Things we've always liked about windows yet never admitted it

[3nm]

i.) ctrl+x and ctrl+v.

ii.) windows' alt+tab and task bar. managing a lot of open windows can be a bish in OS X. though expose helps a bit, it lags at times.

iii.) way better image viewing apps, and they are free! (thumbplus, infanview, etc.)

iv.) an easier way to customize file icons based on extensions.

v.) not a big deal, but at times i wish hitting enter means opening a file/folder.

 

[motulist]

Biggest thing for me - alt+tab between windows, not applications.

Nothing's worse than having a couple of apps with multiple windows and you need to flick between the windows.

I know that you can flick between windows in an application, but not throughout all applications which really gets on my nerves.

Apple-` cycles through a program's open windows, did you know that? Apple-tab cycles through open applications. That seems like a much more usable system than just cycling through all open windows regardless of which program you're in, that's just confusing and disorienting and makes you have to sort through many more items to find what you're looking for.

And of corse the most efficient way is to use the 'show all open windows' feature of expose.

If you really are craving for something that works somewhat similar to the windows way, you can hit expose's 'show all windows' and then hit tab to cycle through.

 

[netdog]

Oh, I really liked Bob and The Paperclip Guy.

 

[motulist]

i.) ctrl+x and ctrl+v.

Although I never use this feature when I use a windows machine, I can definitely see how if it was built into the OS I use everyday that I might really grow to like it.

ii.) windows' alt+tab and task bar. managing a lot of open windows can be a bish in OS X. though expose helps a bit, it lags at times.

See my above response.

iii.) way better image viewing apps, and they are free! (thumbplus, infanview, etc.)

Nothing beats graphicconverter. Nothing. It does everything, including super powerful image browser functionality that I believe you're referring to.

iv.) an easier way to customize file icons based on extensions.

I'm sure there's an easy way to do this, look around and I'm sure you'll find something. And if you don't find anything then it'd be super simple to set up a system on your Mac that would do it just using OS X's built in features, like automator, smart folders, applescript, or whatever.

v.) not a big deal, but at times i wish hitting enter means opening a file/folder.

I totally agree with you on this one.

 

[mpw]

It's not really nonstandard ... it's context sensitive. When was the last time you wanted to find some text in a video? Or apply a filter to a spreadsheet?

Here's an example of what I consider inconsistency. What do Alt-F4, Ctrl-F4, and Ctrl-W have in common? They all close a window. But they don't all work at the same time for the same behavior. It depends on the application you use and its mode.

Another example: the Alt key itself. Is it sticky (like when accessing a Windows menu) or is it not (like when using Alt-F4)?

All true, but: My point is that once you know the 'Alt _' concept you can do anything in MS Windows, you don't have to remember multiple key combos or contexts. Yes you can do it other ways too, and yes some of the other ways of doing it need to be remembered or are as inconsistent as Mac's way or ways, but you don't HAVE to remember more than the one way. In Mac you don't have the universal way always there except for the mouse or longer winded Ctrl+F2 → ↓ ↵ method (Ctrl+fn+F2 → ↓ ↵ if you're using a laptop or the new desktop keyboard if recent rumours turn out to be accurate)

i.) ctrl+x and ctrl+v...

Cut & Paste? I assume you mean in finder for files right? Cmd+x and Cmd+v work in applications just the same.

 

[DoFoT9]

i actually find that the osx keys are WAY easier than the windoze ones.... the windoze ones are stupid. the osx ones are really easy to use and easy to remember, and everything uses the same concept.

thats jmo, ive been using macs for quite a while.. i dont tend to use shortcuts in xp or wateva...the mouse is used alot

 

[mpw]

i actually find that the osx keys are WAY easier than the windoze ones.... the windoze ones are stupid...

How so?

OK here's an example:

Sitting here right now I got and image open and selected in an application called 'Seashore', how do I use the 'Flip Vertically' option using keyboard shortcuts/accelerator keys only?

Here's a screen shot to help.

 

[motulist]

how do I use the 'Flip Vertically' option using keyboard shortcuts/accelerator keys only?

You can arrow down to it. Or if it's a command you use frequently enough that you want it to have a key command, then you can assign it one. In 'system preferences > keyboard & mouse' you can assign your own keyboard shortcuts to any menu item in any application.

 

[DaftUnion]

One word and only one word: games. End of story. Everything else I prefer my iMac over Windows anyday.

 

[Father Jack]

Well, let me think "what do I like about Windows" ........ No .. sorry nothing springs to mind ....

 

[mpw]

You can arrow down to it. Or if it's a command you use frequently enough that you want it to have a key command, then you can assign it one. In 'system preferences > keyboard & mouse' you can assign your own keyboard shortcuts to any menu item in any application.

But I'd have to remember it wouldn't I, and do you expect people unfamiliar with computers to start messing about with assigning shortcut keys?

 

[motulist]

But I'd have to remember it wouldn't I, and do you expect people unfamiliar with computers to start messing about with assigning shortcut keys?

I expect people who are unfamiliar with computers wouldn't use the alt+contextual letter any more than they'd use the concrete modifier+letter system. And most of the apps that non-super serious computer users use all have assigned key commands for basically all the menu items.

And you don't have to remember it. control+f2, then tab over to the correct menu and you see all the keyboard shortcuts listed right there on the right of all the commands. Then just hit the key command you're looking at or arrow down to the item.

 

[mpw]

I expect people who are unfamiliar with computers wouldn't use the alt+contextual letter any more than they'd use the concrete modifier+letter system...

OK sit two people down, one at a MS Windows PC one at a Mac PC.
Explain to one the 'Alt _' concept, explain to the other the various Mac methods and leave them work out stuff for themselves for a couple of hours.

Now sit two new people down and have the first two explain the methods they've used. Who do you think is going to be up and running and being productive first?

...And you don't have to remember it. control+f2, then tab over to the correct menu and you see all the keyboard shortcuts listed right there on the right of all the commands. Then just hit the key command you're looking at or arrow down to the item.

Doesn't work
and if it did how many extra keystrokes did I just use over the Windows method??

 

[After G]

All true, but: My point is that once you know the 'Alt _' concept you can do anything in MS Windows, you don't have to remember multiple key combos or contexts. Yes you can do it other ways too, and yes some of the other ways of doing it need to be remembered or are as inconsistent as Mac's way or ways, but you don't HAVE to remember more than the one way. In Mac you don't have the universal way always there except for the mouse or longer winded Ctrl+F2 → ↓ ↵ method (Ctrl+fn+F2 → ↓ ↵ if you're using a laptop or the new desktop keyboard if recent rumours turn out to be accurate)

The problem I see with a universal system such as the one in MS Windows is that you have to remember placement of things to do it quickly. Some of the "standard" positions should be easy enough to remember such as File -> Quit, File -> Exit, and Edit -> Preferences but they do change sometimes in WIndows. In OS X, you just type the first few letters of an item, always looking at the same spot for the letters to use. For me, I can type three letters in the time it takes me to look at a menu item to determine the underscore placement for activating a command.

Or you can remember the much more standardized and easy to remember key combinations in OS X. I find these superior as you only have to remember (function = modifier key + letter) as opposed to remembering (function = modifier key + letter of menu + letter of function in menu).

I will admit my ignorance here as I don't know exactly the Windows behavior when you press the first of the two letters - does the menu open to reveal the choices or does it highlight the menu and wait for you to open it as in OS X? OR is it app dependent?

How so?

OK here's an example:

Sitting here right now I got and image open and selected in an application called 'Seashore', how do I use the 'Flip Vertically' option using keyboard shortcuts/accelerator keys only?

Here's a screen shot to help.

You can assign your own key combos to any menu item in any program OS X. It's in System Preferences. Since you assign it yourself it should be easy to remember.

 

[netdog]

Nobody else misses Bob?

 

[After G]

OK sit two people down, one at a MS Windows PC one at a Mac PC.
Explain to one the 'Alt _' concept, explain to the other the various Mac methods and leave them work out stuff for themselves for a couple of hours.

Now sit two new people down and have the first two explain the methods they've used. Who do you think is going to be up and running and being productive first?

...

Doesn't work
and if it did how many extra keystrokes did I just use over the Windows method??

I would say the Mac would be easier for a new user to explain to another new user, because of how the menu items are more standardized.

Throw a new app at the Windows user and he will spend extra time finding where the underscores are because the commands are slightly different. Quit might be replaced by Exit, Preferences might be in the Edit menu or the File menu, etc.

Throw a new app at the Mac user and he can probably port many of the same skills he learned with minimal thought. There is a reason Mac users complain about apps that don't follow the Apple UI guidelines, or when the keyboard shortcuts are different than expected (rare, but it does happen. Open-source apps, I'm looking at you.)

For either new user, the mouse is probably faster because they probably haven't learned to touch-type and would spend half their time looking at the keyboard, which takes away a lot of the effectiveness of keyboard shortcuts. Telling them only how to Alt+underlined letter+other underlined letter won't help.

As for the other thing, extra keystrokes are cheap. The new user won't mind having to press the arrow key multiple times as long as all they have to remember is (key combo to highlight menu, arrows to move around, enter to execute). And that works regardless of OS.

netdog, I never used Bob and I don't plan to start now. And Clippy made me want to melt down my box of paper clips and make bullets to shoot myself with.

 

[netdog]

netdog, I never used Bob and I don't plan to start now. And Clippy made me want to melt down my box of paper clips and make bullets to shoot myself with.

You are a heartless human being.

 

[Blue Velvet]

I've been thinking long and hard about this, and the best thing I can come up with is the nice startup sound on Windows 95.

 

[Applespider]

On this one issue MS Windows is simply better, simpler, more user-friendly. It's like computing for 'the rest of us'.

Nope... computing for the masses is using the mouse. It's only 'power' users that ever really get to grips with keyboard shortcuts. There are people in my office that still can't grasp cutting and pasting with the keyboard shortcuts. The thought of using anything else would terrify them.

The feature i missed the most is being able to use a key to choose an answer when a dialog box popped up (in EVERY dialog box).
Y for yes, n for no
or
A for accept, C for cancel or whatever the dialog box threw up.

In many dialogue boxes, you can just hit the first letter of the option - so s for save, d for don't save and Command . will work on Cancel (although admittedly you have to know that one).

But you still have to remember them, do you know what Cmd-F does for example? Honestly without looking or trying it??

With MS Windows ALL you need to know is Alt +the underscored letter. One concept, so simple.

Yup... in general Cmd-F is Find. In Windows, I use Ctrl-F to do the same thing. I much prefer using the Cmd or Ctrl method in either OS X or XP (and I use them about the same) over the Alt method which to be honest generally ends up confusing me and popping up by accident if I hit the Alt key by accident. I use Ctrl W to close windows in XP just as I do in OS X. I keep trying to use Ctrl Q before forgetting that it doesn't work!

OK sit two people down, one at a MS Windows PC one at a Mac PC.
Explain to one the 'Alt _' concept, explain to the other the various Mac methods and leave them work out stuff for themselves for a couple of hours.

Now sit two new people down and have the first two explain the methods they've used. Who do you think is going to be up and running and being productive first?

You'll come back to find them all using the mouse.

I miss re-sizing from any corner/side of a window when working on a small screen. I miss Exposé and easy accents when working in Windows.

 

[mpw]

The problem I see with a universal system such as the one in MS Windows is that you have to remember placement of things to do it quickly. Some of the "standard" positions should be easy enough such as File -> Quit, File -> Exit, and Edit -> Preferences should be easy enough to remember but they do change sometimes in WIndows. In OS X, you just type the first few letters of an item, always looking at the same spot for the letters to use. For me, I can type three letters in the time it takes me to look at a menu item to determine the underscore placement for activating a command...

You've lost me there? You find it quicker and easier to look for the first few letters rather than the one underscored letter?

...Or you can remember the much more standardized and easy to remember key combinations in OS X. I find these superior as you only have to remember (function = modifier key + letter) as opposed to remembering (function = modifier key + letter of menu + letter of function in menu)...

Maybe I just have a bad memory, but everybody seems so happy to remember hundreds of key combinations

...You can assign your own key combos to any menu item in any program OS X. It's in System Preferences. Since you assign it yourself it should be easy to remember.

I don't want to have to remember how the flip vertically in Seashore?

...The new user won't mind having to press the arrow key multiple times as long as all they have to remember is (key combo to highlight menu, arrows to move around, enter to execute). And that works regardless of OS...

Seems an odd way to look at efficiency 'I don't mind being inefficient if it means I can be equally inefficient in any OS'

and btw the key combo you just mentioned doesn't work for me

 

[DoFoT9]

You can arrow down to it. Or if it's a command you use frequently enough that you want it to have a key command, then you can assign it one. In 'system preferences > keyboard & mouse' you can assign your own keyboard shortcuts to any menu item in any application.

thankyou that just helped me out sooo much!

Maybe I just have a bad memory, but everybody seems so happy to remember hundreds of key combinations

i really dont have any trouble remembering the keys.. i find it easy. either + key, or + Shift + key, or + Option + Key.. EASY

 

[Ish]

The best thing I like about Windows is that it attracts most of the viruses so I don't have to worry about them at the moment!

 

[DoFoT9]

yea its winter here where i am... had a cold for a month!!!

 

[After G]

You've lost me there? You find it quicker and easier to look for the first few letters rather than the one underscored letter?

Yes, I am saying it's faster for me to know to look at the beginning of a menu item and type three characters from that, instead of scanning the item for an underscored letter and rechecking to make sure it's the right one.

Maybe I just have a bad memory, but everybody seems so happy to remember hundreds of key combinations

It's not really hundreds, I'd say for myself about 10-15 or so that all applications share in common, and then a few dependent on context like Cmd-F. When you remember it's like second nature.

I don't want to have to remember how the flip vertically in Seashore?

Why do you need a shortcut if you don't want to remember how to do something? And the first time you access this option in Windows, you have to locate it by looking at all the menus. And you still have to remember which menu it's in after finding out, instead of just setting something like Alt-V for vertical flip in System Preferences.

Seems an odd way to look at efficiency 'I don't mind being inefficient if it means I can be equally inefficient in any OS'

Is it more efficient to know one method for one OS or to remember one method for three OSes with one key change? The "remembering hundreds of key combinations" translates pretty well across Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows. I'm pretty sure it would work for another BSD as well.

and btw the key combo you just mentioned doesn't work for me

Ctrl-F2 (you might have to press Fn on laptop); the equivalent of Alt on Windows (without the letter highlighting that you miss, of course).

 

[motulist]

You can assign your own keyboard shortcuts to any menu item in any application.

thankyou that just helped me out sooo much!

You're welcome! I'm always glad to help. Out of curiosity, which menu items in which programs are you most excited about adding key commands to?