The MacRumors Show: Apple's Big Plan for 5 New Vision Products

[lilkwarrior]

I hate Meta too, but they are not "tainting" anything ... they've created a product to try to address a usage and market.

…Meta explicitly bought Oculus and shut-down studios that wanted to proliferate far higher-end VR gaming on par and even more advanced than traditional AAA gaming.

They instead pivoted to Oculus Rift with games and horsepower worser than traditional home consoles and PCs (Switch/Mobile quality) but still more expensive or marginally cheaper than the former regardless…

In addition to worser resolution than a modern TV consoles are connected to and no HDR for gaming and non-gaming premium content, that’s a hard sell to AAA gamers and most gamers who were interested in VR gaming in the first place.

They want games the quality of Elden Ring and Half-Life: Alyx if they’re gonna invest that much—not games primarily consisting of Fruit Ninja and Beat Saver.

That approach to being mainstream was emulating the success of mobile gaming and the Wii. It has not resonated with most gamers and enthusiasts with them losing tens of billions accordingly.

At the end of the day, Meta have released headsets at unrealistic prices losing tens of billons of dollars that blocked more passionate and relatively priced mainstream headsets to thrive deliberately with such pricing anchored by non-VR businesses generating billions to offset that.

Start-ups and most business entities cannot compete with that.

Such pricing approach was blantant loss leader tactics again supported by non-VR businesses such as their social media and ads businesses they were hoping to recoup with their metaverse aspirations.

Meta were hoping to get away with games at the quality of the Wii or mobile-gaming and traditional budget accessory pricing for a computing platform that fundamentally must be more expensive than traditional computing platforms to be on par with them + maximize its intrinsic advantages over them.

Merely the PPI needed for XR screens to even be on par and better than modern traditional screen baselines and ideals necessitates this.

Vision Pro is realistically priced with this in mind to be comparable with existing prosumer hardware that’s not sold at a loss.

On the other hand, Meta made headsets with very severe compromises not on par with traditional devices that are sold at a loss only possible by revenue by non-spatial-computing businesses such as their ad and social media businesses that start-ups and others cannot compete with.

That’s unrealistic pricing with compromises that minimizes the core value proposition of spatial computing to be on par and better than traditional computing.

They did this to penetrate the headset market for reasons not aligned with what most were excited for headsets being at a quality many don’t consider a good baseline spatial computing experience.

With it also being the average person’s first exposure to spatial computing, the cons I mentioned are very much seen as tarnishing the reputation of headsets among mainstream audiences.

 

[Chiromac81]

That's a pretty ambitious roadmap for people that haven't even entered the AI game or fixed Siri after 10 years

 

[turbineseaplane]

Meta explicitly bought Oculus and shut-down studios that wanted to proliferate far higher-end VR gaming on par and even more advanced than traditional AAA gaming.

Apple engages in the exact same behavior.

Strip the branding off and you'd be hard pressed to tell most of the mega corps apart.

If they want to lose money selling headsets, have at it I guess -- par for the course these days (I don't like it!)

Apple chooses to lose 1 BILLION per year on ATV+ and I don't see folks complaining.

Same for all of Amazons beyond shady practices that got them to exist long enough to actually make money (off AWS side). That's a company that, in a normal world, would have died 20 years ago.

My view is that none of these large companies should be allowed to swallow up competitors or upstarts, nor engage in predatory pricing practices, nor do stock buybacks ... on and on ... yet here we are.

That's the true root of all the issues you're bringing up.

We don't live in a dynamic and competitive business environment in the way we traditional "little people" would think of it.

 

[lilkwarrior]

Apple engages in the exact same behavior.

Strip the branding off and you'd be hard pressed to tell most of the mega corps apart.

If they want to lose money selling headsets, have at it I guess -- par for the course these days (I don't like it!)

Apple chooses to lose 1 BILLION per year on ATV+ and I don't see folks complaining.

Same for all of Amazons beyond shady practices that got them to exist long enough to actually make money (off AWS side). That's a company that, in a normal world, would have died 20 years ago.

My view is that none of these large companies should be allowed to swallow up competitors or upstarts, nor engage in predatory pricing practices, nor do stock buybacks ... on and on ... yet here we are.

That's the true root of all the issues you're bringing up.

We don't live in a dynamic and competitive business environment in the way we traditional "little people" would think of it.

Conversing about the impact of global corporations is a whole other conversation to be had as well as bean-counting loss leader tactics in various markets (and the differences I won't get into such as your Apple TV example) is well outside the scope of the positioning and impact of Quest headsets in the mainstream market.

I merely elaborated on the common sentiment of Meta tarnishing the reputation of mainstream headsets with their execution of their Oculus Rift's headset portfolio that loses tens of billions per year (Meta for example lost 4.2 billion during the first quarter of this year already with majority of those loses from their headset business offset by their promisingly successful smart glasses business).

Spatial computing involving XR tech–whether headsets and glasses–necessitates costs, components, software, and other engineering/UX that must be indefinitely more expensive than what traditional computing hardware cost to be on par and above them in productivity, gaming, and so on.

That's no different than "desktop replacement" laptops being more expensive than most desktops and still not as powerful, but more pronounced.

Meta severely attempts to undermine this pursuing budget/casual gamers and average computer users with games and software well below the quality and depth of traditional AAA games and traditional software on mainstream platforms.

Such compromises don't appeal to traditional AAA gamers productivity computer users, and so on.

Driven by their Metaverse aspirations, Meta solution seems to be with the hypothesis if the Wii/Switch could outsell the combined sales of Xboxes and Playstations, they can get away with this + have the price be traditionally cheap to lower the barriers for masses to buy the headsets at volumes necessary for their metaverse aspirations to proceed.

Meta also had hoped emulating traditional home game consoles recouping losses with subscriptions and post-sales software purchases only to lose tens of billions instead releasing headsets and complimentary software that doesn't appeal to AAA gamers nor high-end computer users who see the Quest headsets and its software options too low-end or with too many compromises–especially to be meaningfully productive and to do normal things they do with computers on par or to a new level with spatial technology.

 

[apple2022]

…Apple didn’t release an iPhone Pro when the iPhone released.

Same thing with the Mac Pro / Mac Studio for Macs, Pro Display XDR for their monitor business, iPad Pro for their tablet business, and so on.

Spatial computing is fundamentally more expensive than traditional computing towards it absolutely making sense to target prosumers first/indefinitely

Spacial computing is a marketing buzz word like liquid glass. It's a screen really close to your face. It will never be widely adopted. We still use books. We still use screens. We're fine with them in the real world. The human psyche hasn't changed and if anything people are more conscious and self-conscious about being filmed. You'll never see vision pros widely used in public. Their lite AR or camera glasses solution will also be rejected. People wearing meta raybans are immediately revolting to 99% of the population as they have a camera strapped to their face and aimed at YOU. You're right that they should target a niche if they are going to continue to try to sell this stuff. There is no getting over the embarrassment hurdle that is VR type stuff.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Spacial computing is a marketing buzz word like liquid glass. It's a screen really close to your face. It will never be widely adopted. We still use books. We still use screens. We're fine with them in the real world. The human psyche hasn't changed and if anything people are more conscious and self-conscious about being filmed. You'll never see vision pros widely used in public. Their lite AR or camera glasses solution will also be rejected. People wearing meta raybans are immediately revolting to 99% of the population as they have a camera strapped to their face and aimed at YOU. You're right that they should target a niche if they are going to continue to try to sell this stuff. There is no getting over the embarrassment hurdle that is VR type stuff.

All of this 👆

People have seen too many sci-fi tech fantasy shows and movies and have convinced themselves "that's next" or "coming soon!" and "for sure the future". A ton of it is just a really bad fit for how humans live and interact with each other and the world around them.

 

[lilkwarrior]

Spacial computing is a marketing buzz word like liquid glass. It's a screen really close to your face. It will never be widely adopted. We still use books. We still use screens. We're fine with them in the real world. The human psyche hasn't changed and if anything people are more conscious and self-conscious about being filmed. You'll never see vision pros widely used in public. Their lite AR or camera glasses solution will also be rejected. People wearing meta raybans are immediately revolting to 99% of the population as they have a camera strapped to their face and aimed at YOU. You're right that they should target a niche if they are going to continue to try to sell this stuff. There is no getting over the embarrassment hurdle that is VR type stuff.

…No it’s not. That’s blantant ignorance of human-computer-interaction compiter science.

It’s an umbrella term for spatial computing hardware: Whether it’s XR headsets, glasses, $2000-$8000 goggles-free monitors, and contacts

 

[lilkwarrior]

All of this 👆

People have seen too many sci-fi tech fantasy shows and movies and have convinced themselves "that's next" or "coming soon!" and "for sure the future". A ton of it is just a really bad fit for how humans live and interact with each other and the world around them.

…You’re doubling down on falsehoods contradictory to human-computer-interaction (HCI) computer science and various other academia disciples.

Even computer science museums would blatantly disagree with you.

Same thing with the top HCI Computer Science, design, tech business, and engineering programs from the likes of MIT, Parsons, Carnegie Mellon, Stanford, Harvard, and USC.

Apple did not invent the term “spatial computing”. They merely brought attention to the term for mainstream audiences.

That’s a term derived from academia from very smart people much more devoted to the progress of computing than you and I.

Spatial computing and Quantum computing are direct further advancements of computing that the average person and elected official do not understand due to rampant tech illiteracy issues globally such as what you’re demonstrating with your claims about spatial computing.

 

[akatsuki]

I just think VR is a niche, near dead market so not sure what they think is going to happen here. Maybe I'll be wrong.

AR is a different story..

But regardless, they can take off the outward facing screens and start stripping weight. The PC side is just a lot more manageable, so I would prefer if they considered this an accessory instead of its own computing platform and stripped out aq ton of weight. Just look at the Bigscreen Beyond 2...

 

[kurtfoster]

What a cool time to be alive!!

 

[lilkwarrior]

I just think VR is a niche, near dead market so not sure what they think is going to happen here. Maybe I'll be wrong.

AR is a different story..

But regardless, they can take off the outward facing screens and start stripping weight. The PC side is just a lot more manageable, so I would prefer if they considered this an accessory instead of its own computing platform and stripped out aq ton of weight. Just look at the Bigscreen Beyond 2...

There’s definitely benefits with a headset being standalone similar to how many quickly see the cons with non-standalone glasses like the XReal Pros I own compared to upcoming standalone XR glasses.

For prosumers and creative professionals the Vision Pro is primarily for, you can multi task with apps spatially + reduce resource consumed on a Mac or Macbook Pro directly during extensive tasks such as rendering.

Even everyday apps like Spotify/Apple Music are convenient to be available in a standalone way.

What you’re suggesting is more appropriate for a lesser, non-pro Vision or a variant that’s just a display.

Standalone headsets also have benefits of no wires in general that many want; to be fair Wifi 6e and especially 7 paved the way for non-standalone headsets to finally rival such headsets with reliable wireless connectivity.

BigScreen Beyond 2 for whatever reason doesn’t do this having no wireless option including its external base stations needed for tracking.

Standalone headsets don’t have that luxury.

The BigScreen Beyond 2 also notably and questionably lacks HDR and premium HDR reducing its usability compared to traditional screens. Such things wouldn’t add significant bulk to the device.

It’s a downgrade from most TVs and monitors not having HDR for most premium content accordingly nonetheless.

It’s overall significantly less useful and less functional but its form factor is indeed appealing in a aspirational way as well as the Meganex Superlight 8K I find more impressive recently adding 10-bit HDR to the spec list since its reveal

 

[tCdemon]

Can't stop focusing on their perfectly manicured eyebrows. 🫣

 

[Johnstrass2]

I use my AVP all the time, but have never used it in public. I mainly use mine to mirror/extend my MBP's screen so I have an ultra wide display for work while traveling. I even use it in office sometimes when I need to work on confidential data, as privacy filters on my widescreen monitor make the text blurry and still don't keep people directly behind me from seeing my screen. I have used it in some coworking spaces and gotten a few odd looks and couple people asking about it. (It's also incredible for watching movies and shows)

I agree. This is not for wearing in public. It looks too wierd. I do wear it on flights, however.