The Significance of Steam and Valve's Games for Mac

[rmbrown09]

Would you please elaborate on the benefits.

Reduce power consumption(useless),reduce heat output, smaller physical board, and (thereby) more space.

Allowing for something else to take up room, say a larger processor, or GPU.

More freed space and lower heat output means more space for a bigger piece of something else, and being able to handle it's heat requirements.

That and motherboard architecture needs a revamp. Its been the same since the 70's.

 

[myca]

Joke post? My 2008 Macbook runs HL2: Episode 2 (a more demanding Source version than HL2's) on high just fine under XP.

The source engine is pretty good at working on lower end GPUs, and is pretty scaleable.

Now try Crysis on max on your machine and you would have a meltdown

 

[rmbrown09]

The source engine is pretty good at working on lower end GPUs, and is pretty scaleable.

Now try Crysis on max on your machine and you would have a meltdown

Then again, 90% of computers would

 

[nxent]

i'm more excited about this than the ipad release.

 

[myca]

Then again, 90% of computers would

True, but one day I'll have it running at a fluid 120FPS on three monitors.

TBH I haven't even played it yet, got it in a Steam sale some time ago

 

[Clive At Five]

Student City.

I'm serious, Im the only person in the youth hostel with a desktop computer.

Okay, "business professionals, flash-gamers, and college students." Desktops are impractical in a college setting. I know this because I made the mistake of getting an iMac G4 (iLamp) for college. Two years later, I couldn't stand it anymore, so I bought a budget laptop to take to class with me.

.... so what would a "mini tower" be then?? Please read and think, then post.

"Please read and think, then post???" First of all, I'd like to justify my "immobile laptop" answer:

I've built two configurations, one a Mac Mini and the other a MacBook. Which one is which?

• 2.26GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor
• 3MB on-chip shared L2 cache running 1:1 with processor speed
• 1066MHz frontside bus
• 2GB (two 1GB SO-DIMMs) of 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM
• NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics processor with 256MB of DDR3 SDRAM shared with main memory
• 320GB Serial ATA hard disk drive
• Slot-loading SuperDrive with double-layer support

• 2.26GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor
• 3MB on-chip shared L2 cache running 1:1 with processor speed
• 1066MHz frontside bus
• 2GB (two 1GB SO-DIMMs) of 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM
• NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics processor with 256MB of DDR3 SDRAM shared with main memory
• 320GB Serial ATA hard disk drive
• Slot-loading SuperDrive with double-layer support

The answer is, of course, irrelevant because the specs are identical. The Mac Mini can only be considered a "desktop" because it is confined to your desk.

A proper Mini Tower (xMac) should have modular, desktop-class components:

• desktop-class CPU socket.
• two 3.5" HDD slots.
• at least two DRAM slots. (f*** SO-DIMMS!)
• PCIe x16 slot for a respectable GPU.
• an ODD bay.

And contrary to xMac nay-sayers, It could still have that Apple touch-of-beauty, just like the Mac Pro does.

Hell, if they made the iMac just a little thicker, they could easily make it modular and satisfy (most of) us mid-tower whiners once and for all.

-Clive

 

[rmbrown09]

Okay, "business professionals, flash-gamers, and college students." Desktops are impractical in a college setting. I know this because I made the mistake of getting an iMac G4 (iLamp) for college. Two years later, I couldn't stand it anymore, so I bought a budget laptop to take to class with me.



"Please read and think, then post???" First of all, I'd like to justify my "immobile laptop" answer:

I've built two configurations, one a Mac Mini and the other a MacBook. Which one is which?





The answer is, of course, irrelevant because the specs are identical. The Mac Mini can only be considered a "desktop" because it is confined to your desk.

A proper Mini Tower (xMac) should have modular, desktop-class components:

• desktop-class CPU socket.
• two 3.5" HDD slots.
• at least two DRAM slots. (f*** SO-DIMMS!)
• PCIe x16 slot for a respectable GPU.
• an ODD bay.

And contrary to xMac nay-sayers, It could still have that Apple touch-of-beauty, just like the Mac Pro does.

Hell, if they made the iMac just a little thicker, they could easily make it modular and satisfy (most of) us mid-tower whiners once and for all.

-Clive

Basically you wan't a Mac Pro, that isn't so expensive, that you can build and customize like a PC desktop....

This is Apple. They don't do that kind of thing.

 

[myca]

A proper Mini Tower (xMac) should have modular, desktop-class components:

• desktop-class CPU socket.
• two 3.5" HDD slots.
• at least two DRAM slots. (f*** SO-DIMMS!)
• PCIe x16 slot for a respectable GPU.
• an ODD bay.

And contrary to xMac nay-sayers, It could still have that Apple touch-of-beauty, just like the Mac Pro does.

Hell, if they made the iMac just a little thicker, they could easily make it modular and satisfy (most of) us mid-tower whiners once and for all.

-Clive

Ah I wish, I agree that there is a market, but Apple don't agree with me.

That's why I built me one of them there hackintosh machines, once you hack you never turn back.

Although funds permitting, and hopefully a decent Mac Pro refresh, may see me purchase a new mac this year; the hackintosh can then be relegated to gaming pursuits.

 

[Glueeater]

Joke post? My 2008 Macbook runs HL2: Episode 2 (a more demanding Source version than HL2's) on high just fine under XP.

Agreed. I've run TF2 on low-medium settings using Parallels…on my 9400m.

 

[Clive At Five]

Reduce power consumption(useless),reduce heat output, smaller physical board, and (thereby) more space.

Allowing for something else to take up room, say a larger processor, or GPU.

More freed space and lower heat output means more space for a bigger piece of something else, and being able to handle it's heat requirements.

That and motherboard architecture needs a revamp. Its been the same since the 70's.

You can't just drop an i7 in any old board. It's a smaller form-factor because it cuts corners other desktop boards do not. Likewise, you will not be able to plug an NVIDIA 480 GTX or any other GPU of respectable spec. into it, as SFF boards almost always have on-board graphics in lieu of PCIe slots.

-Clive

 

[rmbrown09]

You can't just drop an i7 in any old board. It's a smaller form-factor because it cuts corners other desktop boards do not. Likewise, you will not be able to plug an NVIDIA 480 GTX or any other GPU of respectable spec. into it, as SFF boards almost always have on-board graphics in lieu of PCIe slots.

-Clive

Lol, I saw that pic of the 480, that sucker is longer than the mini itself.

 

[Revelation78]

Here we go again...



HAH. Good one. The Mac Mini is an immobile laptop.



What planet are you living on? Business professionals and flash-gamers use laptops because their computing needs are easily met by those systems. A MacBook's GPU, however, would barely handle Half Life 2 on low settings and how many years old is that game?

-Clive

Well Clive, you have no clue what you're talking about. I run HL2, HL2 ep 1&2, L4D 1&2, Far Cry2, Dead Space, Batman Arkhum Asylum, BattleField BC2 all just fine on my late 2008 MBP.

Since you are either clueless or an idiot, pleas refrain from speaking as if you know what you are talking about.

 

[InfoSecmgr]

How about most people don't really care about playing the latest & greatest of every single game? How about they just want to be a casual player of these games like 90% of those who actually play any games?

That pretty much sums it up. Hardcore gamers represent a tiny fraction of gamers...

 

[rmbrown09]

Well Clive, you have no clue what you're talking about. I run HL2, HL2 ep 1&2, L4D 1&2, Far Cry2, Dead Space, Batman Arkhum Asylum, BattleField BC2 all just fine on my late 2008 MBP.

Since you are either clueless or an idiot, pleas refrain from speaking as if you know what you are talking about.

Good call, I didn't even read that far into his post. He really doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'm on a mid 2009 MBP 2.8, I run HL2 max settings and resolution, over 60 FPS mostly.

Tons of other games run great as well. (any source engine game) MW2, Dead Space, RTCW, etc

 

[Clive At Five]

Basically you wan't a Mac Pro, that isn't so expensive, that you can build and customize like a PC desktop....

This is Apple. They don't do that kind of thing.

No, the MacPro uses server-class components... I want an iMac with desktop graphics, and where "upgrade" doesn't involve replacing the entire unit.

Ah I wish, I agree that there is a market, but Apple don't agree with me.

That's why I built me one of them there hackintosh machines, once you hack you never turn back.

Although funds permitting, and hopefully a decent Mac Pro refresh, may see me purchase a new mac this year; the hackintosh can then be relegated to gaming pursuits.

I, too, built a Hackintosh, and I love it. Even though I did purchase a copy of OS X, I would prefer to use a non-EULA-infringing way to use OS X with a hardware profile that meets my needs as a user.

Agreed. I've run TF2 on low-medium settings using Parallels…on my 9400m.

I was thinking of the X3100 integrated GPU, forgot that it was upped to nVIDIA last year. Not a joke post, I just typically ignore MacBook news. Call it ignorance o). I think a firm case still stands, though, that you won't get desktop-class GPU results or longevity out of a mobile GPU. They can play this year's games and most of next year's games, but after that, it's a crap-shoot.

-Clive

 

[InfoSecmgr]

Well Clive, you have no clue what you're talking about. I run HL2, HL2 ep 1&2, L4D 1&2, Far Cry2, Dead Space, Batman Arkhum Asylum, BattleField BC2 all just fine on my late 2008 MBP.

Since you are either clueless or an idiot, pleas refrain from speaking as if you know what you are talking about.

Eh, I don't know about running them "just fine". Look, I'm not taking anyones side here, I'm just saying that I had to build a pretty darned speedy PC rig to play the new games at 60 fps on high settings...and even then they drop into the 30's sometimes.

3GHz Phenom II quad core
4GB of RAM
9800GTX+ w/512 MB vRAM

Using my MacBook with the 9400m (I don't know what you've got), I can run Doom 3 (which is what, 5 years old or so?) at around ~30-45 fps on medium settings.

 

[Paulyboy]

This is big news but it won't change the Mac's position in the gaming world. But it should improve things in the Mac gaming world - how much is yet to be seen. So with that said I'm not sure why anybody would bash this news? I mean at the very least it's going to mean a few more games for the Mac that wouldn't have otherwise existed and another well-regarded outlet to purchase games. How is that bad?

Here's my guess as to how this will play out. Valve natively ported the source engine to the Mac and decided they wanted to use Steam as the primary distribution method. All the other things like chat, leaderboards, and multiplayer will come with it. A few other publishers, like Telltale, will be on board from the start. These publishers will already have Mac versions of their games. So the Mac section will be significantly smaller than the PC section and separate, although hopefully they figured out a way to do multiplayer so Mac users can play PC users.

Because Steam is such a great distribution platform in time a few other publishers will enter the Mac market, using it as the primary distribution method for their games. I'm thinking most of these bandwagon publishers will go the Cider route. So overall this will certainly increase the number of Mac games available and make it easy to find and purchase them.

If this move ends up being reasonably successful it might convince Apple to at least put better GPU's in their Macs. But I think that's as far as Apple's involvement would go, which means no I don't think Apple has anything to do with this.

So while the Mac will never catch up to PCs and consoles when it comes to gaming there's no reason why this development shouldn't at least improve the Mac gaming situation at least a little and perhaps a lot more than a little.

Once again how is that a bad thing?

-PN

 

[rmbrown09]

No, the MacPro uses server-class components... I want an iMac with desktop graphics, and where "upgrade" doesn't involve replacing the entire unit.

-Clive

Like I said, you want what the Mac Pro can do (be upgraded) without the price... Otherwise you wouldn't be talking about this you would go buy a Mac Pro.

And, again, this is Apple, they don't do this kind of thing.

Get one of these and fulfill your plug in desires.
http://www.ibuypower.com/Store/Configurators.aspx?mid=375

 

[birch25]

if a game was built from the ground up for a Mac... i.e. no port/no cider whatsoever... surely the game would run a lot faster on the Mac if the exact same game and system was used on Windows... just find that OSX is much cleaner than Windows and much more simplified?

I actually find that every game I have played on OS X and Windows Xp/Vista/7 runs better on the Windows side. Also, while the OS X interface is cleaner than that of Windows, that doesn't mean that the code itself is "more simplified" (interestingly, a Windows 7 disk is 2.5 GB while Snow Leopard is 6 GB).

Also, DirectX 11 beats the pants off OpenGL in almost every regard.

dated, boring and over rated games like half life are not a threat to apple.

That's like saying The Godfather is dated, boring and overrated. You can say it but that is the point at which most people stop taking your opinion of movies seriously.

 

[myca]

I, too, built a Hackintosh, and I love it. Even though I did purchase a copy of OS X, I would prefer to use a non-EULA-infringing way to use OS X with a hardware profile that meets my needs as a user.
-Clive

Yep, I've been a good boy and got a legit purchased Snow Leopard too

In fact all my software is legit these days, the last pirated software I used was a cracked copy of Doom 3 on my PowerMac, because trying to get hold of it through retail was a nightmare, but since I resumed gaming on windows last year, I bought the id pack (on sale ) on Steam, hell I never would have downloaded it illegally if there had been a service like Steam on the mac at the time.

 

[myca]

Like I said, you want what the Mac Pro can do (be upgraded) without the price... Otherwise you wouldn't be talking about this you would go buy a Mac Pro.

And, again, this is Apple, they don't do this kind of thing.

I think you're misunderstanding the difference between a desktop computer and a workstation computer, the Mac Pro is a wonderful Workstation system, likewise the iMac is a fantastic all in one solution, but there is a middle ground which Apple do not (and probably never will) cater for.

It would be great if they offered a simple expandable headless desktop, but unless they can see clear profit in doing so (and it's argued that it would cannibalize both Mac Pro and iMac sales) it ain't gonna happen.

So for those like me who maybe don't need all that horsepower of a Mac Pro, and don't like all in ones little choice is left apart from building a hackintosh.

p.s. that system you linked to looks garish

 

[SPUY767]

The source engine is pretty good at working on lower end GPUs, and is pretty scaleable.

Now try Crysis on max on your machine and you would have a meltdown

Source, if written and optimized as well as Blizz did with the WoW engine, will likely outperform its counterparts on the PC. WoW runs at almost double the frame rate under Mac OS as it does under Windows on my machine. And the minimum frame rate that I see under Mac OS is much higher, typically 4x what I see under windows. My machine is a Mac Pro 2006 3.0 Dual Dual with 16 Gigs of ram and a 4870. Windows is a positively fresh install of Win 7 with nothing but Drivers and system updates installed. Mac OS is the latest update of SL, it's just my production machine, so it's filled with crap not related to the game itself. I guess that brings up an interesting point that a Mac will trounce a PC as far as slowdown based on installed components is concerned.

I actually find that every game I have played on OS X and Windows Xp/Vista/7 runs better on the Windows side. Also, while the OS X interface is cleaner than that of Windows, that doesn't mean that the code itself is "more simplified" (interestingly, a Windows 7 disk is 2.5 GB while Snow Leopard is 6 GB).

See the above. Most ports are shoddily done at best. WoW is the exception, not the rule.

 

[birch25]

Because kids where not violent before the game industry came into existence.

There have always and will always be violence in society, That is nature. Blaming it on a hobby you don't engage in yourself is pathetic.

Violent crime has actually dropped since the introduction of video games. Just saying.

Graph

 

[rmbrown09]

Violent crime has actually dropped since the introduction of video games. Just saying.

Graph

Just to make it easier

 

[Revelation78]

Eh, I don't know about running them "just fine". Look, I'm not taking anyones side here, I'm just saying that I had to build a pretty darned speedy PC rig to play the new games at 60 fps on high settings...and even then they drop into the 30's sometimes.

3GHz Phenom II quad core
4GB of RAM
9800GTX+ w/512 MB vRAM

Using my MacBook with the 9400m (I don't know what you've got), I can run Doom 3 (which is what, 5 years old or so?) at around ~30-45 fps on medium settings.

I use the 9600 in my MBP. I also have a custom PC I built:

Q6600 - overclocked to 3.2GHZ
8GB DDR3 Ram
GTX285 1GB

With all that said, YES, my MBP runs those games I mentioned earlier just fine. Can my PC run them better, without a doubt.