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AshleyPomeroy

macrumors member
Original poster
Dec 27, 2018
91
179
England
I've been reading about Motorola's ill-fated G5 design. I lost touch with Apple in the 1990s so a lot of the nitty-gritty passed me by. I had always assumed that Motorola gave up on chip design after the G4 and Altivec, but it seems that they had a design, or at least a roadmap, for a fifth-generation PowerPC chip.

Historically the PowerPC G5 ended up as an all-IBM thing. Apple appears to have opted for IBM's design around 2002 or so. It's fascinating to go back and read about Motorola's alternative, and also boring because the company never got near to actually building it, so there aren't any prototypes or anything.

The Register has a piece on it dated September 2001:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/09/17/motorola_completes_1_6ghz_powerpc/

They imagined it coming out in February 2002. "The new CPU will be offered at 800MHz, 1GHz, 1.2GHz, 1.4GHz and 1.6GHz, and while the first two are nominally aimed at the embedded space, the others are aimed straight at the desktop [and] we can see Apple using them as to transition over from the top end G4, the PowerPC 7450". The processor they describe was slower than the eventual IBM G5, with a slower front side bus, lower power consumption, but a higher upper memory limit (16gb). The article also predicted that there would be a 64-bit version of OSX 10.2 Jaguar, which didn't happen.

However the Motorola G5 project was mooted as far back as 1999:
https://www.macworld.com/article/1013919/motorola.html

"Waiting in the wings is the PowerPC G5, a 64-bit chip that will also support 32-bit processing to ensure compatibility with current applications. The G5, likely to be available in one to two years at speeds of up to 2GHz, will feature an extensible architecture, making it easier to develop specialized versions of the chip. Motorola says it will also offer a G6 processor, but has given no details on planned features."

It appears that Motorola' semiconductor division hit some kind of fundamental roadblock in 1999, 2000 or so, because the later reports essentially just reiterate the earlier ones. It appears that Motorola ran into trouble even during the G4 era - they got stuck at 500mhz for ages - and never recovered. Nowadays whatever remains of the former semiconductor part of Motorola is part of a Dutch company and the other bits of Motorola are either an empty brand (the mobile phones) or one of those amorphous service companies that does stuff but nobody knows what it is.

Apple's troubles in the pre-iPhone 2000s remind me a bit of Isaac Asimov's Foundation stories - there were several points where Apple could have made a disastrous mistake, but they deftly managed to switch from Motorola to IBM then to Intel with an operating system that worked, and generally got better each time.
 
The G4 was an all Motorola venture, and there were IBM and Motorola versions of the G3. IBM had never designed a CPU alone so I guess Apple wanted to finally give IBM their own chance in the spotlight. They got it with the G5.
 
The G4 was an all Motorola venture, and there were IBM and Motorola versions of the G3.

I wouldn't call it an "all Motorola" venture.

They had some teething pains with yields and ramping up production to meet demand(don't forget about the "speed dump" that happened with first gen G4s), and at one point brought IBM onboard to make some 7400 processors.

Also, lest we not forget that IBM has kept POWER alive and continues developing it, while Freescale is pretty much just riding on demand for their established products and isn't making anything on their own.
 
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I wouldn't call it an "all Motorola" venture.

They had some teething pains with yields and ramping up production to meet demand(don't forget about the "speed dump" that happened with first gen G4s), and at one point brought IBM onboard to make some 7400 processors.

Also, lest we not forget that IBM has kept POWER alive and continues developing it, while Freescale is pretty much just riding on demand for their established products and isn't making anything on their own.

There is even now a "desktop" computer, available for anyone(well, anyone with a boat-load of money) to buy now, with the IBM POWER9 CPU. The Talos II is so nice, but it is also $30,000 for a fully-specced one(making it well outside of my price range)
 
There is even now a "desktop" computer, available for anyone(well, anyone with a boat-load of money) to buy now, with the IBM POWER9 CPU. The Talos II is so nice, but it is also $30,000 for a fully-specced one(making it well outside of my price range)

I've being following the TenFourFox's developer's adventures with his Talos on his dedicated site:

https://www.talospace.com/

I must say, it does appear to be a computer that requires a lot of nursing and developer level skills before you've even got an operating system up and running!
 
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Talos is expensive, but that 30k number has to be seen like clicking every option on an iMacPro or MacPro.

Basic config is somewhere around 2k last time I checked.
 
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The G4 was an all Motorola venture, and there were IBM and Motorola versions of the G3. IBM had never designed a CPU alone so I guess Apple wanted to finally give IBM their own chance in the spotlight. They got it with the G5.

Having worked for IBM in the past, those sweeping generalizations are completely wrong. With a narrow focus on PowerPC chips as used by Apple ... with it being a joint Apple, IBM and Motorola venture co-operation is to be expected.

Also you're confusing who fabbed a CPU with the designer. IBM manufactured chips under contract for many companies in the late 90s, early 00s out of their facility in East Fishkill, NY. Same as TSMC, Global Foundries do today for Apple, Nvidia etc. Arguably IBM were ahead of Intel with technology at the time.
 
I'm really learning a lot here, so thanks. I knew about the alliance, but always assumed the G4 was pretty much all Moto and the G5 was all IBM. I was told by an Apple employee years ago that the G3 was the last chip where IBM and Moto really worked together, so you can see why I believed that to be true.
 
I've being following the TenFourFox's developer's adventures with his Talos on his dedicated site:

https://www.talospace.com/

I must say, it does appear to be a computer that requires a lot of nursing and developer level skills before you've even got an operating system up and running!

Sounds like using a PowerPC Mac in 2019 ;) Before I consider getting one there has to be a Fedora Workstation or Pop!_OS version for POWER. Until then I cannot see these fine computers in the consumer market

Talos is expensive, but that 30k number has to be seen like clicking every option on an iMacPro or MacPro.

Basic config is somewhere around 2k last time I checked.






Talos™ II Entry-Level Developer System
TLSDS3
Talos™ II Entry-Level Developer System including:
  • EATX chassis with 500W ATX power supply
  • A single Talos™ II Lite EATX mainboard
  • One 4-core IBM POWER9 CPU
    • 4 cores per package
    • SMT4 capable
    • POWER IOMMU
    • Hardware virtualization extensions
    • 90W TDP
  • One 3U POWER9 heatsink / fan (HSF) assembly
  • 8GB DDR4 ECC registered memory
  • 2 front panel USB 2.0 ports
  • 128GB internal NVMe storage
  • Recovery DVD
Prize tag: $2,289.99

To me its look is absolutely unappealing, 128GB is too little, as is 8GB memory. USB 2.0, no Firewire, noe DVD drive for the recovery DVD. No consumer grade out of the box operating system. Seems like I have to wait a few more years before I can afford the machine i want and have the OS to use it the way I want
 
Before I consider getting one there has to be a Fedora Workstation or Pop!_OS version for POWER. Until then I cannot see these fine computers in the consumer market
Fedora 28 is available for POWER. And I don't believe these machines will make it to the consumer market.

To me its look is absolutely unappealing, 128GB is too little, as is 8GB memory. USB 2.0, no Firewire, noe DVD drive for the recovery DVD.
I concur with you on the unappealing-looking case, but the machine is aimed at developers who may not care too much about looks. It's the hardware inside that matters. As for FireWire, it is pretty much dead these days unfortunately, and since the system isn't designed to be a Mac in the first place (it's great that OS X can be virtualised on it obviously) the lack of FireWire is not surprising.
 
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To me its look is absolutely unappealing, 128GB is too little, as is 8GB memory. USB 2.0, no Firewire, noe DVD drive for the recovery DVD. No consumer grade out of the box operating system. Seems like I have to wait a few more years before I can afford the machine i want and have the OS to use it the way I want
Nothing of that is important to people who would buy POWER9 hardware these days. It's niche hardware, and I think TALOS II might be the only way for non-businesses to directly buy P9 hardware too, and even if you could buy them from other brands, I doubt it would be cheaper. Plus, you could always just buy the (Lite) Mainboard, CPU(s) and coolers, then assemble it in any regular old EATX compatible PC case, along with RAM, HDDs, etc. of your choosing.

If you want to build an affordable, powerful computer with everything easy to install, build an AMD Ryzen or Intel Core system.
 
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<rant>
I am not a PC builder. I don't like PCs -- I've never liked spinning fans and spinning disks. I don't like Intel. Maybe my Intel Macs just need caps resoldered and CPUs with new heatsync paste and boards cleaned, but is it worth it? I am quite happy to continue using PowerPC Macs for as long as they work, and wow have they ever lasted! The 17 year old iBook G3 500MHz 384 MB RAM can't quite keep up to the raspberry pi, but the raspberry pi and the iBook G3 really are on par for my purposes. The pi uses less power whereas the iBook has WIFI, a screen, keyboard, trackpad, and a DVD player.
I'd like a G6! A PowerBook G6. I'll wait.
</rant>
 
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So grab the netinstall and pull in the Fedora Workstation packages with `dnf install @workstation-product-environment.
Very true, and exactly the opposite of what I meant ;) I know Linus and specifically Fedora do support POWER, I'm a frequent reader of talospace. But what I meant was the green bar saying "Workstation". No command line, no fiddling. That is what there should be! Maybe then power could leave the "developer machine" area and become the "computer to replace your computer", for all those who don't need the new iPad...

EDIT: Unfortunately I do not know Linus, but Linux. Still good, but not that good :D
 
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You'll be waiting a long while for a G6.

Oh, and the GHz war is over. It's about instructions per clock and efficiency now. A 2.3GHz quad-core rMBP from 2013 does over three times the work of a 2.5GHz G5 Quad at similar clock speeds and with the same number of cores.
 
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