The new macbook pro: Unfixable, unhackable, untenable

[JohnDoe98]

The argument that's being made is do we want serviceable/upgradeable devices but it's an extra quarter of an inch thicker or do we want to sacrifice function over form? Do we want thinness over the ability to service/upgrade the device?

I rather Apple chop out what isn't needed. That frees up extra space which they can use to either increase the batteries, function, or decrease the size and weight of the laptop, making it more portable. After all, this isn't a desktop, so arguably the most important function, other than performance, is portability. I don't see upgradability as a function at all. If you need a new laptop a few years down the road, sell your current one and upgrade to a new model.

Apple's products are in such high demand their value hardly depreciates at all. I never have a problem selling my older Apple hardware for very respectable prices. Rather than waste money upgrading individual components, I rather use that money to upgrade the entire machine to a newer model that will help me achieve my work demands even better than the previous model. Yes this might be slightly more expensive than upgrading individual parts, but considering these are premium products intended for "professional" purposes, you'd think these small costs would be easily absorbable.

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ipso facto, you are correcto

Except for the spelling error (now fixed).

 

[pragmatous]

Well 200 dollars plus you have to mail in your laptop to get it replaced. The battery is glued to the case so it would be very difficult for you to do it.

We still don't know the cost of 3rd party SSD's from said vendor.

I don't know I think it's going to be interesting. We're at a pivotal point in technology (light/thin vs serviceable/upgradeable) and only the consumer (us) can determine where it goes.

I wonder if we will see the same thing with desktops? Will we start seeing desktops get thinner?

The biggest problem is what state the battery is in 3 years. This can be replaced by Apple for $200. The next biggest issue is the HD, this will (probably) eventually be user replaceable by a 3rd party vendor. Any other issue is a matter of how the user utilizes his/her computer. If they need the power, they would have upgraded the computer regardless of how it was designed in a few years anyway. If they plan on using it for more than 3 years, there is nothing stopping them from doing so outside of problems that could affect any kind of laptop (motherboard failures).

All Apple is doing now is forcing you to make that choice over commitment now rather than later. If you want to try to ride this out for 3+ years, it's probably in your best interests to max out the ram (unless you're a really casual user, in which case, I'm not sure what you're doing buying this computer...). If not, it would have made little difference how the computer was built because you would have replaced the machine within 3 years anyway.

As long as Apple allows the HD to be user replaceable, and replaces batteries, I don't have a personal issue with this. There are other problems that are more important that need to be addressed in my view.

 

[JohnDoe98]

Well 200 dollars plus you have to mail in your laptop to get it replaced. The battery is glued to the case so it would be very difficult for you to do it.

We still don't know the cost of 3rd party SSD's from said vendor.

I don't know I think it's going to be interesting. We're at a pivotal point in technology (light/thin vs serviceable/upgradeable) and only the consumer (us) can determine where it goes.

I wonder if we will see the same thing with desktops? Will we start seeing desktops get thinner?

Apple has a full-return policy that lasts for 14 days. Their shipping is excellent. I've had my computer sent in for repair, and it took 3 days to have it returned to me. What this means is you can easily buy a new laptop, work on it for three days, then return it when you have your older one repaired.

And before people complain this is abusing the system, Apple's manager is the one that recommended I do this. For business clients, they even have loan machines that they give them. So, the issue of having to send the machine in for service is a non-issue.

 

[pragmatous]

Ahh yes I like your post good points!

I want to reiterate that the macbook pro retina - I've seen this concept in windows PC's now currently. So the argument does not stay with Apple products.

With the exception of the HP Elitebooks a lot of laptops are going integration especially with RAM in order to create a thin and light laptop.

At work we use elitebooks. I myself have an elitebook 8440p. The 8460's are cool. You take the back cover off and you see everything. it's great for us that work in IT because we can call HP and have them overnight the parts. Replace the part and get it up and running next day.

If the RAM is integrated into the board you're looking at 7-10 day down time for the user. Have to pack it up, mail it to the vendor, and there's a 5 day turn around time. If the laptop is out of warranty then what? Looking at further downtime because it takes forever to get approved to get something purchased. It's just a nightmare. IT only has so many spares.

the problem with the service idea is that its misleading.

there are only 2 parts in the macbooks that you can upgrade and service, RAM and the HDD.

The ODD can be swapped out, true. I rarely see people that do it in a enterprise class machine with bay adapters ready at the gate, I cant even imagine how high the adoption rate for this ''feature'' would be in such a consumer class laptop.

Yes apple laptops are all consumer class equipment. They aint professional for a quite while. That doesnt mean that you cant use professionally. Yes we can! I do it.

The paramount idea of a professional pc is that its serviceable by your IT dept or yourself, neither you can really do with apple. They dont ship you the parts, try to order a mobo. They have to be not only serviceable, but easily done.

I can and will say that the back cover is easy enough for you to reach the parts that you can upgrade, I did swap the RAM and the HDD. However when you get to a real pro pc, like the elitebook 8560w, there is a whole different picture.

You can upgrade your gpu, cpu, ram, hdd, swap the ODD for a HDD (earlier you could change it for another battery, in the thinkpads you can still do it), service the LCD panel, change the chassis, change the mobo by actually ordering one and swapping yourself.

and have you tried to dismantle completely a macbook? its not for the faint of heart with so many flimsy cables.

Not to mention that they also come with better gpus, the mbp 17 can be considered a more pro model, with a richer display, the 8760w has a better display, and a much more powerful gpu, that can be upgraded to another much more powerful gpu.

There are other benefits like a tech that will go to your place armed with tools and spare parts and fix the laptop for you.

I clearly understand the outrage of the MBA and the RMBP, however I dont see many people that service a 3+ year old laptop, they buy a new one. It stop making monetary sense after awhile to pay for the repairs, and the subsquent longer downtime since hunting for the parts is also troublesome.

 

[JohnDoe98]

If the RAM is integrated into the board you're looking at 7-10 day down time for the user. Have to pack it up, mail it to the vendor, and there's a 5 day turn around time. If the laptop is out of warranty then what? Looking at further downtime because it takes forever to get approved to get something purchased. It's just a nightmare. IT only has so many spares.

Maybe for other vendors but when my logic board went down, I went straight to the Apple store and gave the genius my laptop. He mailed it to wherever he had to, or did the repair himself. I then bought a new MBP, went home, restored from my TM backup, and resumed working after 2 hours when the restore was complete. 3 days later Apple called me to tell me my computer was fixed. I copied the files I worked on to my TC drive, erased the account on the new MBP, went to the store, returning the new MBP and going home with my old machine. Within 5 minutes I had all the new files added back and everything was back to normal.

Now, if you need to mail it in, they issue you a shipping label and you drop-off the laptop at the UPS or FedEx store, then you can just buy a new one. Once Apple mails back your laptop, you can then return the old one. As for "packing it up", just keep the original box they gave you and the package it came in. It takes 2 minutes to pack it up and throw on new tape with the shipping label you printed.

 

[pragmatous]

Well exceptions are always made for businesses.

A 3 day turn around time is amazing. I've never seen a 3 day turn around time from Dell nor HP. I've seen parts shipped and received same day (for servers) and over night however.

It may be a non-issue but I think how the consumers spend will determine the future of all electronics. You may start seeing thinner & lighter for anything in technology. Or, it could flop. Maybe samsungs series 9 super thin laptop and TV flops. I doubt it though.

Apple has a full-return policy that lasts for 14 days. Their shipping is excellent. I've had my computer sent in for repair, and it took 3 days to have it returned to me. What this means is you can easily buy a new laptop, work on it for three days, then return it when you have your older one repaired.

And before people complain this is abusing the system, Apple's manager is the one that recommended I do this. For business clients, they even have loan machines that they give them. So, the issue of having to send the machine in for service is a non-issue.

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ya there's no "HP Store". And in business computers typically last for like 7 years. What happens if the laptop is out of warranty? It's a good point in IT now instead of having parts shipped over night to replace the RAM we're packing it up and shipping it out. 3 days vs 1 can mean a lot. What if the person travels?

Maybe for other vendors but when my logic board went down, I went straight to the Apple store and gave the genius my laptop. He mailed it to wherever he had to, or did the repair himself. I then bought a new MBP, went home, restored from my TM backup, and resumed working after 2 hours when the restore was complete. 3 days later Apple called me to tell me my computer was fixed. I copied the files I worked on to my TC drive, erased the account on the new MBP, went to the store, returning the new MBP and going home with my old machine. Within 5 minutes I had all the new files added back and everything was back to normal.

Now, if you need to mail it in, they issue you a shipping label and you drop-off the laptop at the UPS or FedEx store, then you can just buy a new one. Once Apple mails back your laptop, you can then return the old one. As for "packing it up", just keep the original box they gave you and the package it came in. It takes 2 minutes to pack it up and throw on new tape with the shipping label you printed.

 

[JohnDoe98]

Well exceptions are always made for businesses.

A 3 day turn around time is amazing. I've never seen a 3 day turn around time from Dell nor HP. I've seen parts shipped and received same day (for servers) and over night however.

It may be a non-issue but I think how the consumers spend will determine the future of all electronics. You may start seeing thinner & lighter for anything in technology. Or, it could flop. Maybe samsungs series 9 super thin laptop and TV flops. I doubt it though.

Yeah, maybe I was just lucky that Apple didn't have a big backlog or something. But I was impressed with the quality of the service. The genius told me that if they had the logic board in stock, he would have fixed it on the spot. So they obviously had to order one or send mine in for repair. But so far as I can see, the service is incredible.

On another occasion when my battery died and I called Apple, they shipped me a new one and I received it the next day. They instructed me to place the defective one in the box they used to send me the new one, and send the old one back to them. I was flabbergasted that they overnighted a new battery to me. I expected 5-7 business days.

Then again, they also overnighted a freaken 100$ iTunes back to school gift card to me. It was prepared for shipping yesterday, and I received it this morning at 10:30 am.

I think they must have some kind of special agreement with FedEx and UPS.

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ya there's no "HP Store". And in business computers typically last for like 7 years. What happens if the laptop is out of warranty? It's a good point in IT now instead of having parts shipped over night to replace the RAM we're packing it up and shipping it out. 3 days vs 1 can mean a lot. What if the person travels?

Good point regarding the traveling scenario. I guess I'd hope to be in the vicinity of an Apple store. Also, I imagine if you are out of warranty, you get the same quality service but you will have to pay for the replacement parts. I doubt they would charge you for the service since they don't charge labor in the Apple store.

But with everything becoming soldered and glued into place, I suspect failure rates will diminish and are probably more likely to happen in the first year of owning the device.

 

[pragmatous]

heh I think you're right. My new MBP shipped from china on Wednesday, reached Japan and then Alaska on Thursday, it departed from Alaska today.

Like that's crazy! I'm suppose to get my laptop on Monday and I had my doubts when I saw it was shipping from China heh.

Yeah, maybe I was just lucky that Apple didn't have a big backlog or something. But I was impressed with the quality of the service. The genius told me that if they had the logic board in stock, he would have fixed it on the spot. So they obviously had to order one or send mine in for repair. But so far as I can see, the service is incredible.

On another occasion when my battery died and I called Apple, they shipped me a new one and I received it the next day. They instructed me to place the defective one in the box they used to send me the new one, and send the old one back to them. I was flabbergasted that they overnighted a new battery to me. I expected 5-7 business days.

Then again, they also overnighted a freaken 100$ iTunes back to school gift card to me. It was prepared for shipping yesterday, and I received it this morning at 10:30 am.

I think they must have some kind of special agreement with FedEx and UPS.

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Good point regarding the traveling scenario. I guess I'd hope to be in the vicinity of an Apple store. Also, I imagine if you are out of warranty, you get the same quality service but you will have to pay for the replacement parts. I doubt they would charge you for the service since they don't charge labor in the Apple store.

But with everything becoming soldered and glued into place, I suspect failure rates will diminish and are probably more likely to happen in the first year of owning the device.

 

[JohnDoe98]

I've never seen a 3 day turn around time from Dell nor HP.

Oh, since I only now remember this, and to be fair to the competition, long ago when I owned a Dell, the USB port died on me. I called them and they sent me a technician who gave me a new machine and took the old one with him. He said the motherboard needed to be replaced and this just made things easier. He exchanged it for the exact same model, so he probably already knew before he was going to look at my machine what was wrong with it.

Even that service impressed me considering that technician showed up two days later. But this was probably back in 2003 or 2004. I have no idea if their customer service has changed since then. In 2007 I converted to Apple when my barely 3 year old Dell died permanently on me and was no longer under warranty. I bought a MBP since I heard they lasted a long time. Though I had a number of issues with this one, Apple always fixed them and it's still running strong after 5 years.

 

[Mr MM]

Ahh yes I like your post good points!

I want to reiterate that the macbook pro retina - I've seen this concept in windows PC's now currently. So the argument does not stay with Apple products.

With the exception of the HP Elitebooks a lot of laptops are going integration especially with RAM in order to create a thin and light laptop.

At work we use elitebooks. I myself have an elitebook 8440p. The 8460's are cool. You take the back cover off and you see everything. it's great for us that work in IT because we can call HP and have them overnight the parts. Replace the part and get it up and running next day.

If the RAM is integrated into the board you're looking at 7-10 day down time for the user. Have to pack it up, mail it to the vendor, and there's a 5 day turn around time. If the laptop is out of warranty then what? Looking at further downtime because it takes forever to get approved to get something purchased. It's just a nightmare. IT only has so many spares.

The elitebook example was just an example of what enterprise class (professional) hardware looks like.

The thing about servicing parts for older laptops is that they are difficult to find and are also expensive, specially if you need to order to the factory. logistics is against old laptops.

As I said I understand the outcry, but I find the direction not troublesome.

have you thought that there are now only 6 parts that need to be stocked?

1) display assembly
2) top case with battery, keyboard, touchpad, speakers and mic
3) mobo
4) bottom cover
5) heatsink assembly
6) SSD

in terms of logistics for repair centers this is god send. simple as that, only 6 parts and you can assemble and entire notebook. This is going to reduce the downtime, not lenghten it, even for older products.

We are entering a path that will lead to simpler designs, by integration, however the cost for the parts is going to be raised.

And the most troublesome thing that i can see aint that you cant upgrade anything, hell im living for over a year with only a 120gb SSD, its that you are limited by the clarevoyance of the OEM to make the available options for the machines that will fill its role for a expected lifetime.

For example the RMBP can be had with 16gb of ram, this for a lot of people is more than enough, though some professional media guys are going to need more ram, and more gpu power as well, not that crappy kepler thing, but a more powerful core.

and this is where the upgrades might be beneficial, but sincerely this is such a limited market. if it werent those workstation would be cheaper, since they would have volume to lower the price.

 

[Eriksrocks]

Laptops will never get smaller, thinner, or lighter unless compromises like these are made.

It is quite obvious that standard SSD's and standard DIMM's would not fit in a machine like this. Until standardized parts and ports (ethernet, SSD's, memory, etc.) get much smaller, Apple will have to make repairability and customizability compromises to continue to push the frontier.

This is the inevitable future of computing. In 20 years, when your computer is as thin as a few pieces of paper and all the circuitry and storage is on the nanometer scale, I can't see how anyone can expect it to be user-repairable. Apple is ahead of it's time, but this is the inevitable conclusion to making things faster, smaller, and lighter.

 

[FastEddiebags]

I think this was a good business decision for apple. They are forcing people to buy their over priced ram. On the other hand, they are providing an exceptional laptop and you will most likely not have to upgrade it for a good 3-4 years.

 

[pragmatous]

Dell's customer service is not as good as it use to be. Neither is HP's. They're looking to save money so they service their "help" to india.

That's another reason why I chose Apple this time around so I can just go to the store and say "my laptop is broken" instead of calling in, waiting on hold, and then get someone you can't understand.

I thought about getting an Asus laptop but with the nightmare I experienced trying to get my custom built PC's motherboard replaced under a recall I elected not to buy an Asus laptop.

Oh, since I only now remember this, and to be fair to the competition, long ago when I owned a Dell, the USB port died on me. I called them and they sent me a technician who gave me a new machine and took the old one with him. He said the motherboard needed to be replaced and this just made things easier. He exchanged it for the exact same model, so he probably already knew before he was going to look at my machine what was wrong with it.

Even that service impressed me considering that technician showed up two days later. But this was probably back in 2003 or 2004. I have no idea if their customer service has changed since then. In 2007 I converted to Apple when my barely 3 year old Dell died permanently on me and was no longer under warranty. I bought a MBP since I heard they lasted a long time. Though I had a number of issues with this one, Apple always fixed them and it's still running strong after 5 years.

 

[jcpb]

I think this was a good business decision for apple. They are forcing people to buy their over priced ram. On the other hand, they are providing an exceptional laptop and you will most likely not have to upgrade it for a good 3-4 years.

Apple's RAM upgrade prices this year are overpriced?

 

[pragmatous]

You know I didn't even think about that. That's also a good point.

We are entering a path that will lead to simpler designs, by integration, however the cost for the parts is going to be raised.

Because they need to stock less parts would that simplify the process, actually be good for the environment, and therefore reduce the cost (for business) making the whole "Whine" moot? Who cares just pop out the bad board, easier to recycle, and pop in the new one. Maybe that should be the point of a motherboard. Simpler, integrated, mainboard (SIM) ha!

Also in another forum the one guy basically said hardware is just overkill compared to what the software requirements are. Why do we need to upgrade? Hardware is already overkill for what we do.

 

[JohnDoe98]

It wouldn't surprise me if they integrate the wifi chips and all the port controllers into the motherboards soon. Replaceable flash storage? That's likely going b-bye soon too.

Eventually I suspect our technology is going to progress to the point where everything will be integrated into the cpu and the motherboards will be incredibly small.

Intel is already trying to squeeze out the GPU manufacturers, though they still have a lot of work to do on that front. Do you really think they aren't already planning to squeeze out broadcom and qualcom? Won't be long and they'll set their eye on the RAM too.

 

[pragmatous]

Well 16GB for 200 dollars isn't a bad deal. Right now it's ~150 for DDR3 1600. No doubt Apple is making a hefty profit there but it's still not bad compared to 300-400 on some brand sites.

I don't see why anyone would need to upgrade their laptop ever. I have a 1.6ghz core i7. The only reason why I upgraded is because I wanted a Mac. I want to get back into program development. Work with Android and eventually get into programming apps for the Mac. My first gen quad core i7 still runs anything I through at it.

I think this was a good business decision for apple. They are forcing people to buy their over priced ram. On the other hand, they are providing an exceptional laptop and you will most likely not have to upgrade it for a good 3-4 years.

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http://www.anandtech.com/show/5554/...ore-atom-soc-with-integrated-wifi-transceiver

It seems the goal is small, thin, and light. It's the only next logical step in progression I guess. Now that hardware has outpaced software needs.

It wouldn't surprise me if they integrate the wifi chips and all the port controllers into the motherboards soon. Replaceable flash storage? That's likely going b-bye soon too.

Eventually I suspect our technology is going to progress to the point where everything will be integrated into the cpu and the motherboards will be incredibly small.

Intel is already trying to squeeze out the GPU manufacturers, though they still have a lot of work to do on that front. Do you really think they aren't already planning to squeeze out broadcom and qualcom? Won't be long and they'll set their eye on the RAM too.

 

[JohnDoe98]

It seems the goal is small, thin, and light. It's the only next logical step in progression I guess. Now that hardware has outpaced software needs.

That's probably an important driving factor, but for Intel I imagine it is so that they can take over even more of the market. The small, thin, light is simply a means to their monopolistic ends. And just to be clear, I'm not insinuating this is a bad thing from Intel. In this case they are actually on the side of progress.

PS: thanks for the link.

 

[pragmatous]

That is without a doubt on what Intel's plans are. And no problem on the link.

Alright time for bed. Thanks for the interesting discussion to those that wanted to take part. That was the point of this post not reiterate old news.

My mac departed from Alaska! I should get it Monday. Can't wait.
Laterz.

That's probably an important driving factor, but for Intel I imagine it is so that they can take over even more of the market. The small, thin, light is simply a means to their monopolistic ends. And just to be clear, I'm not insinuating this is a bad thing from Intel. In this case they are actually on the side of progress.

PS: thanks for the link.

 

[Mr MM]

Well 16GB for 200 dollars isn't a bad deal. Right now it's ~150 for DDR3 1600. No doubt Apple is making a hefty profit there but it's still not bad compared to 300-400 on some brand sites.

I don't see why anyone would need to upgrade their laptop ever. I have a 1.6ghz core i7. The only reason why I upgraded is because I wanted a Mac. I want to get back into program development. Work with Android and eventually get into programming apps for the Mac. My first gen quad core i7 still runs anything I through at it.



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http://www.anandtech.com/show/5554/...ore-atom-soc-with-integrated-wifi-transceiver

It seems the goal is small, thin, and light. It's the only next logical step in progression I guess. Now that hardware has outpaced software needs.

its DDR3L, a little more expensive, but they are making a profit, how much I dont know.

But yes, to get more integration is the idea.

Sharkbay (one of haswell chipsets) is the idea for SOCs in a x86 platform, everything will be in there, and its just next year for utrabooks to have that, probably broadwell would bring it to the mainstream mobile.

We have to start thinking in other terms.