sitting on the shelf as well.

Maybe lower noise is just a matter of developing a cooling plate or something for CCDs to sit on, but like you said, people are complaining about noise, which isn't really an issue unless they use what is equivalent to a magnifying glass and looking at the image on a per pixel basis.

That's also before noise reduction technology, which can make any Panasonic camera/DSLR have noise levels that compare with photos taken with a CMOS sensor.

I'm NOT saying that CMOS is bad. It's not bad at all. Right now, it's about on par with CCD. However, all these people who say that CMOS is the way to go, and any company still developing CCD technology is going to fall behind is wrong. Canon is the only one going completely with CMOS, while others simply haven't chosen to yet.