The (other) problem with Retina on iPad 2

[Xian Zhu Xuande]

No, but it matters for a retina iPad; the resolution would be significantly higher than 1080p.

No harm in going over. And besides, 1920 vs. 2048 is no 'significantly higher' difference. Black bars will occupy the other space, or it will be zoomed in. At the smaller screen size/higher PPI it will look every bit as marvelous as the quality of the stored video allows.

If iPhone 4 and iPad use similar PPI ratios, Apple's only providing content for the iPhone 4.

?

For those of you saying that a retina display won't effect image quality on web size images, it depends on if the physical display size is the same.

Zoomed out, it will look better as more details is presented. Approaching natural size it will look relatively normal. Zoomed in it will look slightly blurred/blocky, but the resampling algorithm keeps things crisp enough without the loss of pixels that would be required otherwise.

Ever print a picture from the web, a 4x6" at 72 dpi on a monitor looks much better than a 4x6" at 72dpi when printed.

Software technologies can resample/resize in ways that make this irrelevant. The image scaling algorithms in Safari do quite well.

 

[jessea]

Bullsh * t... any content can at worst look exactly the same as the iPad 1. It only subjectively APPEARS to be worse because you are comparing it to the super crisp text and other stuff on the rest of the screen.

No, this isn't correct, sorry. It has nothing to do with comparison to other high-res elements.

Don't believe me? Take a screenshot of a home screen on a 3GS, then view the screenshot on an iPhone 4 side-by-side.

It looks worse on the iPhone 4 because the jagged edges stand out more. The lower res screen helps smooth over the low dpi look.

 

[Mechinyun]

man.. forget all this high REZ jibba jabba... they should make the ipad 2 half the resolution of the current one.

 

[Defender2010]

Before I owned the iPad, one of my reasons for holding off on purchasing was to see if Apple would double the pixel density on the iPad 2. After using an iPhone 4 for a while, looking at an iPad screen looked pixelated.

Over time and use, I became less interested in a Retina display showing up on the iPad 2. It's not so much because I adjusted to the current display (although I did), and it's not because of powering the display. I'm concerned about the display of content. Text would look fantastic, no doubt. But images that came from non-native sources have the potential to look horrible.

Let's face it: we live in a 72-150dpi world for the most part. The iPhone 4 gets away with it because a high-density iPhone screen is still less than most desktop monitors, though if you've used an iPhone 4, you know how bad some things can look.

A 2048x1536 display on an iPad would make images look poor when browsing the web. iTunes artwork at its current dimensions would suffer. Images pulled into apps from outside sources (Twitter, RSS readers, etc.) are bound to appear pixelated.

Until desktop pixel density starts to catch up, I'm really wondering if the experience of those activities (particularly web browsing) would suffer on a Retina display. That said, knowing Apple, they wouldn't do it if the experience suffered that much.

Thoughts?

Interesting thoughts, but i feel like we should all look ahead to the future with the thoughts that things will get better, clearer and better for us to use. Nobody really wants to see pixels, true, but if a website can run perfectly well on a 27inch monitor without pixelation then i am sure sites can look amazing on the iPad 2 too, should it have a 'retina' display.
Artwork can be high quality too, a little work should fix this...all my album artwork is 2000+x2000+, and it will look amazing on a 10 inch 'retina' display. We have to update all our movies just so they look great too! I for one replaced all my movies with 720p versions just so they don't look crap on the display...like itunes music videos for example (why anyone would want something of such low quality on their iPad, iPhone 4 is beyond me) but i am sure we would all rather have the option of 1080p and advancement in screen technology rather than sticking on the current 720p.
Push the boundaries Apple, and if developers have to update their apps or we have to update or album artwork/movies/photos etc,,,so be it!!! Resolutions like the iPhone 3gs etc are on their way out,,,,,about time!

 

[Runt888]

No, this isn't correct, sorry. It has nothing to do with comparison to other high-res elements.

Don't believe me? Take a screenshot of a home screen on a 3GS, then view the screenshot on an iPhone 4 side-by-side.

It looks worse on the iPhone 4 because the jagged edges stand out more. The lower res screen helps smooth over the low dpi look.

You're completely incorrect.

 

[jessea]

You're completely incorrect.

Have you tried what I said?

By the way, I know the math is the same. Everyone knows the math is the same. It's not the math that's the problem. It's the way the screen looks.

I just did the test with a friend's iPod touch. I owned a 3rd gen iPod touch and iPhone 4 at the same time... did quite a few comparisons. It was right when the iPhone 4 came out, so most apps weren't updated for retina. There is absolutely no doubt about the difference.

Also, just to reiterate, I'm not talking about comparing text. Compare icons and images. That's what we're talking about.

 

[Runt888]

Have you tried what I said?

By the way, I know the math is the same. Everyone knows the math is the same. It's not the math that's the problem. It's the way the screen looks.

I just did the test with a friend's old iPod touch. There's a clear difference.

If you're seeing a difference, then what you're seeing is compression in the image being saved.

If you look at an app icon that hasn't been updated for the retina display, they look identical on the 3GS and the 4. And yes, I have tried this. It just seems to look worse because everything else on the display looks so much better.

 

[Ace134blue]

Actually a valid point; but the higher density might drive that content, or at least look good zoomed out. At worst, it'll just look the same.

Apple doesn't even provide content in resolution higher than 720p, which the iPhone 4 is only 80 pixels short of :/

You mean the iphones res is 307,200 pixels short of 720p?

 

[muu]

Amusing thread. Hope OP doesn't own an upconverting DVD player of any sort.

 

[tallyho]

No, this isn't correct, sorry. It has nothing to do with comparison to other high-res elements.

Don't believe me? Take a screenshot of a home screen on a 3GS, then view the screenshot on an iPhone 4 side-by-side.

It looks worse on the iPhone 4 because the jagged edges stand out more. The lower res screen helps smooth over the low dpi look.

It is true that there is a difference - the people arguing that icons or UI elements designed for the 480X320 iPhones look identical on the iPhone 4 are just wrong. And yes, of course I've tried this side by side.

What the OP means is that the higher pixel density screen on the iP4 renders those low-resolution graphics so crisply that you clearly see the square pixels (or rather 2X2 blocks of pixels on the iP4 screen). On the original iPhone screens everything is just fuzzier.

Now, I think the overall improvement in sharpness is well worth the side-effect that you are aware of the 2x2 "pixels" of lower-resolution UI elements or graphics. And when it comes to browsing websites with photos, the higher resolution display really comes into its own, as anyone with an iP4 knows.

The point brought up in this thread is not really the same as, say, upscaling DVDs on a HDTV - we're not talking about interpolated upscaling, just very sharply displayed pixel doubling (or quadrupling).

 

[GFLPraxis]

?

Badly worded, sorry. Essentially, Apple's only providing content that matches the iPhone 4's screen size (80 pixels taller), and the iPad is just stretching that.

 

[Wang Foolio]

"don't panic."

We won't know for sure how the upscaling will look side-by-side. Straight up pixel doubling doesn't really cause a lot of the same issues that are introduced when, for example, upconverting a DVD (or similar 480i signal) to 1080p. In that case you have deinterlacing and other signal processing issues to muck around with. Different kettle of fish here.

Beyond the basic concept of diminishing returns, I will concede that there might be some point where increasing pixel density will noticeably make low res content look worse. Without product in hand, I can't really say if that's the case.

A good example of all this was the switch from CRT TV's to flat screen LCD/plasma/LED/whatever. Older video game systems didn't look super pixellated and terrible because the CRT's were often fuzzy. Then all of a sudden you get a TV where the image is crisp and clean enough that you can actually distinguish between individual pixels on screen.

However. The gap between 8-bit or 16-bit graphics and today's 1080p screens is bigger than the (alleged) gap between iPad resolutions. You were viewing very unrealistic images on very crisp displays using that example. Viewing a very realistic image on either a crisp or very crisp screen probably won't be a huge issue.

Yes, it will probably be noticeable when you have the native and upscaled icons directly next to each other on the screen. Hopefully they will be on the ball with the transition. The App Store marketplace is quite mature at this point, so there might be some mechanism where the app developers can include higher resolution UI, icons etc. before any updated iPad with "retina" display drops.

Anyway, my point is always that we shouldn't be sweating these little details. When people demand massive tech changes with every single generation there will be the occasional awkward transition period. And they're usually not that bad, to be honest. Who knows, maybe there will be some anti-aliasing in the updated iOS. The extra horsepower from rumored new processor, GPU(s) etc. would certainly help make it an option.

I'm more concerned with them adding some small but actually useful features like a rudementary file management system (organizing your own photos, pdf's, etc isn't too much to ask I don't think). People fall prey to the "Now with 50% more of something you don't actually use!" hype that comes with modern tech.

 

[jessea]

If you're seeing a difference, then what you're seeing is compression in the image being saved.

If you look at an app icon that hasn't been updated for the retina display, they look identical on the 3GS and the 4. And yes, I have tried this. It just seems to look worse because everything else on the display looks so much better.

OK, that's cool then. We can disagree.

BTW, it's not compression. The iPhone saves PNG files, not JPEGs.

 

[jessea]

It is true that there is a difference - the people arguing that icons or UI elements designed for the 480X320 iPhones look identical on the iPhone 4 are just wrong. And yes, of course I've tried this side by side.

What the OP means is that the higher pixel density screen on the iP4 renders those low-resolution graphics so crisply that you clearly see the square pixels (or rather 2X2 blocks of pixels on the iP4 screen). On the original iPhone screens everything is just fuzzier.

Now, I think the overall improvement in sharpness is well worth the side-effect that you are aware of the 2x2 "pixels" of lower-resolution UI elements or graphics. And when it comes to browsing websites with photos, the higher resolution display really comes into its own, as anyone with an iP4 knows.

The point brought up in this thread is not really the same as, say, upscaling DVDs on a HDTV - we're not talking about interpolated upscaling, just very sharply displayed pixel doubling (or quadrupling).

Thank you, tallyho, and I agree 100% (finally someone who gets what I'm trying to say ). I'm not trying to make a bigger deal out of the issue than it is... just striking up conversation. I'll take Retina on iPad any day!

 

[Stetrain]

The point brought up in this thread is not really the same as, say, upscaling DVDs on a HDTV - we're not talking about interpolated upscaling, just very sharply displayed pixel doubling (or quadrupling).

Yes, and that only applies to User Interface elements, like icons and custom UI graphics. Normal images (like in Photos or Safari) will get upscaled, as will video content. The apps with low res UIs will eventually be updated, or people will move to ones that have been updated from ones that haven't. On my iPhone 4 the only holdout for a long time was the Facebook app, all the rest updated fairly quickly.

 

[Xian Zhu Xuande]

Badly worded, sorry. Essentially, Apple's only providing content that matches the iPhone 4's screen size (80 pixels taller), and the iPad is just stretching that.

I think I may understand you now. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I suspect you may see 1080p content provided through iTunes in the future as products will now be in a great position to display it, but on the flip-side they still may avoid it due to the considerable increase in storage space requirements.

720p will look every bit as good on a 4x resolution iPad as it does on the current iPad (subjectively speaking, at least; it should look better). 1080p would be an improvement, but I think there's room for honest discussion about whether that improvement is worth the tradeoffs (transfer times, bandwidth, storage space, overhead)—especially when you consider that this is a difference which won't be readily apparent to the general market.

In honesty, I'm not sure why anyone really cares much about 1080p on their mobile devices right now. It would be pleasant to have as an option on the Apple TV, though.

 

[sracer]

oops, wrong thread.

 

[Runt888]

It is true that there is a difference - the people arguing that icons or UI elements designed for the 480X320 iPhones look identical on the iPhone 4 are just wrong. And yes, of course I've tried this side by side.

What the OP means is that the higher pixel density screen on the iP4 renders those low-resolution graphics so crisply that you clearly see the square pixels (or rather 2X2 blocks of pixels on the iP4 screen). On the original iPhone screens everything is just fuzzier.

Now, I think the overall improvement in sharpness is well worth the side-effect that you are aware of the 2x2 "pixels" of lower-resolution UI elements or graphics. And when it comes to browsing websites with photos, the higher resolution display really comes into its own, as anyone with an iP4 knows.

The point brought up in this thread is not really the same as, say, upscaling DVDs on a HDTV - we're not talking about interpolated upscaling, just very sharply displayed pixel doubling (or quadrupling).

I disagree - Why would 4 pixels the same size and color as a single pixel look any different? I'm looking at an icon right now on a 3GS and 4, and it looks identical. It's much more jarring on the 4, but just the icon is the same.

OK, that's cool then. We can disagree.

BTW, it's not compression. The iPhone saves PNG files, not JPEGs.

You're right about the compression - I forgot PNGs are lossless. I don't know what to tell you... like you said, agree to disagree.