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sam_dean

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Sep 9, 2022
564
549


What the article failed to see is how big of a revolutionary change it was from Intel chip to Apple chip for the past 2+ years.

So I will list it down for you for your convenience
  • 2014-2020 14nm Intel chip (6 years) to Nov 2020-today 5nm Apple chip (2+ years)
  • Intel with low performance IGP vs Apple with high performance dGPU as an IGP
  • Intel chips with minority of ICs & functionality on chip that leads to latency increases and resources not being maximized to Apple chips with majority of ICs & functionality on chip so latency decreased and resources being maximized
  • Intel chips being power hogs & heat generators like a wall-powered desktop to Apple chips being power sipping & barely warm like a battery powered smartphone
Even in 2023 Intel has not sold any product that uses a 5nm process while Apple's already internally prototyping TSMC's 3nm process for use with the iPhone 15 Pro in Sep 2023 with a possible 3nm M3 chip by as early as Oct/Nov 2023 or as late as Jan 2024.
Apple leapfrogged Intel by 6 years of tech improvements and applying what Apple learned from smartphones into their laptops & desktops.

If you are concerned about efficiencies, performance per watt, power consumption and waste heat in your devices then you will buy Apple products.

If you are concerned about Windows programs, computer games & ease of repairs/upgrades then you will buy Intel/AMD products.

On my part I am jumping from a 2012 iMac 27" 22nm to a 2023 iMac 27" 5nm that I hope will be out by Jun 2023 during WWDC 2023.

What gets me excited from this upgrade isn't just the industrial design, raw performance and macOS Ventura that sings on Apple chips but the drop in power consumption from >200W to <100W for the same screen size but 2x the Retina resolution and less waste heat that adds load to my air-con that tries to maintain 24c.

It would have been awesome if the M2 family of chips was on 4nm or even 3nm but we will have to wait for the M3 for a 3nm chip.

I expect the performance to blow my mind.

Going forward Apple has leading die shrink process advantage over Intel/AMD/Qualcomm unless they fumble with the iPhone and cannot order out more than quarter billion iPhones chips annually.
 

russell_314

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2019
5,160
7,268
USA


What the article failed to see is how big of a revolutionary change it was from Intel chip to Apple chip for the past 2+ years.

So I will list it down for you for your convenience
  • 2014-2020 14nm Intel chip (6 years) to Nov 2020-today 5nm Apple chip (2+ years)
  • Intel with low performance IGP vs Apple with high performance dGPU as an IGP
  • Intel chips with minority of ICs & functionality on chip that leads to latency increases and resources not being maximized to Apple chips with majority of ICs & functionality on chip so latency decreased and resources being maximized
  • Intel chips being power hogs & heat generators like a wall-powered desktop to Apple chips being power sipping & barely warm like a battery powered smartphone
Even in 2023 Intel has not sold any product that uses a 5nm process while Apple's already internally prototyping TSMC's 3nm process for use with the iPhone 15 Pro in Sep 2023 with a possible 3nm M3 chip by as early as Oct/Nov 2023 or as late as Jan 2024.
Apple leapfrogged Intel by 6 years of tech improvements and applying what Apple learned from smartphones into their laptops & desktops.

If you are concerned about efficiencies, performance per watt, power consumption and waste heat in your devices then you will buy Apple products.
I agree with this. On a laptop it does make a difference. On a desktop maybe if you're environmentally conscious or have multiple computers running but I can't imagine saving much money compared to the other power hungry devices at home.

If you are concerned about Windows programs, computer games & ease of repairs/upgrades then you will buy Intel/AMD products.
I wish Apple would get into gaming. Ease of repair isn't guaranteed in a Windows laptop. Many lower end windows laptops have soldiered RAM chips. I think this is the future regardless of the OS.

On my part I am jumping from a 2012 iMac 27" 22nm to a 2023 iMac 27" 5nm that I hope will be out by Jun 2023 during WWDC 2023.
I hope you're right but I don't know if Apple is going to make a larger iMac with all the current economic and other issues going on. It would be risky to design and make something like this if it didn't sell. I suspect the starting price would be around 2k USD.

What gets me excited from this upgrade isn't just the industrial design, raw performance and macOS Ventura that sings on Apple chips but the drop in power consumption from >200W to <100W for the same screen size but 2x the Retina resolution and less waste heat that adds load to my air-con that tries to maintain 24c.

It would have been awesome if the M2 family of chips was on 4nm or even 3nm but we will have to wait for the M3 for a 3nm chip.

I expect the performance to blow my mind.
What are you doing where you think you're going to experience this mind blowing performance? Maybe if you edit video or run benchmarks but for what the average person does I think we've reached a plateau. Sure over a ten year old computer it's going to seem crazy fast but if I put an M1 and this M3 side by side I don't think I could tell them apart by doing things like opening a webpage, creating a MS Word doc or even scrolling through photos.
 

sam_dean

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Sep 9, 2022
564
549
I agree with this. On a laptop it does make a difference. On a desktop maybe if you're environmentally conscious or have multiple computers running but I can't imagine saving much money compared to the other power hungry devices at home.


I wish Apple would get into gaming. Ease of repair isn't guaranteed in a Windows laptop. Many lower end windows laptops have soldiered RAM chips. I think this is the future regardless of the OS.


I hope you're right but I don't know if Apple is going to make a larger iMac with all the current economic and other issues going on. It would be risky to design and make something like this if it didn't sell. I suspect the starting price would be around 2k USD.


What are you doing where you think you're going to experience this mind blowing performance? Maybe if you edit video or run benchmarks but for what the average person does I think we've reached a plateau. Sure over a ten year old computer it's going to seem crazy fast but if I put an M1 and this M3 side by side I don't think I could tell them apart by doing things like opening a webpage, creating a MS Word doc or even scrolling through photos.
My concern with higher efficiency is cost savings. Imagine saving 520 weeks of electric cost by having all your devices today be 5nm or better.

macOS as a gaming platform would require Apple to provide incentives to game developers. Apple provided tools so it is easier to port iPadOS & iOS apps to macOS but there are some bottlenecks they have no addressed like support to port games using Direct X, Vulkan, etc easily to Metal.

After 2+ years there are native games for Apple Silicon but it is currently a trickle. Game devs need a compelling business case to put any money into Mac development as the demand is tepid. But much higher than any iPhone mini. ;-)

Last iMac 27" base model had a starting price of $1999 in 2020. So odds are that will be the starting price of a iMac 27" replacement. When I say replacement it does not mean it will be 27" again but it could be 32" 6K display.

Time scale between M1 & M3 is more than 3 years apart? Typical replacement cycle Apple expects for macOS devices is four years.

I'm moving from a currently 517 week old iMac with a 22nm chip to a year 2023 model iMac with a 5nm chip.

It will be night and day. From a SSD that is <0.5GB/s to >5.0GB/s
 
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heath_durbin

macrumors member
Sep 21, 2015
54
16


What the article failed to see is how big of a revolutionary change it was from Intel chip to Apple chip for the past 2+ years.

So I will list it down for you for your convenience
  • 2014-2020 14nm Intel chip (6 years) to Nov 2020-today 5nm Apple chip (2+ years)
  • Intel with low performance IGP vs Apple with high performance dGPU as an IGP
  • Intel chips with minority of ICs & functionality on chip that leads to latency increases and resources not being maximized to Apple chips with majority of ICs & functionality on chip so latency decreased and resources being maximized
  • Intel chips being power hogs & heat generators like a wall-powered desktop to Apple chips being power sipping & barely warm like a battery powered smartphone
Even in 2023 Intel has not sold any product that uses a 5nm process while Apple's already internally prototyping TSMC's 3nm process for use with the iPhone 15 Pro in Sep 2023 with a possible 3nm M3 chip by as early as Oct/Nov 2023 or as late as Jan 2024.
Apple leapfrogged Intel by 6 years of tech improvements and applying what Apple learned from smartphones into their laptops & desktops.

If you are concerned about efficiencies, performance per watt, power consumption and waste heat in your devices then you will buy Apple products.

If you are concerned about Windows programs, computer games & ease of repairs/upgrades then you will buy Intel/AMD products.

On my part I am jumping from a 2012 iMac 27" 22nm to a 2023 iMac 27" 5nm that I hope will be out by Jun 2023 during WWDC 2023.

What gets me excited from this upgrade isn't just the industrial design, raw performance and macOS Ventura that sings on Apple chips but the drop in power consumption from >200W to <100W for the same screen size but 2x the Retina resolution and less waste heat that adds load to my air-con that tries to maintain 24c.

It would have been awesome if the M2 family of chips was on 4nm or even 3nm but we will have to wait for the M3 for a 3nm chip.

I expect the performance to blow my mind.

Going forward Apple has leading die shrink process advantage over Intel/AMD/Qualcomm unless they fumble with the iPhone and cannot order out more than quarter billion iPhones chips annually.
I think its great technicalogical leap, but for the average user, means nothing. Esaplicy due the the loss of apps and features... for example with the security features on my Konica Minolta printer, we can't print color with the new OS.
 

sam_dean

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Sep 9, 2022
564
549
I think its great technicalogical leap, but for the average user, means nothing. Esaplicy due the the loss of apps and features... for example with the security features on my Konica Minolta printer, we can't print color with the new OS.
What's the model of your printer?
 

heath_durbin

macrumors member
Sep 21, 2015
54
16
Screen Shot 2023-01-22 at 7.53.57 PM.png

What's the model of your printer?
C650i
C558
C364e
C454

All 4 have the same issue, to print color you must active "public user" (This is to reduce accidental and unauthorized color prints.)

Both KMBS and Apple have not made it so you can select public user on the new OS. (like wise, can't print color from my iPhone, because it lacks this option.)
 

sam_dean

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Sep 9, 2022
564
549
C650i
C558
C364e
C454

All 4 have the same issue, to print color you must active "public user" (This is to reduce accidental and unauthorized color prints.)

Both KMBS and Apple have not made it so you can select public user on the new OS. (like wise, can't print color from my iPhone, because it lacks this option.)
I suspect KMBS is unaware that there any Apple users that use their printers.

You may want to shoot them an email about your concern.
 

heath_durbin

macrumors member
Sep 21, 2015
54
16
I suspect KMBS is unaware that there any Apple users that use their printers.

You may want to shoot them an email about your concern.
I complain to the repair men all the time. But you are right, I probably need to send an email somewhere up the chain.

When we first started using Konica Minolta multipurpose machines, the C450, I had to teach their installers how to set it up on a Mac. (And then they got much better) Lucky, they have always had the drivers for MAC, just the local people are not as familiar with it.
 

v0lume4

macrumors 68020
Jul 28, 2012
2,118
4,355
Apple was using Intel, not AMD, so I understand that is why people always talk about the process node advantage. Fair enough. But AMD exists, and has been eating Intel’s lunch for years. They have their chips made by the exact same supplier that Apple does. AMD is on 5nm right now.

I find it curious that AMD is seldom brought up in the discussion when talking about process node advantages. Matter of fact, their lower powered APU’s are efficient enough to put into handhelds (Steam Deck, et al.).

Just a curious observation. It’s like a lot of people forget AMD exists. Even the author of that article.
 

sam_dean

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Sep 9, 2022
564
549
I complain to the repair men all the time. But you are right, I probably need to send an email somewhere up the chain.

When we first started using Konica Minolta multipurpose machines, the C450, I had to teach their installers how to set it up on a Mac. (And then they got much better) Lucky, they have always had the drivers for MAC, just the local people are not as familiar with it.
Reminds me of our 1st ADSL connection back in 2000. I had to teach the telco's tech how to use OS9 and the PPPoE Mac app. Good times..
 

sam_dean

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Sep 9, 2022
564
549
Apple was using Intel, not AMD, so I understand that is why people always talk about the process node advantage. Fair enough. But AMD exists, and has been eating Intel’s lunch for years. They have their chips made by the exact same supplier that Apple does. AMD is on 5nm right now.

I find it curious that AMD is seldom brought up in the discussion when talking about process node advantages. Matter of fact, their lower powered APU’s are efficient enough to put into handhelds (Steam Deck, et al.).

Just a curious observation. It’s like a lot of people forget AMD exists. Even the author of that article.
AMD is not mentioned as they never did meaningful CPU business with Apple.

The publication is an Apple magazine so why even bring up AMD which Apple has not done new business with for 2+ years.

AMD was not chosen as it is speculated that they could not accommodate all of Apple's demands and did not have Intel's resources.

Problem with Intel is odds are they stuck to 14nm process node for 6+ years to save on cost.

They sent out BS reasons why they could not move to 10nm before 2021 as they locked in all PC makers from Apple to HP.

When Apple left them then that's when they moved to 10nm because competition is back again.

Internally in my organization we only buy Ryzen ThinkPads for the 7nm chips. When we have a need of another $700 Thinkpad E14 or E15 laptop then I hope it is a 5nm chip.

My concern is improving efficiencies whether it be performance per watt, raw performance or reducing heat waste.

Intel lacks this... they're more of a desktop chip company than a laptop chip company.
 

v0lume4

macrumors 68020
Jul 28, 2012
2,118
4,355
AMD is not mentioned as they never did meaningful CPU business with Apple.

The publication is an Apple magazine so why even bring up AMD which Apple has not done new business with for 2+ years.

AMD was not chosen as it is speculated that they could not accommodate all of Apple's demands and did not have Intel's resources.

Problem with Intel is odds are they stuck to 14nm process node for 6+ years to save on cost.

They sent out BS reasons why they could not move to 10nm before 2021 as they locked in all PC makers from Apple to HP.

When Apple left them then that's when they moved to 10nm because competition is back again.

Internally in my organization we only buy Ryzen ThinkPads for the 7nm chips. When we have a need of another $700 Thinkpad E14 or E15 laptop then I hope it is a 5nm chip.

My concern is improving efficiencies whether it be performance per watt, raw performance or reducing heat waste.

Intel lacks this... they're more of a desktop chip company than a laptop chip company.
Indeed. I for one wish Apple was doing business with AMD right now. But that’s me. Maybe one day.

Intel rested on their laurels for so long. It was glorious to see AMD leapfrog them and stay competitive ever since. Intel’s recent desktop chips are pretty great with performance but holy moly would I never want something even close to that in a laptop (power and heat). AMD’s Ryzen 7000 for laptops sound ridiculously promising. You probably saw that recent article here on MR where they’re saying up to 30 hour battery life and 30% faster performance than the M1 Pro (or was it the Max? I can’t remember).

How do you like those ThinkPads? How are the keyboards nowadays? They’ve slowly reduced the key travel over the years right? ThinkPad keyboards used to be the GOATs.
 

sam_dean

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Sep 9, 2022
564
549
Indeed. I for one wish Apple was doing business with AMD right now. But that’s me. Maybe one day.

Intel rested on their laurels for so long. It was glorious to see AMD leapfrog them and stay competitive ever since. Intel’s recent desktop chips are pretty great with performance but holy moly would I never want something even close to that in a laptop (power and heat). AMD’s Ryzen 7000 for laptops sound ridiculously promising. You probably saw that recent article here on MR where they’re saying up to 30 hour battery life and 30% faster performance than the M1 Pro (or was it the Max? I can’t remember).

How do you like those ThinkPads? How are the keyboards nowadays? They’ve slowly reduced the key travel over the years right? ThinkPad keyboards used to be the GOATs.
Last ThinkPad assigned to me was a 1999 ThinkPad E390(?). Next laptop was a 2001 iBook G3 and other Mac laptops until now.

We assigned these cheap laptops to subordinates. They like them better than the Asus or Lenovo Ideapad laptops. My IT techs like em because its easier to fix.

Head to head I doubt on the same node I doubt AMD can outperform Apple simply because they aren't that aggressive with their SoC strategy as they have to create chips for a wider PC OEM customers. Apple's chips are designed to their exacting specific needs.
 
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dwaltwhit

Contributor
Oct 25, 2013
983
1,728
Tennessee
The leap from M1 to M2 is not too terribly important to most users because M1 owners are not the target demo for M2 purchase; that target demo would be both intel mac owners and PC owners. What is the average lifespan of a Mac? For me its right around a decade-- sometimes longer. If there is data out there, I'd love to see it, but my guess would be 6-7 years.
 

Philip Turner

macrumors member
Dec 7, 2021
93
64
I wish Apple would get into gaming.
macOS as a gaming platform would require Apple to provide incentives to game developers.
I don't think you realize how big of a deal Metal 3 is. Also, Apple (maybe) added hardware acceleration for Unreal Engine Nanite to their M2. They want this hardware used for gaming, especially since the AR/VR headset is part of their ecosystem. I advise reading up on how hard they tried (and unfortunately failed) with A16. They would have been the first company with:
  • A mobile GPU with hardware ray tracing. Qualcomm now holds that title.
  • A GPU with ray sorting and reordering for greater (power) efficiency. Nvidia now holds that title.
 

sam_dean

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Sep 9, 2022
564
549
The leap from M1 to M2 is not too terribly important to most users because M1 owners are not the target demo for M2 purchase; that target demo would be both intel mac owners and PC owners. What is the average lifespan of a Mac? For me its right around a decade-- sometimes longer. If there is data out there, I'd love to see it, but my guess would be 6-7 years.
Per Apple: 4 years
Per Intel: 5-6 years
Per Me: 10 years until the last macOS/Windows Security Update
 
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sam_dean

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Sep 9, 2022
564
549
Microsoft is moving to Arm too. Intel knows they’re in big trouble and have less than two years to get their act together before Dell and Microsoft move to Arm.

Windows on ARM has been rather stagnant. They aren't moving at a pace that Apple did with moving from Intel to Apple chips.

When Microsoft/Qualcomm/ARM figures how to accelerate to the pace of Apple then Intel/AMD will end up depending on legacy support as their selling point.

Android chips are at a node more advance than AMD.
 
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