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Sydde

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2009
2,422
6,969
IOKWARDI
First, Windows on ARM is still a work in progress. And MS cannot be like Apple that can just ditch any backward compatibility.
Second, imo performance of Qualcomm chips are still behind. For a transition, emulation is inevitable, and to be able to do that, your SoC must have the performance overhead. Apple magically did it with their M1. I don't think even the Snapdragon 8Gen 1 is sufficient.
Obviously, Apple handled the last two transitions not so much with emulation as with straight across translation, meaning the old code code is effectively running almost native – 68K to PPC could be done with emulation because the performace gulf was that wide, but these later ones needed better.

About 8 or 10 years back, there was a company (VIA, I think it was) that had a processor that could run x86 or ARM natively, but it was only 32-bit (on at least the ARM side, maybe both). Given the way x86 is run, it seems reasonable that such a beast could be made, but it would have to be optimized for one side and probably not so much the other. But if translation (like Rosetta) can produce code that runs as well as what Apple has done, a hybrid would be all but pointless. All that matters is whether MS decides to go all-in.
 

tomaz-otpn

macrumors newbie
Sep 30, 2022
1
0
My laptop is nearing 10-years old. Thus I'm starting to do some research on any potential new computer purchase. The problem is, I feel like currently we are in the worst time to buy a new computer. I feel that we are at the tail end of x86. And unlike phones, I expect my computer to last for around 10 years, not 4 or 5.

Problem 1: Windows 11
As expected, my Windows 10 laptop is not eligible for Windows 11 because it doesn't have a supported processor. Problem is, Microsoft drew a really harsh line on processor requirements, with minimum being 8th gen intel, which were just released in 2018. That's just three years ago. Sure, Windows 10 is supported until 2025. However, it begs the question whether an x86 computer I buy today would even be supported on a future version of Windows 5 years from now. Highly suspect. Of course, coincidentally 2018 is roughly the first batch of Snapdragon supporting Windows 10 SoCs. With Microsoft themselves doing their own ARM chips, to me Windows 11 is akin of the "Big Sur" of Windows, aka it's a telltale of Microsoft' transition to ARM, by quickly abandoning anything 4 years or older x86 processors. It really begs the question if buying a Windows computer today (which are not cheap thanks to the shortages), a good idea if the whole x86 platform is being left behind?

Problem 2: intel
We know intel's lackluster performance per watt, although they boosted their performance a bit with the 11th gen. But what if intel themselves are ditching x86? Intel is acquiring SiFive. That's a huge hint of intel themselves are transitioning. Of course, the problem for a consumer is that today, intel is still making x86 processors. But it's not a good feeling when you bought an expensive laptop, and see the processor manufacturer itself abandoning the architecture mere years after. Then you add the Windows anxiety above.

Problem 3: the rest are moving to ARM
nVidia is acquiring ARM. That's obvious. Qualcomm is doubling down on their Windows supporting SoCs. Even AMD is rumored to have ARM processors in the making. And of course, we have Apple, the first in line.

So why I think it's the worst time to buy a computer (that I want to last and supported for 10 years or so)? As a consumer, I feel:
- right now, I see expensive x86 laptops at the tail end of the architecture
- consumer ARM solutions for Windows is not yet here, so we are in a transition vacuum
- looking at Apple, also expensive, they only have the M1 ready at this point, and Apple is known to drop support of machines more aggressively

It's obvious that Microsoft's stringent Windows 11 system requirements is to nudge people to buy new computers. But as a more tech savvier consumer, now I feel that I would need to hold on to my old PCs even longer to wait for the ARM transition instead of wasting money on a dead-end x86 architecture. 🙃:confused: Here's hoping my laptop is not dying anytime soon.
Hello ian! I agree with you I am a developer and even tech is changing in great ways... I am choosing a laptop too for my company and what I resolved is:

1 - Ryzen 7 for desktop is worth it, a dedicated card like GTX 1650 is enough for now, I play on PC only Guild Wars 2 but Ryzen because AMD multithreading... 16Gb is necessary and like you said high computers coming with 8Gb and many laptops are coming with 8Gb being 4Gb fixed in the motherboard is a shame see such architecture to upgrade you need to put 8Gb to get 12 (+4 fixed), or 16Gb for max 20gb

"Notebook Aspire 5 A515-45G-R46X R7 RX640" like this one.​

Kit Notebook Gamer Acer Nitro 5 AN515-44-R4KA R7 GTX1650 + Notebook Aspire 5 A515-45G-R46X R7 RX640​

obs.: I found this both in a worth combo and waiting approval from manager. The Ryzen on them is Ryzen 7 4800H and Ryzen serie 6000H is already in Dell notebooks but in huge value. The Nitro from combo comes with 8Gb too but one channel then one more 8Gb to get him 16Gb.

2 - Ryzen 7 desktop will be the main. Notebooks combo Acer will be bought if value fill what needs to. ARM is something that is happening here, and things are changing a lot... A desktop is better for now because minor price and better configurations, if need a something mobile in such an urgency I do recommend Ryzen 7 yet but more easily because things is changing and Dell with Ryzen 7 series 6000 came in high price at least here in my country Brazil and ARM is gaining a lot of terrain in competition ... Even in tech, today we work with SvelteKit in FullStack using vanilla JavaScript, CSS with new browsers changing quickly, and making things easy, things like bootstrap and SAAS are not necessary anymore... Where I work is doing well with semantics and using CSS to make all and JavaScript (ES6) only when it is really needed like DIV in html only when has no other way and C# Blazor .NET6+ for everything else ... Even Visual Studio has ARM support, Apple has proven that ARM has come to make a game change, is time to hold back our horses because I am sure that in the ending of 2023 a lot of this things like ARM will be showing strong your faces, so two years I believe that a computer for a good part of computers / laptops users will be wanting to change things...

You are all alright in what have you said, sorry for my English I am not native and have a good weekend for everyone that read the comments and at the end if have money to spend I of course suggest to get the Dell Ryzen 7 6800H with 3060 graphic if I could and had saved I'd buy it with pleasure but I have a child 6 years old wanting a xbox Series and a wife that need me and bills lol I can do this right now but waiting I will get a new good thing with ARM probably...
 

TSE

macrumors 68040
Jun 25, 2007
3,794
2,781
St. Paul, Minnesota
x86 will not die in the next 10-20 years.

Agreed. AMD is making just as big of strides in the performance/watt stage as Apple is since M1 was released, and we've seen Intel make great strides since fabricating on smaller nodes. We'll see as it's only been a couple years, but the compatibility and commercial infrastructure that x86 supports will make it so it doesn't die for the foreseeable future.

Will I ever buy an x86 computer again? Never say never, but probably not. I've always been disappointed by something when I've gotten a PC. The Mac with their own silicon is just too cohesive of an experience to say no to, even if it comes at a premium and an entrenchment into the "walled garden".
 

pshufd

macrumors G3
Oct 24, 2013
8,920
13,701
New Hampshire
Will I ever buy an x86 computer again? Never say never, but probably not. I've always been disappointed by something when I've gotten a PC. The Mac with their own silicon is just too cohesive of an experience to say no to, even if it comes at a premium and an entrenchment into the "walled garden".

Hard for me to say. I would like more performance than my current Windows system gives me but I'd like efficiency as well. I love Apple's efficiency and macOS but I hate the lockin on storage, RAM, displays and ports.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
71,651
40,822
The Mac with their own silicon is just too cohesive of an experience to say no to, even if it comes at a premium and an entrenchment into the "walled garden".
It doesn't have to be an either/or decision. Owning one doesn't negate owning the other. Windows and PCs do many things better then the Mac. macOS and Macs do many things better then the windows and PCs. I use both in a complementary manner and I personally have been content with the situation.
 

Sydde

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2009
2,422
6,969
IOKWARDI
Hard for me to say. I would like more performance than my current Windows system gives me but I'd like efficiency as well. I love Apple's efficiency and macOS but I hate the lockin on storage, RAM, displays and ports.

Microsoft and Qualcomm are working together to address your issue. When Qualcomm builds a SoC with four X4s and four 750s, they will be right on top of x86 performance, and maybe MS will have their code translation scheme working effectively by then.
 

Corefile

macrumors regular
Sep 24, 2022
128
163
My laptop is nearing 10-years old. Thus I'm starting to do some research on any potential new computer purchase. The problem is, I feel like currently we are in the worst time to buy a new computer. I feel that we are at the tail end of x86. And unlike phones, I expect my computer to last for around 10 years, not 4 or 5.
The main problem I see with x86 laptops is that they need fans to keep them cool and those things are always loud. I can't stand noisy computers nowadays so fans being super quiet is a must. I also want longevity on battery so that and noise neuter the speed of x86 laptops for me. I also cringe and the subpar trackpads. It is a frustrating experience when lumbered with a Windows laptop for work which fails at all three of those items.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
71,651
40,822
The main problem I see with x86 laptops is that they need fans to keep them cool and those things are always loud.
I hate to break it you, but Macs have fans as well. Not all PC laptops are loud, many are quiet, but Macs do have the advantage here
 

pshufd

macrumors G3
Oct 24, 2013
8,920
13,701
New Hampshire
Microsoft and Qualcomm are working together to address your issue. When Qualcomm builds a SoC with four X4s and four 750s, they will be right on top of x86 performance, and maybe MS will have their code translation scheme working effectively by then.

I switched back to Windows this week and had to switch back to macOS. I could not get the performance I needed out of the Windows system which is a 2020 build with a then-fast processor. I needed strong single-core performance and got it by using my M1 mini. The Windows desktop has stronger multi-core performance but that wasn't useful. So now I'm back to the M1 mini + 2014 iMac. I could do an Intel 12th gen or Zen 4 desktop build but that would require MB, RAM, CPU, PSU - or do a Zen 3 build which would require MB, CPU and maybe PSU. My current setup works though it would be better with another mini or replace the current mini with a Studio.

I think that Intel and AMD kind of screwed themselves by requiring users, already angry at what mining did to prices, to replace most of their builds with new, and more expensive, parts. AMD warned on revenue last night ($1 billion short) and I've been hearing that Zen 4 parts are selling poorly. I suspect that they are getting hit on GPUs as well. AMD and nVidia want a new normal on GPU pricing and I think that consumers, already worried about a recession in 2023, are pulling back on discretionary spending.

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If you want more, there's:
I hate to break it you, but Macs have fans as well. Not all PC laptops are loud, many are quiet, but Macs do have the advantage here

Most do but not all Macs have fans.
 

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TSE

macrumors 68040
Jun 25, 2007
3,794
2,781
St. Paul, Minnesota
It doesn't have to be an either/or decision. Owning one doesn't negate owning the other. Windows and PCs do many things better then the Mac. macOS and Macs do many things better then the windows and PCs. I use both in a complementary manner and I personally have been content with the situation.

I agree with you, but after changing careers I have no further use for Windows or a PC. I can do everything on a Mac just as well, if not better.
 
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c0ppo

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2013
1,878
3,253
I hate to break it you, but Macs have fans as well. Not all PC laptops are loud, many are quiet, but Macs do have the advantage here

Indeed. I own a M1 Pro MBP 14". I also own 2 thinkpads (X1C and X1E gen 4).
If I connect a MBP to my 2x 4K displays, fans don't turn on. Ever. Even when I push the device fans rarely turn on. And if they do, they are really silent.

On the other hand, fans on both thinkpads run like crazy even when just hooked to monitor setup.

But I own a PC desktop (windows 11), and on thinkpads I'm on Windows/PopOS.
I use it all, and have everything I need. No need to choose just one OS if I can have it all. And it works great for me.

But if I had to choose just one laptop, I would pick MBP just because of screen, battery life and fans.
 
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Technerd108

macrumors 68000
Oct 24, 2021
1,717
2,023
There are fanless windows PC's as well. There will likely be more in the future as Intel catches up with Apple.

However it is not an either or situation. Mac's are great. Windows PC's are great. The difference is that MacOS is more polished and optimized than Windows devices, except Surface devices which are very well optimized BUT you get much more choice when it comes to hardware on Windows devices from full Windows Tablets to ultra powerful desktops.

Windows and phone integration has come a long way over the years. Currently I am using my Samsung Galaxy S22 plus and Windows phone link is active. I can call, get messages and even mirror my phone screen on my PC. I can use android apps on my PC as well.

You can also get Windows devices for much cheaper price than Mac's. I have a Lenovo laptop with 12th gen Intel i7, 16gb ram and 512gb PCI 4 SSD, a 2k touchscreen as well for under $600 on sale at BestBuy.

My S22 plus phone I got for under $300 with a trade in from an older Samsung device I got as a free promotion through T-Mobile.

My point is if you are on a tight budget Android and Windows offer the most value and do more in sum total than Macs or iPhones. How long has Android had Always on Displays, Camera cut outs on the screens, and on and on. More total software runs on Windows. You can even dual boot with a full Linux desktop or run Ubuntu in Windows.

Macs have a great OS and incredible integration between Apple devices. Apple silicon is revolutionizing all Apple devices giving them incredible performance and battery life.

I agree with Maflynn in that it doesn't have to be an either or choice but you can use all which is the better choice for overall compatibility of software and website integration.

X86 is not going to die anytime soon and it is a great time to buy a windows computer. I think in the next 3 years it will be probably the best time ever as Intel advances on their process node and continues with big/little architecture making their cpus more powerful and more efficient.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
71,651
40,822
There are fanless windows PC's as well. There will likely be more in the future as Intel catches up with Apple.
The heat trajectory that both intel and amd cpus are on, mean fanless PCs are going to be even harder to find OR they'll be using such a low powered version that performance will be horrible.

I really like what Apple is doing with the M2 MBA, I could see myself using this, had I not bought the 14" Don't get me wrong, I'm really happy with the 14" but the MBA is also a really nice laptop
 
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Corefile

macrumors regular
Sep 24, 2022
128
163
I really like what Apple is doing with the M2 MBA, I could see myself using this, had I not bought the 14" Don't get me wrong, I'm really happy with the 14" but the MBA is also a really nice laptop
The fan-less M1 MBA I am typing this on is lovely. It has no moving parts at all in it so it should last a long time.
 

Technerd108

macrumors 68000
Oct 24, 2021
1,717
2,023
The heat trajectory that both intel and amd cpus are on, mean fanless PCs are going to be even harder to find OR they'll be using such a low powered version that performance will be horrible.

I really like what Apple is doing with the M2 MBA, I could see myself using this, had I not bought the 14" Don't get me wrong, I'm really happy with the 14" but the MBA is also a really nice laptop
At least Intel is finally using big little and once they get down to 7nm or 4nm the heat should be better.

I am excited to see what Intel is going to do. Sort of disappointed with AMD right now. Don't get me wrong I have always been a fan of the underdog and it was amazing what they did with 4000 Ryzen but I want to see them do a big/little as well and get their single core scores up there a bit.

Since Intel is still on 10nm+++ or Intel 7 and they switched the architecture to big/little I feel like they have the biggest potential.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
71,651
40,822
Is it the heat that is the issue, or the power draw?
The power causes the heat and I get for laptops will run cooler since they'll be using lower wattage processors, but my point is the overall trajectory of these chips is to use more wattage which causes things to run hotter
 

diamond.g

Contributor
Mar 20, 2007
9,738
1,763
Virginia
The power causes the heat and I get for laptops will run cooler since they'll be using lower wattage processors, but my point is the overall trajectory of these chips is to use more wattage which causes things to run hotter
Fair. It is weird how the Zen4 CPUs at the "legacy" PPT's are still faster then Zen3. Yet they choose to pull "all the power" instead.
 
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