The oldest Mac that can "surf"

[bunnspecial]

I'm typing this from a 500mhz Pismo with 384mb of RAM(I have more on the way, and intend to take it up to a full 1gb) running 9.2.2 and using Classilla. I'm connected via an Airport card.

Overall, I'm finding browsing to be a pretty miserable experience. Specifically, the scrolling is very laggy, and I'm frequently finding it necessary to minimize and then expand the window to get it to appear correctly after scrolling down the page.

My 500mhz iMac and 350mhz B&W do a lot better, but I suspect that the fact that each has 1gb of RAM helps a lot. I've run into similar scrolling issues with my 800mhz iBook G3, which also currently has 384mb of RAM.

As I mentioned, I have RAM on the way-specifically several 512mb PC-133 SO-DIMMs. I intend to upgrade the Pismo to 1gb, and the iBook to 640mb(512mb+128mb soldered on). I hope this will pep both computers up a lot.

I'm probably going to install 10.4 on the Pismo this evening, so I'll see how Tenfourfox does(I expect probably not well).

 

[flyinmac]

My PowerBook G3 works comfortably, but my Macintosh SE can't even load a single picture. What do you think is the oldest Mac (with upgrades) that can surf the internet?

It's all really just a matter of how much work you want to put into it. It's been years now since I've done it or cared... But, I once had an Apple IIgs browsing the Internet graphically. Don't ask me to recall everything I did, it's been too many years now, and I no longer have any Apple II stuff around these days.

But, I believe there is a site somewhere that details the necessities. I'm sure a similar project could be accomplished for the older Macs as well, as there really isn't a huge difference between the capabilities of the earlier Macs and the later IIgs, other than of course CPU architecture, etc...

But, they both used similar communication protocols (serial / desktop bus), similar graphical environment (though again different CPU architecture), etc.

So, it's really a matter of how much you want to throw at it... Time, hardware, software / tweaks (either created by yourself or someone else if someone else has already done the work before).

I've seen networking them to current ethernet / cable modems with various adapters (what they called them now skips my mind - but it seems like it was similar to a short haul modem / serial to ethernet adapter). Essentially a tiny server in a box to act as a serial modem to the computer and an ethernet adapter / gateway to the network.

Then you just need the software which is either already available, or you may have to make, to establish the graphical browsing experience.

Don't expect inline pictures to appear as they do on modern machines. Usually the projects done by others in similar experiments format the HTML properly, but often have the images referenced by a link you may click on to view them separately. Keep in mind that older machines didn't have the graphical resolution of today's machines.

All you can really do, is start looking on google to see if someone's done it before with your machine, and what they used. Or, look at what others have done with similar machines and start experimenting towards a solution for yourself if you want a project.

I recall experiments / public projects for this type of thing with the Apple IIe, IIgs, and Commodore 64/128, among others that vaguely pop up... So, I would say technically, any Mac "can" do it. But, the question really is whether it's been done, and if not how much time and resources and learning are you willing to throw at it?

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I'm typing this from a 500mhz Pismo with 384mb of RAM(I have more on the way, and intend to take it up to a full 1gb) running 9.2.2 and using Classilla. I'm connected via an Airport card.

Overall, I'm finding browsing to be a pretty miserable experience. Specifically, the scrolling is very laggy, and I'm frequently finding it necessary to minimize and then expand the window to get it to appear correctly after scrolling down the page.

My 500mhz iMac and 350mhz B&W do a lot better, but I suspect that the fact that each has 1gb of RAM helps a lot. I've run into similar scrolling issues with my 800mhz iBook G3, which also currently has 384mb of RAM.

As I mentioned, I have RAM on the way-specifically several 512mb PC-133 SO-DIMMs. I intend to upgrade the Pismo to 1gb, and the iBook to 640mb(512mb+128mb soldered on). I hope this will pep both computers up a lot.

I'm probably going to install 10.4 on the Pismo this evening, so I'll see how Tenfourfox does(I expect probably not well).

Incidentally... semi related to my other post... I am familiar with the guy who heads the Classilla project. His experience in the computer industry and hobbiest market is extensive. If you really want to learn how to get old machines on the Internet, and what resources there are to accomplish it, he's definitely someone to strike up a conversation with.

He's been involved in other similar projects for vintage machines... And, I'm very familiar (or used to be very familiar) with his past projects.

It may not be a project he wants to get into, depending on his current interest level... But, he could certainly give you some good pointers and send you in the right direction.

 

[bunnspecial]

Incidentally... semi related to my other post... I am familiar with the guy who heads the Classilla project. His experience in the computer industry and hobbiest market is extensive. If you really want to learn how to get old machines on the Internet, and what resources there are to accomplish it, he's definitely someone to strike up a conversation with.

He's been involved in other similar projects for vintage machines... And, I'm very familiar (or used to be very familiar) with his past projects.

It may not be a project he wants to get into, depending on his current interest level... But, he could certainly give you some good pointers and send you in the right direction.

I might try sending him an email. Incidentally, while the Pismo is very slow under 10.4(again, I hope that more RAM will at least help. I also have a newish 60gb 5400 rpm drive already cloned that I'm going to put in when I take it apart for the RAM upgrade, since I don't want to deal with having to pull the CPU and repaste the heatsink more than once)I can actually browse reasonably well(albeit slowly) with Tenfourfox. The biggest pain now with it is the lag between pressing a key and it appearing on the screen-again, I hope this is RAM related.

Incidentally, the scrolling problem in Classilla seems to mostly occur at Macrumors. I visited a couple of other vBulletin based forums-both on the mobile and desktop sites-and didn't have the horrible scrolling lag that I experienced here. I'm not sure what's unique about this forum that caused that.

Now if I could just get a working Pismo battery. The one I have now is good for about 30-40 minutes. Unfortunately, even aftermarket replacements are $80+ on Ebay. I'd like to find some dead batteries to play around with rebuilding the with fresh cells.

 

[MacTech68]

From my experience with repairing/upgrading various clients G3 machines "way back when", 512MB RAM is the point at which you see the full potential of the machine under OS X.

A 7200RPM drive helps too.

Not saying it will be speedy, but it will be speedier.

 

[bunnspecial]

From my experience with repairing/upgrading various clients G3 machines "way back when", 512MB RAM is the point at which you see the full potential of the machine under OS X.

A 7200RPM drive helps too.

Not saying it will be speedy, but it will be speedier.

Yes, I'm hopeful that more RAM will help. Most of my 10.4 machines have at least 1gb of RAM, although admittedly a G4 processor(of any speed) peps up 10.4 a lot also.

With the prices of 2.5" 7200 RPM IDE drives these days, I'm compromise with the 5400. I think it's a 4400 RPM now(it's the stock Apple drive) so we'll see if that makes a difference.

I wish that the design were such that I could try all of this stuff incrementally. From looking at the tear-down guides, it looks like the processor card needs to come out to access the hard drive caddy, and of course it also needs to come out to access the lower RAM slot. I really hate applying thermal compound(or more specifically cleaning up the old), so will just do it all at once to avoid having to do that part more than once. Of course, the worse part of cleaning up is chipping out all the old 15 year old stuff, but Artic Silver 5 is pricey enough that I also had to waste a fresh application of it.

And, no, I'm not expecting a speed demon by any means but having something useable would be nice.

I also need to tackle repasting my iBook G3 and both of my Powerbook G5s, but none of those are jobs I'm looking forward to.

 

[MacTech68]

...I also need to tackle repasting my iBook G3 and both of my Powerbook G5s, but none of those are jobs I'm looking forward to.

Indeed. (Assuming you mean PowerBook G4 Titanium - Aluminum is a little easier). I hate the Titanium Powerbooks for getting the motherboard out. perhaps the worst is the 12" Aluminum PowerBooks. If you have a bad Optical Drive in one of those, the take-apart is horrible - and never needed to be.

 

[bunnspecial]

Indeed. (Assuming you mean PowerBook G4 Titanium - Aluminum is a little easier). I hate the Titanium Powerbooks for getting the motherboard out. perhaps the worst is the 12" Aluminum PowerBooks. If you have a bad Optical Drive in one of those, the take-apart is horrible - and never needed to be.

Ooops, just realized my typo by saying G5 rather than G4(although I wish Apple had made a Powerbook G5!).

I actually have both an Aluminum and Titanium, and both could stand a repaste.

I've had both apart to some extent, but really to the point of accessing hard drives. I can definitely see how the Aluminum would be easier.

My Aluminum is a 15", and the last generation 1.67ghz model with the high resolution screen. It's probably my most useable(as in for real work, not just hobby playing around) PowerPC machine next to my dual core G5, but gets HOT when I start working on it.

Come to think of it, my dual core G5 that I use it work probably needs a repaste also. The GPU consistently hovers around 140ºF when idling, and the CPU gets up close to that when moderately pushed. Even if that's not overly hot, I can't help but think that the 8-year old paste on both the CPU and GPU has probably seen better days.

 

[Mk.558]

But, I believe there is a site somewhere that details the necessities. I'm sure a similar project could be accomplished for the older Macs as well, as there really isn't a huge difference between the capabilities of the earlier Macs and the later IIgs, other than of course CPU architecture, etc...

There is, and I'm hoping to have it updated to version 3.2 by the end of the month.

The oldest Mac that can online works like this:

128K, 128Ke: Use MacTerminal over a serial console line, call up Lynx. I've done this with a 512Ke, the 128K series will work exactly the same way.

512K: Same, or TOPS Terminal.
512Ke: ibid. You can also run MacTCP 1.1.1, but I didn't get it to work with Fetch. Dicey work because of the memory limit.

Mac Plus: Default minimum. You can use any of the previous methods, or a SCSI Ethernet Adapter (SSW 6+), pseudo-PPP dialup (SSW 6+), IPNetRouter (requires System 6).

 

[flyinmac]

There is, and I'm hoping to have it updated to version 3.2 by the end of the month.

The oldest Mac that can online works like this:

128K, 128Ke: Use MacTerminal over a serial console line, call up Lynx. I've done this with a 512Ke, the 128K series will work exactly the same way.

512K: Same, or TOPS Terminal.
512Ke: ibid. You can also run MacTCP 1.1.1, but I didn't get it to work with Fetch. Dicey work because of the memory limit.

Mac Plus: Default minimum. You can use any of the previous methods, or a SCSI Ethernet Adapter (SSW 6+), pseudo-PPP dialup (SSW 6+), IPNetRouter (requires System 6).

Hey, great information. I have vague memories of Lynx (seems like my college had something by that name). A great alternative.

 

[bunnspecial]

Just to update on the Pismo, I now have it put back together with 1gb of RAM and a 5400 rpm 60gb HDD. I also pulled the Airport card, and am using a Belkin 802.11g PCMIA card (it's recognized as an Airport Extreme card under Tiger, although doesn't work at all under OS 9).

All of the above upgrades made a BIG difference-although it's not exactly fast now, it is at least useable for web browsing and just a lot more responsive in everything I've tried to do with it.

As I'm typing this(in TenFourFox) one of the most noticeable improvement is that there's no perceptible lag between when I press a key and the character appears on the screen. That drives me crazy, so I'm happy that particular issue is gone.

 

[orestes1984]

In terms of what will be a "usable" experience on the modern web... Probably a PowerMac 6100/66 "Pizza Box" Mac with OS 8.6. Provided you have enough RAM you should be able to run Classila on it just fine. It wont be fast but it should render everything just fine out of the box. If you upgrade the RAM to 64mb it'll help.

You will need an AUI-15 to Ethernet adapter to get it online though. A low profile NUBUS video card with at 4mb of RAM will also help for using it with modern high resolution monitors also. The MacPicasso 320 if you can find one from Sonett had 4mb of RAM and a VGA connection for modern monitors. They've since entered the land of rare and somewhat expensive in comparison to the machine though.