The 2016/2017 doesn't have Iris Pro. The iGPU on 2015 is twice as fast as the 2016/2017 models and it also has 64 or 128MB RAM eDRAM build in. The 2016/2017 have a neutered iGPU. My guess that is why even the minimal configuration has a dGPU.
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The Pricing of the 2015 MBP Is Out to Lunch
- Thread starter groove-agent
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The 2016/2017 doesn't have Iris Pro. The iGPU on 2015 is twice as fast as the 2016/2017 models and it also has 64 or 128MB RAM eDRAM build in. The 2016/2017 have a neutered iGPU. My guess that is why even the minimal configuration has a dGPU.
Apple wanted to be able to say "dual 5K external monitors" with even the lowest 15" config, thus a powerful dGPU is necessary anyway, in which case neglects the need of a powerful iGPU in a sense. However, this change came at the expense of lower graphical performance in otherwise low usage, this is why owners of the 2016 complained about Finder looking sluggish'er than even the 2015 without dGPU. I don't know if the 2017 Kaby Lakes have remedied the situation, or if High Sierra using Metal2 for GUI helped this, either way we are still looking at a better user experience on the 2015 iGPU simply due to it being more powerful than the 2016/17's.
The difference stays the same and I happen to like to store all my pictures on my drive because it makes also backup a lot more simpler. Also my current machine has the 1TB drive. In 2013 I paid 2200 Euro for 1TB SSD and 16GB RAM for my 13 rMBP
The OP at that time was talking about 15" machines. Their price for 2015 had more of a difference since the 512 GB model was a standard model and 1TB was BTO (custom). I paid $2130 for a new 15" 2015 with 16 GB, dGPU, and 512GB drive in early 2016. Retail was $2499. And at the time BTO 1GB was $2999.
Completely agree - I routinely see them on Craigslist locally and often times they are in superb condition, with extra Applecare, for $1400-1700 range, which is of course a screaming deal on the 15" models.
The thing is though, my new 2017 cost 11.4% more than the closest in performance I could get a refurb for (config was 512GB drive, 2GB Video Ram x360 video card, 2.8Hz CPU speed). I got a 12.8% discount though on the new 2017 model (not through Apple, but through a very large department store who regular discounts although they are not that frequent). But I reckon in the USA 10% discounts might be available for new 2017 stock configuration MacBook Pros. Apple sales on the phone (in Australia) told me they would go up to 10% for a discount to price match, but no more. Never more than 10% ...
So ... that means a 2017 in recommended retail price $ in Australia costs 25% more than the closest 2015 would cost, and if you get a discount of 10%, then that's just 15% more. Mine cost 11.4% more than a slower 2015 refurb.
There's also a possibility IMO that if you found a discount price for a 2017 and you rang Apple, they might match the discount at 10%, and maybe they'd apply that to a special build. i.e. for a 1TB SSD drive.
However, I reckon with the speed of T3 and even USB3+ - external drives are cheap now, so why get 1 TB internal when external drives are nows so fast, cheap and tiny? Large internal drives also have the issue of backing up and needed a much larger drive to do that.
I was willing to buy a 2015 Refurb for the 25% RRP off the full price for a 2017 MBP 512GB model; but I wanted the 2.8Hz processor because it performs a whole lot quicker than the 2.5Hz processor. At the end of the day, getting a discount for a new 2017 was better value for me, which mean't the new 2017 computer cost would have been 11.4% less for a 2015 refurb, and that getting the 2017 unit cost me 12.% more than the refurb would have cost me (switching the denomitor makes differences in % price differences).
Plus I win with size, T3/USB3+, easier charging, much cheaper and wider choice of external components, a faster machine with longer term and quite enhanced video capabilities. I don't think the 2015 2.5Hz refurbs are worth what Apple are charging.
So ... that means a 2017 in recommended retail price $ in Australia costs 25% more than the closest 2015 would cost, and if you get a discount of 10%, then that's just 15% more. Mine cost 11.4% more than a slower 2015 refurb.
There's also a possibility IMO that if you found a discount price for a 2017 and you rang Apple, they might match the discount at 10%, and maybe they'd apply that to a special build. i.e. for a 1TB SSD drive.
However, I reckon with the speed of T3 and even USB3+ - external drives are cheap now, so why get 1 TB internal when external drives are nows so fast, cheap and tiny? Large internal drives also have the issue of backing up and needed a much larger drive to do that.
I was willing to buy a 2015 Refurb for the 25% RRP off the full price for a 2017 MBP 512GB model; but I wanted the 2.8Hz processor because it performs a whole lot quicker than the 2.5Hz processor. At the end of the day, getting a discount for a new 2017 was better value for me, which mean't the new 2017 computer cost would have been 11.4% less for a 2015 refurb, and that getting the 2017 unit cost me 12.% more than the refurb would have cost me (switching the denomitor makes differences in % price differences).
Plus I win with size, T3/USB3+, easier charging, much cheaper and wider choice of external components, a faster machine with longer term and quite enhanced video capabilities. I don't think the 2015 2.5Hz refurbs are worth what Apple are charging.
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Unless of course you highly value built in ports, MagSafe, an actually reliable and (to some) more comfortable keyboard and normal sized trackpad.
There are many reasons to choose the previous designs over the current ones.
Newer design ≠ Better in all ways for all users
I agree. The 2016/2017 is poor value IMO. Now you have to buy/ use expensive and unsightly dongles every time you want to plug in the simplest device. What if you forget it at home? I'd rather have the integrated ports, escape key, and SD card reader.
I was checking out the geekbench scores for the 2015 vs 2017. The speed difference was negligible based on same clock speeds.
Although I will admit the one cable charge/ docking feature is compelling, but magsafe is even nicer. My dog knocks out our charging cables 2-3 times a day. Imagine if one laptop hit the floor? Magsafe pays for itself (value). As for the bandwidth of the TB3 port, the only time you'd need it is if you're running an eGPU or monster displays. Regarding the eGPU, if you're running it on an external display, TB2/ TB3 has no effect on frame rates:
https://egpu.io/forums/mac-setup/pcie-slot-dgpu-vs-thunderbolt-3-egpu-internal-display-test/
All that said, I won't buy the 2016/2017 model based on the keyboard reliability alone. What happens when your AppleCare runs out? The cost to replace the assembly is going to be super expensive, maybe not even worth it. You could try to sell it before then (as suggested to me), but anyone Mac savvy will know to avoid them and buy whatever new laptop is out at that time (hopefully with a reliable keyboard). This depreciates your laptop which again, is worse value. If dust gets in the keys and causes it to fail, you have to take it in for repairs which costs you time (time=money=bad value).
I was checking out the geekbench scores for the 2015 vs 2017. The speed difference was negligible based on same clock speeds.
Although I will admit the one cable charge/ docking feature is compelling, but magsafe is even nicer. My dog knocks out our charging cables 2-3 times a day. Imagine if one laptop hit the floor? Magsafe pays for itself (value). As for the bandwidth of the TB3 port, the only time you'd need it is if you're running an eGPU or monster displays. Regarding the eGPU, if you're running it on an external display, TB2/ TB3 has no effect on frame rates:
https://egpu.io/forums/mac-setup/pcie-slot-dgpu-vs-thunderbolt-3-egpu-internal-display-test/
All that said, I won't buy the 2016/2017 model based on the keyboard reliability alone. What happens when your AppleCare runs out? The cost to replace the assembly is going to be super expensive, maybe not even worth it. You could try to sell it before then (as suggested to me), but anyone Mac savvy will know to avoid them and buy whatever new laptop is out at that time (hopefully with a reliable keyboard). This depreciates your laptop which again, is worse value. If dust gets in the keys and causes it to fail, you have to take it in for repairs which costs you time (time=money=bad value).
I think there is a bit of "missing the forest for the trees" here. While the 2017 may well be faster than the 2015, the difference for your described uses will be invisible - and thus meaningless. Put another way, you would not be able to tell the difference in speed even with a stopwatch. The focus on synthetic speed benchmarks also completely misses the livability of the 2015, which is significantly higher than the 2017, as it does not suffer from an oversized trackpad, unreliable keyboard, frivolous touchbar, inconsistent port connectivity with the real world, etc.
For most people, the 2015 design is easier to live with, requiring less user adaptation. Hence, the putative "advantages" of the 2017 are, today, in point of fact, meaningless.
That said, fair enough on your last quoted statement. "Worth" is an entirely subjective term.
For me, half a kg or 500 grams, is a big difference.
So is a machine that is a lot thinner.
In bright light, the screen is better too - 300 v 500 nits.
The oversized trackpad is not a negative issue for me. At all. 4 finger swiping from app to app its a decided advantage.
Intel Kaby Lake CPU codes 10-bit 4K HEVC and 4K VP9 video.
Super fast log on via the almost instance finger reader which has click feedback.
The SSD is heaps faster.
USB C+ means I can buy external drives much more cheaply, that still work OK. I've got three other USB+ devices that I had before I bought the 2017. Life is much easier with USB3+. I recall people complaining bitterly about the new reversible Lightning cable for the ISO devices ... fact is Apple had to go to a better more convenient connection. My surprise is that Apple has not switched Lightning for a USB3+ format. Old USB sucks, its terrible. And gone for anything decent.
Thunderbolt 3 is costly, but its powerful. There's no comparison to old USB with its inconvenient and slow attachments.
And who cares about Mag charging; one can buy them too for USBC+, but really, most HP and lots of other brands have ben charging themselves with USB3+ for ages ... the plugs can handle it. And anyhow, the 2017 has four of 'em. Its nice to be able to charge too on the right hand side.
The touch bar is something you have to experience. Its not frivolous at all - its actually very convenient and aids heaps of things. Its also a great source of communication with the hard and software. But if you run around in the jungle and decry it as being frivolous, well, its a bit like someone who lives in the jungle saying that a radio is not as good as a newspaper. If he came to somewhere that has radio stations broadcasting, he might change his mind. But hey he can still read a newspaper.
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We're all very happy you like your 2017.
I've now disposed of mine and returned to a 2014. The 2016/17 design is a bridge too far.
I've now disposed of mine and returned to a 2014. The 2016/17 design is a bridge too far.
Just buy a windows laptop. You can get so many great windows laptops for a mere fraction of the price. I can't think of one thing I can't do on a windows laptop that I can do on the Mac. If you have an iPhone, Windows plays well with it anyway.
My 2016 MacBook's Keyboard has been a nightmare. My 2013 MacBook Retina had stain gate. The 2016 MacBook will be my last.
My 2016 MacBook's Keyboard has been a nightmare. My 2013 MacBook Retina had stain gate. The 2016 MacBook will be my last.
Us Mac mini people have been dealing with this for years. Paying a premium for outdated hardware just so we can stay in the "Eco system".
Seems something very wrong here. I just got my refurb last week and it was well packed in a white box with different trays holding the MacBook and the accessories . It, to me , was in perfect condition and looked brand new. Just that foam packaging looks very odd.
edit: also, I had ordered the base mid 2015 for US $1699 and received the 2.8 Ghz model instead of the 2.2. I believe Apple has always been top notch on refurbs. Hope they fix you up.
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I pondered about that idea last year after the 2016 MBP announcement. The MBP direction was clearly not meant for me, but after looking at Windows alternatives, as nice as they are on paper, I am still convinced that the ease of use and cohesion of the macOS (together with iOS) ecosystem is still a beneficial if not critical element of my setups. Then I proceeded to buy a refurb maxed out 2015 15" instead, and later this year got a 27" iMac as well. Together with a TB3 RAID enclosure, TB3 dock, I am investing 2x-3x more than I would have on a beastly custom PC and a generic Win10 laptop just to get the same I/O and performance. I am happy with what I have now, and know that I am well served for a few years down, but the economical equation is getting less and less convincing every year.
I don't disagree with your logic and reasoning regarding price and model difference, however I will disagree with your TouchBar comment.
It is not gimmicky. It works quite well actually and I find myself using it for shortcuts literally all the time. And the keyboard? I have a 2015 MacBook Pro and I have the 2017 TouchBar 15"... the keyboard is much, much better and feels more natural and comfortable on the 2017 model. Have you used one of the new ones? And not just in an Apple Store, but actually used one for a period of time and regular use? I find it worlds ahead of their previous MBP keyboard and the TouchBar only makes it better IMO.
Again, I agree with your logic regarding the price difference. But don't hate on the new machine because it's expensive and Apple won't lower the cost of the older model. Just saying!
Cheers
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This is an unusual experience for refurbished Apple products. I have purchased many refurbished items before and they generally come in Apple boxes (not brand new packaging boxes but plain white boxes matching new ones but with not pictures and only grey text stating what the product is and that it's refurbished). I haven't gotten anything just in a brown box before with foam; that is strange. Anything refurbished I have gotten from Apple has essentially seemed to me for all intents and purposes brand-spanking-new, which often made me wonder if they go to such lengths to make the products look so new, why not sell them as such lol.
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This is subjective you are correct. There are many reasons that I upgraded my 2015 to the 2017 model:
- 3.1GHz i7
- 2TB SSD (not available on 2015 and a necessity for an on-the-go photographer)
- 4GB Radeon Pro 560
Those three upgrades alone make this computer better for me for performance computing. I also may be an outsider here but I love the TouchBar, and not in a fanboy-ish way, but for the many photography apps I use there are very useful keyboard shortcuts that I can just tap on right on the TouchBar. TouchID? Not necessary but nice to have. And the keyboard. I see lots of hate on here for it. But damn, for a longtime MacBook Pro user this is my favorite keyboard since pre-unibody MBP's, and possibly even better than that (remember the old silver computer-matching keyboard keys? Those were my reigning favorite until the 2017 model.).
Anyway, to each their own, and what is worth it to one may not be worth it to another - same thing goes with "nice to have" (like the TouchBar, TouchID, and keyboard for myself) versus "need to have" (those things I mentioned are not in and of themselves necessary to improve my ability to do the work I do).
Cheers
FYI, the Radeon dGPU will not show in “About This Mac” unless it’s being actively used. This confused me too, but if you start up Photos, you should see the dGPU show up in About... also, gfxcardstatus from gfx.io is a great little utility to control which GPU gets used by your laptop, in case you want maximum battery life while away from a power supply.
Dongles, that is my issue with the touchbar models. Can’t use my existing mini-DisplayPort dongle with the 16/17 model. I’d have to get an Ethernet dongle, a flash drive dongle, another lightning cable that is USB-C, and maybe another one I can’t think of right now. Plus I can’t upgrade the storage capacity.
With a refurb 2015, yeah it’s a few processor generations behind, but it’s much more configurable. It’s only an iGPU, but I don’t do anything with photography and video editing. Probably the heaviest thing I do is run a windows VM every now and then. To each their own. As for the OP’s issue, sounds like you got screwed by the shipper.
With a refurb 2015, yeah it’s a few processor generations behind, but it’s much more configurable. It’s only an iGPU, but I don’t do anything with photography and video editing. Probably the heaviest thing I do is run a windows VM every now and then. To each their own. As for the OP’s issue, sounds like you got screwed by the shipper.
True but if it's not actively being used you can just open system profiler, go to graphics, and you'll see it listed right there if there is a dGPU.
I would love to go back to a PC for the great selection of hardware. However, as much as Windows 10 is a great improvement over other versions of Windows, the suite of apps that comes with MacOS or that you can get for MacOS can't be beat especially for the creative professional. I think many of us would go to PC hardware if we could run MacOS on it. Apple has us by the short and curlies.
[doublepost=1510387256][/doublepost]You're right, I don't hate the touch bar, but I hate not having function keys and and escape key. I'd be fine with a touch bar, but put it up closer to the screen above the function keys and escape key. Have both and please both camps.
[doublepost=1510388020][/doublepost]Why would you go for a $1200 2TB upgrade? Why not have 1TB and get a TB3 SSB hard drive?
Thanks.
Yeh, I did the "About This Mac", and when I saw the "Graphics Intel HD Graphics 630 1536 MB" I did think it strange. I then went to "Displays" and it added the Resolution; but no mention of the GPU. Then I tried "System Report - PIC - which is where you find your screen cards on my Mac Pro. The report said:
"This computer doesn't contain any PCI cards or devices. If you installed or connected, a PCI card or device, make sure they’re properly installed."
Then I thought ... heck, maybe this cards faulty? But I then tried:
Graphics/Displays - and it turned up ... Radeon Pro 560 ... GPU ... PCIe. Hmmm I thought - the computer reckons if there is a PCI card installed - its not done properly. I guess its there, but not operational, as others have said.
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Yeh, I liked the function keys (although the hitting the fn key (bottom left) pulls up the function keys. The problem is, you need to leave your finger on the fn key to hit a function key, because they disappear when you lift off the fn key. They should have put in a time delay between hating the fn key, and having the function keys stay on for two seconds or until you one of them. Anyhow I often use instead the 4 finger swipe on the touchpad - its moves between apps quicker than the function key method. I guess for some - having a method to restrict the touchable area of the touchpad would be another option Apple could have developed.
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