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I see some people on here absolutely love the magic mouse. I’m in the camp of not liking it because it feels too thin under my hand. I like to rest my palm on the mouse, and I feel like I have to hover uncomfortably over the magic mouse. I’ll admit I didn’t give it much of a chance though.
I thought I would quite like it as well. The touch surface is decent, but that's about the extent of its merits. However, one finds oneself darting all over the desk just to get the cursor to where it needs to be. Its low profile is rather uncomfortable for the wrist, to say the least. Moreover, the sloping bottom is rather perilous, to say the least.

You really need to create a cover to widen it, and add a cushion at the back to support the palm for a more ergonomic experience.
 
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Bear in mind the base iMac has only 2 USB ports, whereas the mini has 5. The processor in the base iMac has 8-core CPU and 8-core GPU, whereas the mini has 10 cores for CPU and 10 GPU. Therefore, a better comparison would be the base mini against 2nd tier iMac.

The base iMac can be used only as a typewriter or email checking machine at hotels. Or at schools, libraries, etc. For most any other task it would be inconvenient.

Having said that, I do not think iMacs as general are useless. If all of your devices are wireless, your desk is mostly declutered, which is beautiful. However, it comes at a price. You should also factor in the upgrade of the storage - 256GB won’t cut it - to at least 1GB, which adds another €1000. An external 1GB SSD costs 95€ but adds clutter.

So, basically, it’s a €2200 iMac against a €800 mini. Guess what, I’d rather live with the clutter.
A bit of a contradiction there. If the iMac is mainly being used as you describe it - which makes somewhat sense - why the nagging on memory storage and bothering about 2 cores less?

You kind of underlining the point with these machines, and basically confirm they are indeed very fine. For their intended purpose. And that is kind of essential when evaluating hardware/software. Intended purpose. They only become awkward when someone tries to massage them into user cases where they obviously becomes far from ideal.
 
A bit of a contradiction there. If the iMac is mainly being used as you describe it - which makes somewhat sense - why the nagging on memory storage and bothering about 2 cores less?

You kind of underlining the point with these machines, and basically confirm they are indeed very fine. For their intended purpose. And that is kind of essential when evaluating hardware/software. Intended purpose. They only become awkward when someone tries to massage them into user cases where they obviously becomes far from ideal.
The iMac features a glossy screen, which is a significant drawback if you're looking to protect your eyes in the long run.
 
The problem with the whole "that old thing is old, so it should go away" argument is that "it is old" it not, in itself, a good reason to get rid of older technologies. Unless there is some real advantage to moving to the shiny new thing, there is really no reason to do so. The question that has to be answered is "what does USB-C do that USB-A doesn't?"

When it comes to keyboards, mice, stream decks, joysticks, printers, scanners, and most other lower-bandwidth accessories, the answer is "not very much at all". We mostly moved on from Serial, Parallel, SCSI, PS/2, and ADB because those other connections had serious limitations that USB addressed (ability to hot-swap, expand connections via hubs, better speed, and proper plug-and-play support). For all intents and purposes, there is no serious limitation to USB-A (or USB 2/3) that USB-C addresses for these peripherals. USB-C's only real advantage (outside of its reversible connector) is really only realized by high-power or high-bandwidth peripherals.

Heck, I'll ask the question directly, though it would be the same question to have to answer for all of us "old fogies" who refuse to give up our USB-A peripherals: Suppose that I do give up my mechanical keyboard, wireless mouse (with its USB-A RF dongle), my webcam, my Stream Deck, my Tascam audio interface, and my label printer, all of which currently work very well, and replace them with USB-C devices, what actual benefit will I get?
Nobody asks you to upgrade any of your gear, and if you want to, you can easily find solutions caretaking that.

The world however, is moving forward. And when purchasing new pherperials, it makes sense to pick something more future proof. Albeit your ability to find solutions caretaking the past, that shouldn`t be an hindrance for anyone else to move forward. With the retrospect in focus, nothing moves forward. No reason for Apple to go M - Intel will do (what does energy consumption and battery time matter anyway).

Besides the slooow implementation of USB C, one of the big drags with old macs is e.g. Thunderbolt II which was ahead of it`s time. I decided not to waste cash on future proofing that old connector by getting more cables, the money was obviously better spent on updated hardware.

As far as I`m concerned, I have been preparing for USB C only interfaces for quite some time. Thus my monitor which I use with HDMI, is USB C too. Didn`t care for Thunderbolt, as that is not important for my setup or a future one.

I don`t have to replace anything to go USB C, but anything in need of replacement will be USB C, and has been for some time. I haven`t purchase a single piece of equipment just to get it USB C ready. No significant extra costs.

But purchasing NEW USB A only pherperials now? That is really not a great strategy....
 
The iMac features a glossy screen, which is a significant drawback if you're looking to protect your eyes in the long run.
Surely, you have some Master/Ph.d papers from somewhere and links to them confirming that as a fact.
 
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You’ve obviously never used one for any length of time.

Or any 5120x2880 display for that matter (including the old 27” iMacs and LG Ultrafine 5K).

There are exactly 0 comparable 4K displays. And 0 that will deliver as polished an experience on MacOS which is really best on 2x integer scaling.

I literally had one for work for about a year. There is nothing special about the Studio Display itself other than its 5K resolution, relatively high brightness for SDR content and Apple design.

If it had a 4K resolution, its pricing would be a joke. That's why I said it's overpriced compared to an equivalent spec 4K display. By equivalent spec I mean one that would have similar inputs (or more like lack of them!), brightness, color accuracy, refresh rate and so on.

That integer scaling experience is entirely an issue with the way MacOS handles display scaling.

Windows generally handles scaling better regardless of the display resolution, because its scaling system is more advanced than Apple's "render at 2x target res" system. Windows' system does have the disadvantage of requiring per-app support for HiDPI scaling, but for most apps this is no longer an issue.

Any "polished experience" is an indictment of Apple's poor handling of external displays in favor of making their own work better than others. We shouldn't have ******** like "my base/Pro M2/M3 Mac cannot offer the same scaling levels as my M2/M3 Max", or various behavioral differences between Displayport (over TB/USB-C) vs the native HDMI port, or how most USB-C to HDMI 2.1 adapters/cables don't work right on MacOS but work without issue on Windows.
 
I held off until Apple finally made 16GB of RAM the standard for their "base" Macs. I won't be purchasing another MacBook until they opt for matte screens. The glossy display of the MacBook Pro was the cause of my eye strain. With the new M4 Mac mini in hand and a plethora of portable matte displays available, who really needs MacBooks anymore?!

And with the speed at which Apple is releasing new M chips almost every year, the next "base" Mac could very well come with 24GB or even 32GB of RAM. And at the same "base" price, no less.
 
I won't be purchasing another MacBook until they opt for matte screens.
The new M4 MacBook Pros now have matte screens available as an option. I, too, hate glossy screens and if I were buying a new laptop I would be getting that MBP if for no other reason than the nano matte coating.
 
I agree that 500$-600$ was a bit hyperbole but it's definitely overpriced at 1.779 EUR base) here in Belgium with only 60 Hz, extremely mediocre webcam (I would even call it bad) and no adjustable stand without paying extra for nano texture and adjustable stand (2.489 EUR)


Personally think the iMac is beter value thank the Mac Mini - unless you buy a monitor to use for the next decade.
* design is subjective but I like it a lot. Clean, 1 cable
* good screen, webcam,
* I always choose the trackpad as I think MacOS actually works well with trackpads (Windows less so for me). I like the keyboard


24" screen is big enough and if I need multi tasking I prefer two 24" screens (I have a samsung one from work for working from home) then 1 27" screen.

I agree with this to an extent, but the monitor will be outdated at some point. 60 hZ feels already outdated for that price point
People have adapted to laptops and laptop screens. And MANY are very very good in handling multitasking by developing great skills.

People being used to and good at that, will picture few advantages in jacking up screen sizes. In fact, knowing that the kids will be working on laptops all through their education and moving on to working with whatever, I`d argue getting them a normal size (27+ monitor) will be a disadvantage to them as they will work way more efficient if they stick to a form factor they will have to use anyway. Getting accustomed to a normal 27+ screen size will hurt their workflow. ONE disadvantage with the last decade and a half laptops is the wide and low screen format IF working with documents. Like kids still do at school.

Regardless, they have to adapt to a form factor which has a lot of chosen disadvantages for the benefit of portability.

A 24" monitor just provides the same disadvantage in a larger format. It has no multitasking benefits of significance, and doubling up 24"s in a dual setup is just a mishmash. The only benefit is if running 2 systems (which can be done on a single wider monitor) or to save a buck.

Moving on from the skills acquired to compensate for a small screen, there are significant advantages to decent monitor size, both for creative work with graphics, video, 3D, photo and what not, and also for "multitasking" office work. High ppi never hurts, apart from the wallet, bandwidth and demands on the graphics system. The reason for high PPI monitors being generally great is that they are positioned in the high end segment, which means that the quality extends into all the other components of the monitor as well. Higher bandwidth, better electronics, better panel tech beyond pixel density and so forth. When/if they become common, one will most likely experience a wider variation in panel/electronics which means that people will eventually be able to buy crap high ppi monitors. They will get the budget/profit treatment as every upfront technology will endure. The 27 form factor has gone through that, as have 32 and 34w.

A 27" is the minimum for 3 normally sized document pages beside each other. E.g. a Pdf, a office document and a web page, but that is really cramped. A 34wide does that job better (after all it is just a widened 27" caretaking that specifically), and vertically it matches a A4 sized page with normal fonts ++ very well. A 32 is better suited for CAD/Graphics, and ppi is of greater significance. A 32 has a lot of surplus space vertically for document/office work. It makes workspace management (like Mosaic) way more relevant.


If seriously exploiting the limits of multitasking, the 40w format is good for both graphics and office, but LG/Lenovo/HP/Dell haven`t put great resources into the panels, those leaves something to be desired. Got little to do with PPI, it`s more about choices like type of panel, backlighting and so on. These monitors needs a workspace management system to be exploited fully, Dell provides one, I believe Microsoft`s system went out of "beta" 2 or 3 years ago, can`t remember exactly, but it worked fine for me like Dell`s and Mosaic.

One caveat with these large monitors, because they ARE large, is the variation in distance between eyes and center/edge of the monitor, the eyes constantly/frequently having to adjust to the difference in distance rather up close. Further, for 32" and 40" you`ll start moving your head, eyes and neck in a different manner than with smaller monitors which you can position more or less fixed to a comfortable usage. The brands have experimented a bit with that, and come up with curved monitors with various radius choices. That seems to have settled into sensible "standards".

Whatever people chooses for a solution and if that is right or not, varies with preferences and what the monitors actually are used for. What`s right for me is certainly not ideal for a different user and vice versa.

What IS pretty clear is that a 24" is not anywhere near ideal for taking advantage of multitasking to the fullest extent. It IS however fine if adapted to a laptop style workflow. Where it brings nothing additional beyond a tad more real estate.
 
I thought I would quite like it as well. The touch surface is decent, but that's about the extent of its merits. However, one finds oneself darting all over the desk just to get the cursor to where it needs to be. Its low profile is rather uncomfortable for the wrist, to say the least. Moreover, the sloping bottom is rather perilous, to say the least.

You really need to create a cover to widen it, and add a cushion at the back to support the palm for a more ergonomic experience.
I think you can change this on settings. The other issue are less fixable 😂
 
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I held off until Apple finally made 16GB of RAM the standard for their "base" Macs. I won't be purchasing another MacBook until they opt for matte screens. The glossy display of the MacBook Pro was the cause of my eye strain. With the new M4 Mac mini in hand and a plethora of portable matte displays available, who really needs MacBooks anymore?!

And with the speed at which Apple is releasing new M chips almost every year, the next "base" Mac could very well come with 24GB or even 32GB of RAM. And at the same "base" price, no less.
Don't get too optimistic. It took Apple a better part of a decade to go from 8gb to 16gb as base and we have the Ai hype train to thank for that. We'll probably get to Mars first before Apple upgrades from 16gb base spec.
 
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Don't get too optimistic. It took Apple a better part of a decade to go from 8gb to 16gb as base and we have the Ai hype train to thank for that. We'll probably get to Mars first before Apple upgrades from 16gb base spec.
Oh, I don’t fancy the AI, as in Apple Intelligence, but I was after the 16GB RAM. I’ve got more than enough AI already,

Screenshot 2024-11-23 at 17.37.29.jpg

including some from Opera.
 
I won't be purchasing another MacBook until they opt for matte screens. The glossy display of the MacBook Pro was the cause of my eye strain.
I actually prefer the glossy screen of the MacBook. This is one reason why I don’t like mini windows laptops is because they have a matte screen. I can see if it bothers you though and I’m not against having an option but just don’t take away the glossy screen.

With the new M4 Mac mini in hand and a plethora of portable matte displays available, who really needs MacBooks anymore?!
Me! I love my MacBook Air. With the Mac mini or iMac, I have to sit at the desk. I’ve always preferred laptops over desktops. The one exception is gaming because you get more power out of a desktop.

And with the speed at which Apple is releasing new M chips almost every year, the next "base" Mac could very well come with 24GB or even 32GB of RAM. And at the same "base" price, no less.
I wouldn’t expect a base ram upgrade within five years or so because for things like browsing the web and office documents 8 GB is enough. It’s interesting that Apple is promoting the AI but I’m not expecting much
 
Well, you could also argue the magic starts to go away when you start noticing the bad bits of Apple.

  • Magic Mouse is a genuinely ****** mouse.
  • Magic Keyboard is a mediocre laptop style keyboard at an inflated price.
  • Studio Display has the specs of a ~$500-600 4K display, but is priced at 3x that just because it's Apple and 5K res.
  • Requiring a USB hub to add to your Mac Mini because it doesn't come with a single USB-A port adds inconvenience.
  • The base storage of 256 GB means you'll likely run into the need to get an external drive, again adding clutter and inconvenience.
But this is all ignoring some pretty obvious things.
The Mac mini does not come with a magic mouse, so its quality compared to the Mac mini is totally and completely irrelevant. If it came with the Mac mini, maybe you would have an argument, but you can use any mouse you want with the Mac Mini and neither Apple or anyone else is telling you, you have to use the Magic Mouse.
Same goes for the Magic Keyboard.
The 256GB starting is a bit of a letdown yes, but… the Mac Mini can be found for $500 brand new. I feel like there really isn’t much room to complain about the storage here, the computer could have easily started at $700 for a 512, but then you’re paying more money either way. And also, it can be argued that 512 GB will be the new 256 GB by next year, and a terabyte will be the new 512.
Given that you can find 2TB external SSD’s for $100 I feel like this complaint is only relevant in very certain situations.

I will give you that a USB-A port would have been quite useful, but given their limited utility compared to thunderbolt and USB-C it’s completely understandable why there isn’t one.

Basically your complaints are it doesn’t have ports from 20 years ago, and the stuff that doesn’t even come with it isn’t very good. All of these are easily solvable issues.

And it doesn’t change the simple fact that there is absolutely no other $500 computer that even comes close to the performance of this. Not even a custom built PC gets close.
This video illustrates that quite well, but if you don’t want to watch…
The closest off-the-shelf PC he could find was an HP pavilion that was $200 off.
It can fit 30 M4 Mac Minis inside of it, its CPU is twice as slow in both single and multi core benchmarks, and if you need I/O, well it certainly does have that. No thunderbolt but that VGA port might come in handy.
 
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I already have monitor, keyboard, and mouse. So only 500 for me plus M1 256-8 tradein.

The initial investment is high. But for the next mini then the monitor and accessories get reused.

Except I need a hub for the USB A keyboard and mouse. Or A female to C male adapter for the existing hub.

Unless M4 mini requires a special monitor. Mine has HDMI only. No USB C.

Or any 5120x2880 display for that matter (including the old 27” iMacs and LG Ultrafine 5K).

There are exactly 0 comparable 4K displays. And 0 that will deliver as polished an experience on MacOS which is really best on 2x integer scaling.

You can do 2x scaling at many more resolutions than 2560x1440

You can also do it on a 4k display and it looks fine

Text on a 32” 4k is plenty sharp in macos
 
real speakers aren't extra ****

built in speakers certainly are
Totally disagree.
Yes, external speakers sound better.
But for most of what’s being done on a computer, the M1 iMac has some absolutely fantastic built-in speakers and microphones.
Certainly better than most internal speakers on televisions, which is what most people use to watch television.
 
What IS pretty clear is that a 24" is not anywhere near ideal for taking advantage of multitasking to the fullest extent. It IS however fine if adapted to a laptop style workflow. Where it brings nothing additional beyond a tad more real estate.

to each their own I guess
i only need to do the multitasking for work stuff (which is on windows) - mostly excel and other MSFT products.

I prefer to have 2 files in full screen on 2 monitors tha messing around with splits in MacOS.
Only iPadOS handels that decently I think although I’ll admit I haven’t tried the new feature of Seqoia.
 
The problem with the whole "that old thing is old, so it should go away" argument is that "it is old" it not, in itself, a good reason to get rid of older technologies. Unless there is some real advantage to moving to the shiny new thing, there is really no reason to do so. The question that has to be answered is "what does USB-C do that USB-A doesn't?"

When it comes to keyboards, mice, stream decks, joysticks, printers, scanners, and most other lower-bandwidth accessories, the answer is "not very much at all". We mostly moved on from Serial, Parallel, SCSI, PS/2, and ADB because those other connections had serious limitations that USB addressed (ability to hot-swap, expand connections via hubs, better speed, and proper plug-and-play support). For all intents and purposes, there is no serious limitation to USB-A (or USB 2/3) that USB-C addresses for these peripherals. USB-C's only real advantage (outside of its reversible connector) is really only realized by high-power or high-bandwidth peripherals.

Heck, I'll ask the question directly, though it would be the same question to have to answer for all of us "old fogies" who refuse to give up our USB-A peripherals: Suppose that I do give up my mechanical keyboard, wireless mouse (with its USB-A RF dongle), my webcam, my Stream Deck, my Tascam audio interface, and my label printer, all of which currently work very well, and replace them with USB-C devices, what actual benefit will I get?
It’s not necessarily about benefits in terms of speed in most cases, more about USB-C actually being somewhat universal. Especially now that governments are making it a true standard.
Sure, today replacing all of your USB-A peripherals with USB-C ones isn’t really necessary, especially when you could just get an adapter.
But even once you get an adapter, USB-C now let you use those peripherals with many more devices you never could before because they never had a USB-A port.
iPads, MacBooks made in the past nine years.
There’s also just a simple fact that as we become more mobile in our computing, we want our actual ports to get smaller and smaller. And USB-C is significantly smaller than USB-A.
 
By the way, I’ve been tinkering with the "Magic" mouse for a bit, pondering how to make it more comfortable. I’m not one to dismiss something just because it’s poorly designed. I reckon a case around it would help, so it feels more like a proper mouse and less like a toy. I also discovered that it works quite well when the back is raised at about a 20° angle. So, you’d need to create a wedge at the bottom that allows the laser to have access to the table surface. When the "Magic" mouse is bulked up and elevated at the back, your palm would rest nicely on the top curved surface of the mouse.

You could also add a bit of padding on top of the Apple logo. That way, it would provide extra comfort while using the mouse, making it feel even more ergonomic.

However, after discovering how comfortable it is to use a trackball mouse with my wrist resting on some padding, whether I’d go back to the "Magic" mouse is another matter entirely.
 
I held off until Apple finally made 16GB of RAM the standard for their "base" Macs. I won't be purchasing another MacBook until they opt for matte screens. The glossy display of the MacBook Pro was the cause of my eye strain. With the new M4 Mac mini in hand and a plethora of portable matte displays available, who really needs MacBooks anymore?!

And with the speed at which Apple is releasing new M chips almost every year, the next "base" Mac could very well come with 24GB or even 32GB of RAM. And at the same "base" price, no less.

You know you can get a MacBook Pro with a matte display now right?
Totally disagree.
Yes, external speakers sound better.
But for most of what’s being done on a computer, the M1 iMac has some absolutely fantastic built-in speakers and microphones.
Certainly better than most internal speakers on televisions, which is what most people use to watch television.

iMac speakers are not “fantastic” for listening to music

I was actually pretty impressed with my new MacBook pros speakers, for a laptop, but they aren’t great and I wouldn’t use them for music unless I had no other options


Built in tv speakers are also garbage

Anecdotally I can think of very few people who’s homes I’ve been in that use the internal speakers on their tvs
 
The base iMac can be used only as a typewriter or email checking machine at hotels. Or at schools, libraries, etc. For most any other task it would be inconvenient.
This is complete nonsense.
I truly don’t think some people with the MXPro and Max chips realize how good the base chips are, even when some cores are disabled.
Saying the base M4 iMac is only good for word processing and email can only come from someone who has literally never used one before.
There are people using binned M1s for full on music and video production, not even to mention how the MacBook Air is massive for coding despite having options for binned chips and being completely fanless. And those are several years old M1s.
The M4 in terms of performance is literally approaching the M2Max.
The base M4s are serious machines.
 
You know you can get a MacBook Pro with a matte display now right?
Absolutely, but I can’t exactly pop it in my pocket, at least not in my coat pocket. Plus, it doesn’t come with a 27" display. Once you’ve gotten used to a 27" display at a comfortable distance, you really wouldn’t want to go back, would you? It’s hard to beat that kind of screen real estate!

And I’m glad I waited. Now I’ve got a 16GB 'base' mini, which is a design marvel, at least on the inside. It’s impressive how they’ve managed to pack so much power into such a compact form!

The dilemma lies with those who paid extra for 16GB but ended up with a much less powerful M chip.
 
By the way, I’ve been tinkering with the "Magic" mouse for a bit, pondering how to make it more comfortable. I’m not one to dismiss something just because it’s poorly designed. I reckon a case around it would help, so it feels more like a proper mouse and less like a toy. I also discovered that it works quite well when the back is raised at about a 20° angle. So, you’d need to create a wedge at the bottom that allows the laser to have access to the table surface. When the "Magic" mouse is bulked up and elevated at the back, your palm would rest nicely on the top curved surface of the mouse.

You could also add a bit of padding on top of the Apple logo. That way, it would provide extra comfort while using the mouse, making it feel even more ergonomic.

However, after discovering how comfortable it is to use a trackball mouse with my wrist resting on some padding, whether I’d go back to the "Magic" mouse is another matter entirely.

I think you can buy little bumpers to attach to it that make it more comfortable like an actually well designed mouse
 
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