The PowerPC Mac development thread!

Jordan XP

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Original poster
Jul 5, 2019
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4
iMac flavors!.jpg

For anything relating to development of PowerPC or Universal binary software for Apple Macintosh computers.
No classic Mac OS-related stuff, OS X only please!
Also, do you love the 13 flavors of the iMac? I love them...
 

Raging Dufus

macrumors 6502
Aug 2, 2018
446
737
Kansas USA
Jordan, going by your photo and your demeanor, you seem quite young. Nothing at all wrong with that, there have been some very young people who've made big contributions here. And that's the point of this forum: to contribute.

There are a few different types of people who come here: those who need help with something, those who provide help, and those who like to discuss things of general interest. The two threads you've started don't really match up with any of that. You haven't told us anything the average user here wouldn't already know, you're not looking for help with anything, and you're not trying to be of help to anybody. Instead, you're demanding information to satisfy your own curiosity, and telling people what they should do.

Look, you're welcome here, regardless. But maybe chill on starting new threads for a while, just relax and take it all in. There's a lot to learn here. Why not give something a try that you haven't done before? There are a lot of threads here about using different browsers with Mac OS, or putting Linux on your Mac, and all kinds of other stuff that you can try. Do that, and you're bound to run into some problems or have some questions about something. Bring those here and I think you'll have a good experience.
 

Jordan XP

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Original poster
Jul 5, 2019
87
4
Jordan, going by your photo and your demeanor, you seem quite young. Nothing at all wrong with that, there have been some very young people who've made big contributions here. And that's the point of this forum: to contribute.

There are a few different types of people who come here: those who need help with something, those who provide help, and those who like to discuss things of general interest. The two threads you've started don't really match up with any of that. You haven't told us anything the average user here wouldn't already know, you're not looking for help with anything, and you're not trying to be of help to anybody. Instead, you're demanding information to satisfy your own curiosity, and telling people what they should do.

Look, you're welcome here, regardless. But maybe chill on starting new threads for a while, just relax and take it all in. There's a lot to learn here. Why not give something a try that you haven't done before? There are a lot of threads here about using different browsers with Mac OS, or putting Linux on your Mac, and all kinds of other stuff that you can try. Do that, and you're bound to run into some problems or have some questions about something. Bring those here and I think you'll have a good experience.
OK. If there's another development thread, can you take me there?
 

Raging Dufus

macrumors 6502
Aug 2, 2018
446
737
Kansas USA
OK. If there's another development thread, can you take me there?
That's a good question.

Can you be more specific about "development"? I know you're interested in OS X, but that still covers a lot of ground.

Are you interested in browser development? Other applications? Hardware modifications/upgrading? Tell us more.
 

Jordan XP

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Original poster
Jul 5, 2019
87
4
That's a good question.

Can you be more specific about "development"? I know you're interested in OS X, but that still covers a lot of ground.

Are you interested in browser development? Other applications? Hardware modifications/upgrading? Tell us more.
Specifically, about PowerPC and Universal binary software for OS X.
Some questions I have:
1. How does a Universal binary work?
2. How easy is it to rewrite PowerPC to Intel?
3. Is there any way to get Rosetta back on Lion to Mojave?
[doublepost=1565644665][/doublepost]
Jordan, going by your photo and your demeanor, you seem quite young. Nothing at all wrong with that, there have been some very young people who've made big contributions here. And that's the point of this forum: to contribute.

There are a few different types of people who come here: those who need help with something, those who provide help, and those who like to discuss things of general interest. The two threads you've started don't really match up with any of that. You haven't told us anything the average user here wouldn't already know, you're not looking for help with anything, and you're not trying to be of help to anybody. Instead, you're demanding information to satisfy your own curiosity, and telling people what they should do.

Look, you're welcome here, regardless. But maybe chill on starting new threads for a while, just relax and take it all in. There's a lot to learn here. Why not give something a try that you haven't done before? There are a lot of threads here about using different browsers with Mac OS, or putting Linux on your Mac, and all kinds of other stuff that you can try. Do that, and you're bound to run into some problems or have some questions about something. Bring those here and I think you'll have a good experience.
Yes, I'm 10 years old.
 
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z970mp

macrumors 68040
Jun 2, 2017
3,103
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The Matrix
OK. If there's another development thread, can you take me there?
Really, the entire forum is a development thread. If someone has devised a new browser, or utility, or what have you, they'll typically create a new thread to maximize the amount of people able to see it (as it's right there on the front page), and to create a special talking space just for that new application. In that sense, the PowerPC forum is one centralized area solely for singular development threads / talking points.

I'm just saying, that's a better way of doing things than announcing something new 7+ pages into one thread, meanwhile people struggle to find / download said application within said thread after the fact.

Iceweasel and SpiderWeb / SpiderMail come to mind... They really need their own threads, not their own posts three pages into an existing thread.
 

Jordan XP

Suspended
Original poster
Jul 5, 2019
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4
Really, the entire forum is a development thread. If someone has devised a new browser, or utility, or what have you, they'll typically create a new thread to maximize the amount of people able to see it (as it's right there on the front page), and to create a special talking space just for that new application. In that sense, the PowerPC forum is one centralized area solely for singular development threads / talking points.

I'm just saying, that's a better way of doing things than announcing something new 7+ pages into one thread, meanwhile people struggle to find / download said application within said thread after the fact.

Iceweasel and SpiderWeb / SpiderMail come to mind... They really need their own threads, not their own posts.
OK. Then you can close this thread now.
But do not delete it, cause it's good to archive things!
 

z970mp

macrumors 68040
Jun 2, 2017
3,103
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The Matrix
OK. Then you can close this thread now.
But do not delete it, it's good to archive things!
That would be up to the moderators, not us. Even so, they usually refrain from closing threads unless necessary. Aside that, I haven't heard of any threads ever getting deleted here.

For the UB inquiry... To my understanding, a Universal Binary is essentially (to simplify it) two applications rolled up into one to maintain compatibility between the two architectures. One built for PowerPCs with PowerPC code, and the other built for Intel with x86 code.

There are applications available to slim down systems with Universal Binaries in them, resulting in a completely optimized PowerPC-only system, or completely Intel-only system. This can save on disk space and possible launch times.
 
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Jubadub

macrumors regular
Nov 1, 2017
198
232
1. How does a Universal binary work?
2. How easy is it to rewrite PowerPC to Intel?
3. Is there any way to get Rosetta back on Lion to Mojave?
1. A file is compiled with 1 header, but multiple "bodies". That makes the files bigger, but the correct "body" for the architecture you are running the program in is executed. They can have up to 4 "bodies": 32-bit PowerPC, 64-bit PowerPC, 32-bit Intel, 64-Bit Intel.

2. If you have the source code of the program (and it's not written in assembly), you can recompile it to be either PowerPC or Intel. Or both (Universal). You can do this mainly with Xcode, an IDE from Apple. But you can also try other IDEs if you want, like CodeWarrior. Fiddle with the options of these programs when you want to compile, and you'll see. Take it slow!

3. In theory, with a lot of hard work, yes, but even after all those years since Lion and later were released, no one has done it. Not publicly, anyway. Part of the work involved includes editing the Lion system kernel (you can download part of the source code from Apple) not to throw an error when running Rosetta, but that's just scraping the surface.
 

Raging Dufus

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Aug 2, 2018
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Kansas USA
1. How does a Universal binary work?
Others have already given good explanations, better than I could give.

You may be interested in reading the following:



2. How easy is it to rewrite PowerPC to Intel?
Again, see what others have said. I'm afraid I can't be much help with this one.​

3. Is there any way to get Rosetta back on Lion to Mojave?
In theory sure, anything's possible. But I agree with @Jubadub, if it was going to be done somebody would have done it by now. I'm sure some pretty knowledgeable people have tried.
If you're interested in reading more about TenFourFox, the guy who made it has his own blog that you may find interesting. I don't understand a lot of what I read there, but it's still one of my favorite blogs, and he has stuff going back years ago:

Low End Mac has tons of good articles about all kinds of PowerPC stuff going back more than twenty years:


Finally, if you have access to YouTube, search there for stuff you're interested in. There's a ton of good info on YouTube about old or "retro" computers. Some of my favorites are:

Search around MacRumors too. If you have questions about any of it, hit us up.
 
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swamprock

macrumors 6502a
Aug 2, 2015
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Others have already given good explanations, better than I could give.

You may be interested in reading the following:





Again, see what others have said. I'm afraid I can't be much help with this one.​



In theory sure, anything's possible. But I agree with @Jubadub, if it was going to be done somebody would have done it by now. I'm sure some pretty knowledgeable people have tried.
If you're interested in reading more about TenFourFox, the guy who made it has his own blog that you may find interesting. I don't understand a lot of what I read there, but it's still one of my favorite blogs, and he has stuff going back years ago:

Low End Mac has tons of good articles about all kinds of PowerPC stuff going back more than twenty years:


Finally, if you have access to YouTube, search there for stuff you're interested in. There's a ton of good info on YouTube about old or "retro" computers. Some of my favorites are:

Search around MacRumors too. If you have questions about any of it, hit us up.
I'd add LGR to that list. He covers mostly vintage PC-based subjects, but a great and fascinating channel nevertheless- https://www.youtube.com/user/phreakindee
[doublepost=1565673003][/doublepost]
View attachment 852698
For anything relating to development of PowerPC or Universal binary software for Apple Macintosh computers.
No classic Mac OS-related stuff, OS X only please!
Also, do you love the 13 flavors of the iMac? I love them...
I have a Rev.2 Bondi Blue iMac, but it's got a special @dosdude1 modification that makes it a bit faster than your typical Bondi. It's actually an iMac G4 400, a machine that's not suppose to exist, but now does. I think there are 3 or 4 of them out there now :)


 
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dosdude1

macrumors 68020
Feb 16, 2012
2,457
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On Macrumors, there is https://forums.macrumors.com/forums/mac-programming.73/.
Any old Cocoa book should do for Tiger/Leopard era programming.
I've written Cocoa programs for PPC before. It's no different than writing a modern application in Objective-C, the only difference being you can't use ARC (automatic reference counting, AKA fancy garbage collection). You also have to use an old version of Xcode in Leopard or older in order to compile a FAT (PPC/Intel) binary. Also, you cannot compile a 64-bit Intel binary into it, it can only be 32-bit Intel and PPC, as far as I can tell.
 

JoSch

macrumors 6502
Feb 22, 2013
319
101
I've written Cocoa programs for PPC before. It's no different than writing a modern application in Objective-C, the only difference being you can't use ARC (automatic reference counting, AKA fancy garbage collection). You also have to use an old version of Xcode in Leopard or older in order to compile a FAT (PPC/Intel) binary. Also, you cannot compile a 64-bit Intel binary into it, it can only be 32-bit Intel and PPC, as far as I can tell.
Yes, I wrote that, because newer books tend to assume newer Xcodes, which work very different than say Xcode 3 ;-)
 

reukiodo

macrumors 6502
Nov 22, 2013
294
134
Earth
Also, you cannot compile a 64-bit Intel binary into it, it can only be 32-bit Intel and PPC, as far as I can tell.
I wonder if this is a limitation of the older Xcode versions? as I vaguely recall seeing some app with all 4 (ppc32, ppc64, intel32, intel64) included... perhaps manually joined with lipo after separate builds? Something to try when I get some tinker time...
 

Jubadub

macrumors regular
Nov 1, 2017
198
232
I wonder if this is a limitation of the older Xcode versions? as I vaguely recall seeing some app with all 4 (ppc32, ppc64, intel32, intel64) included... perhaps manually joined with lipo after separate builds? Something to try when I get some tinker time...
Xcode 4.2 for Snow Leopard can target Tiger, IIRC, so if the ability to have all 4 isn't present in some PPC-compatible Xcode version, it may be present in some Intel-only version.
 

XaPHER

macrumors 6502
Oct 13, 2010
280
177
@Jubadub 4.2 no longer bundles GCC, (which requires you to install at least parts of xcode 3.2.6 to get it back) so 4.2 is pretty out of scope.

Meanwhile, @dosdude1 I'm a (nearly) complete illiterate when it comes to xcode and cocoa, (xcode 3.1.4, 10.5ppc) the driver for both gcc-4.0.1 and gcc-4.2.1 accepts all four -arch i386 -arch x86_64 -arch ppc -arch ppc64 in the same command. The HelloWorld.c binary runs on my macbook and reports as 64-bit intel. (Of course it runs on ppc aswell). Is the issue related to Xcode < 4 not offering project setups for x86_64, or is there something I'm not looking at (like objc, or cocoa frameworks)?
 
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dosdude1

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Feb 16, 2012
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@Jubadub 4.2 no longer bundles GCC, (which requires you to install at least parts of xcode 3.2.6 to get it back) so 4.2 is pretty out of scope.

Meanwhile, @dosdude1 I'm a (nearly) complete illiterate when it comes to xcode and cocoa, (xcode 3.1.4, 10.5ppc) the driver for both gcc-4.0.1 and gcc-4.2.1 accepts all four -arch i386 -arch x86_64 -arch ppc -arch ppc64 in the same command. The HelloWorld.c binary runs on my macbook and reports as 64-bit intel. (Of course it runs on ppc aswell). Is the issue related to Xcode < 4 not offering project setups for x86_64, or is there something I'm not looking at (like objc, or cocoa frameworks)?
Honestly with some custom build flags and a newer Xcode/Mac OS version, it may be possible. I'll have to experiment and see if I can get something to work. Running the file command on an executable binary will display all the compiled architectures.
 

Appleuser201

macrumors 6502
Oct 12, 2018
382
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Jordan, going by your photo and your demeanor, you seem quite young. Nothing at all wrong with that, there have been some very young people who've made big contributions here. And that's the point of this forum: to contribute.

There are a few different types of people who come here: those who need help with something, those who provide help, and those who like to discuss things of general interest. The two threads you've started don't really match up with any of that. You haven't told us anything the average user here wouldn't already know, you're not looking for help with anything, and you're not trying to be of help to anybody. Instead, you're demanding information to satisfy your own curiosity, and telling people what they should do.

Look, you're welcome here, regardless. But maybe chill on starting new threads for a while, just relax and take it all in. There's a lot to learn here. Why not give something a try that you haven't done before? There are a lot of threads here about using different browsers with Mac OS, or putting Linux on your Mac, and all kinds of other stuff that you can try. Do that, and you're bound to run into some problems or have some questions about something. Bring those here and I think you'll have a good experience.
TheG4girl on YouTube is about 11 or 12 I think... on the day she was born, Apple had already switched to intel.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC93dXCZEQSY0RDtTWAsEncw
 

Jubadub

macrumors regular
Nov 1, 2017
198
232
https://github.com/devernay/xcodelegacy should help in getting the older build system parts on newer XCode systems.
Holy ****, I was just thinking the other day of embarking on some quest of this kind of my own (and, knowing me, never actually getting to do it) to extract relevant components from earlier Xcode in the hopes to use it on 10.x under Mojave to compile older 10.4 PPC binaries, but this project does that and a lot more, and far better than I'd have done it. Simply excellent.

Kinda wanna try building a quick "Hello World" program to see how well this works / how easily set up it is.
 
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JagdTiger

macrumors 6502
Dec 20, 2017
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View attachment 852698
For anything relating to development of PowerPC or Universal binary software for Apple Macintosh computers.
No classic Mac OS-related stuff, OS X only please!
Also, do you love the 13 flavors of the iMac? I love them...
I had the lime green one, it’s was nice...apple should redo theses in a more updated tech.
 

reukiodo

macrumors 6502
Nov 22, 2013
294
134
Earth
1. A file is compiled with 1 header, but multiple "bodies". That makes the files bigger, but the correct "body" for the architecture you are running the program in is executed. They can have up to 4 "bodies": 32-bit PowerPC, 64-bit PowerPC, 32-bit Intel, 64-Bit Intel.
Is this accurate? I thought you could have any number of binaries, not limited to just 4. When I have time, I might just try to lipo together some ppc, ppc7400, ppc7450, ppc750, x86_32, and x86_64 code together just to see if it could work with all 6.

I think if I were a developer I'd try to make my osx app in multiple binaries optimized for many architectures, so a single app could run on anything from 10.0 to 10.15:
ppc - 10.0-10.5
ppc7400 - 10.4-10.5
ppc7450 - 10.4-10.5
ppc750 - 10.5
x86_32 - 10.6-10.14
x86_64 - 10.8+

I'm pretty sure this is doable, if not easy or optimal. Still, I think it would be very Mac-like to just offer a single download for any osx version.
 
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