Thinking of a PC file server... advice?

[livingfortoday]

Yeah, I plan on going with a full install of Ubuntu 6.06, with a full GUI versus just the server version. I don't have much experience outside of a GUi-only environment, and I don't want to go insane. Just kinda want it all to just work!

I will dual-boot into XP for now (or 2k, not sure which will be best), until I get a handle on Ubuntu.

 

[4JNA]

late to the thread, but think you are headed the right direction. linux works well, and the newer releases are way easy to set up.

i vote for the xp route if you already have access to xp pro. i have this exact setup, right down to the asus mobo, and use xp for the remote desktop connection. using an older ibook g4/933 in the kitchen/around the house, and can use the remote desktop over .11g at full speed. runs full screen, works really well, and lets me use X/XP on old hardware at full speed. no trouble mounting/sharing files, movie/music library streams to either, all good stuff.

good luck with the build.

 

[livingfortoday]

Thanks, yeah, it's XP Pro that I'm going to be using at first. I got all the parts except for the CPU today, so now I just have to think out how I'm going to transfer the information from the PowerMac RAID onto the PC RAID once it's set up. Hmm... I assume I'll just do it over the network I have now, plus I'll get a gauge on how fast file transfers are that way.

 

[livingfortoday]

Okay, one last question, I promise. I'm only using this as a file server, and it's currently going to be set up to share files with three computers. In the future I may add more. I'm wondering how much RAM you guys would recommend for this? I have 1GB now, and I'm considering upping that to 2GB. Do you think it would help at all or make any difference?

Thanks!

 

[4JNA]

running an amd 3200+, 1gb (2 x 512), 4 x 500gb sata II in raid 5 here which works well based on similar setup/use. old POS 4u rackmount case, 4/3 sata hotswap in the optical bays, slim cd/floppy hacked into the front, 2 x 120mm fans, 600w power supply.

shared between 4 computers (3 Mac, 1 pc), server runs my sharing apps, quickbooks which i can access from anywhere due to business/travel/kids, media library, folding, etc.

i will be moving files or using remote desktop in one room, media streaming in another room, folding and file sharing running in the background, no slow downs or problems. this is over gigabit, with only the one ibook wireless connection.

more is better, but can't see any reason to upgrade at this point. for me anyway. best of luck.

 

[rogersmj]

Okay, one last question, I promise. I'm only using this as a file server, and it's currently going to be set up to share files with three computers. In the future I may add more. I'm wondering how much RAM you guys would recommend for this? I have 1GB now, and I'm considering upping that to 2GB. Do you think it would help at all or make any difference?

Thanks!

My 1.6TB file server is a 500MHz Pentium III with 384 MB of RAM. It works wonderfully for sharing files among a half-dozen computers. You really don't need much horsepower if it's just going to be a file server.

 

[vro29]

I came across this forum while trying to solve my own file server issues...

On my gigabit network I find that XP Proservers files very SLOW to my Vista PC - I get 4-10MBps per second transfers. However, with Vista on that same pc the transfers speed up to 25-30MBps.

I'm sure it's likely a driver issue - but I've downloaded the newest Asus and Via drivers - I'm getting pretty fed up trying to figure it out.

Anyway, when Vista is installed everything runs great. I just don't want to have to buy another Vista Home license when XP Pro should work fine (and gives me Remote Desktop).

If anyone has any ideas I'm all ears.

-Vito

 

[4JNA]

...I just don't want to have to buy another Vista Home license when XP Pro should work fine (and gives me Remote Desktop).

If anyone has any ideas I'm all ears.

sounds like a hosed onboard nic. get a pci gigabit, usually around $20 for a decent quality card.

'you are attempting to replace the nic, cancel or allow...' best of luck.

 

[rogersmj]

sounds like a hosed onboard nic. get a pci gigabit, usually around $20 for a decent quality card.

I don't think so. It works fine in one OS, but not the other. Plus, he already has a gigabit card. Did you read what he wrote?

On my gigabit network I find that XP Proservers files very SLOW to my Vista PC - I get 4-10MBps per second transfers. However, with Vista on that same pc the transfers speed up to 25-30MBps.

I'm sure it's likely a driver issue - but I've downloaded the newest Asus and Via drivers - I'm getting pretty fed up trying to figure it out.

Anyway, when Vista is installed everything runs great. I just don't want to have to buy another Vista Home license when XP Pro should work fine (and gives me Remote Desktop).

If anyone has any ideas I'm all ears.

-Vito

Vito-

You have discovered exactly what many have discovered over the years -- Windows (excluding Vista, I don't know much about that yet) has a horrible, horrible networking stack. This often manifests itself in poor performance as a file server. That was what originally drove me to Linux 4 years ago as a file server solution -- I was trying to use an XP box, and then a Server 2003 box, as my file server and no matter what I did the performance just sucked. The way the network interacts with the OS to retrieve information is simply so much more efficient on Linux. From your experience, it sounds like MS has made improvements to TCP/IP in Vista, but in my opinion that's not worth buying a whole Vista license just to sit on a server. Set yourself up a Linux file server. Once you familiarize yourself with it the process isn't too hard at all, plus there's lots of good resources out there.

 

[vro29]

Clarification

FYI, the first thing I tried was installing a new DLink Gigabit card assuming there was an issue with my onboard lan.

Anyway, I think I've been looking at this the wrong way... I don't think XP is slow - I think VISTA is slow when copying from XP. I just assumed the problem was XP since it is the file server - but I haven't been able to find much on the net regarding "Slow XP File Sharing". However, when searching "Slow Vista File Sharing" I got a ton of hits. It seems to be a compatibility issue between Vista & XP - I'll confirm this tonight when retest using my MacBook.

The 2nd thing I tried was a Linux NAS solution (NAS Lite & Free NAS) - but neither of them worked with either network card. I could install Ubuntu or something - but I really like the idea of having a server I can Remote Desktop to (as opposed to shelling into) - so I can run all my apps remotely. I also like the idea of having a proper Windows PC hooked up to my LCD TV.

Anyway, the point is we shouldn't be having these issues in the first place...

**UPDATE**
File transfer speeds while on my MacBook from my XP file server are around 30MBps - it looks like Apple does Windows networking better than Vista! [ouch]

-Vito

 

[4JNA]

I don't think so. It works fine in one OS, but not the other. Plus, he already has a gigabit card. Did you read what he wrote?

yes, i read it. a generic question, intermittent network issues not resolved by drivers, indicated asus which means onboard nic, not card, and didn't specify if the issues were during transfers both ways, if results varied on each specific os, or anything else. network trouble. think i got it.

over years of network troubleshooting, have seen lots of the same issues caused by semi-defective network cards. that is, they appear to work, but under load, will stall or slow down. cool off, wait, and they come right back until the next round. onboard adapters are the worst due to spotty cooling inside the case. works fine on the bench, fails over time once installed. if he had not already tried, it was a suggestion to attempt a cheap repair, or at least gain more info for tracking down the problem.

other things the OP might try would by placing the pc nic into half-duplex mode instead of auto negotiate. would also point out that vista and it's 'horrible stack' also generate about twice the network traffic of xp due to management overhead, link here. best of luck to all involved.

 

[9Charms]

Yeah, that will work fine. You might have to specify a few more things to install that the server config comes with by default, but it shouldn't be a problem. I guarantee you that you'll still be setting some of the stuff up from the command line though, so be prepared for that. You're going to need to setup and install an SSH server and SMB (Samba file sharing) at least. I use those, plus Apache+MySQL and a secure FTP server so I can easily access my files from anywhere in the world.

This is going great so far. I have installed the Ubuntu Desktop, and then used the Terminal to apt-get all the server stuff.

Now I'm just trying to figure out how to configure and administer everything. Is there a GUI program to do so? Like all the ones that start with "G" like GPROFTPD and GSAMBAD?

Also, would VNC work so that I can control the desktop from my Mac? Or should I use like Krdc or Krfb?

Should I be asking these questions on the Ubuntu forum instead?

 

[nplima]

Should I be asking these questions on the Ubuntu forum instead?

You could but in fact those qustions have been answered already:

Ubuntuguide.org

Setting up SAMBA will be easy enough with any text editor. You just adapt the settings that are already in the smb.conf file to match the files/folders you wish to share.
This ubuntuguide is particularly good as it contains the 4 or 5 most usual combinations, you just have to pick the best for your case, copy and paste to the configuration file. As a bonus you'll find out that it's the same configuration OS X keeps under the chrome

 

[9Charms]

You could but in fact those qustions have been answered already:

Ubuntuguide.org

Holy cr@p. This is awesome! Thank you so much!

 

[livingfortoday]

Well, moving this thread back on topic... I finally got it all together, got my drives set up in RAID 5, and am currently running XP Pro. It's a bit slow in transferring files from my Sawtooth, but its quicker talking with my MacBook, so that's all that matters right now, frankly. I'm gonna see how it handles multpile computers this coming weekend, and decide if I should give Ubuntu another shot, or stick with XP.

 

[9Charms]

Well, moving this thread back on topic... I finally got it all together, got my drives set up in RAID 5, and am currently running XP Pro. It's a bit slow in transferring files from my Sawtooth, but its quicker talking with my MacBook, so that's all that matters right now, frankly. I'm gonna see how it handles multpile computers this coming weekend, and decide if I should give Ubuntu another shot, or stick with XP.

Please post your experience. I'm doing the same thing right now (but with a P3-500). I've given up on Ubuntu as well, and will be using XP Home. I'd be very interested in seeing your results, especially when it comes to the illegal file names and characters. I think a way around it is to create a .dmg file for those...

 

[livingfortoday]

Please post your experience. I'm doing the same thing right now (but with a P3-500). I've given up on Ubuntu as well, and will be using XP Home. I'd be very interested in seeing your results, especially when it comes to the illegal file names and characters. I think a way around it is to create a .dmg file for those...

Well, the transfer of files from the PowerMac to the PC was relatively smooth - there was only one file name that was too long, and OS X being the absolute joy that it is stopped the entire transfer when it hit that name, which meant I had to go through and pick through to see what had been moved and what not. I recommend doing this bit by bit if I were you.

Performance is better than it was with my Sawtooth. I can switch between films and music very quickly, and it barely lags. On the Sawtooth I could make iTunes crash by trying to skip ahead in a video - no more. I don't have any raw transfer speed numbers yet, but so far this is clearly better than the Sawtooth was. Hope that helps.

 

[livingfortoday]

Did kind of an informal test - over ethernet, through my router, I can move files at a sustained speed of 10.8MB/sec, about. Over wireless, with a Super-G router, I only get 2.7MB/sec.

That's pretty slow, but for right now it's doing what I need, so I'm not too bummed. If in the future I need higher speeds, I'll definitely switch back to Linux for this.

 

[nazmac21]

Here are two Xserve options:

Xserve #1:
Two 64-bit 2.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon processors
1.33GHz frontside bus and 4MB shared L2 cache per processor
1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 ECC fully buffered DIMM)
80GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA hard drive1
Built-in ATI Radeon X1300 graphics with 64MB RAM
Mac OS X Server 10.4 Unlimited-Client Edition
price $2,999.00

Xserve #2 (the best server in the world right now)
Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
32GB (8x4GB)
300GB SAS ADM @ 15,000-rpm
300GB SAS ADM @ 15,000-rpm
300GB SAS ADM @ 15,000-rpm
8x SuperDrive DL (DVD+R DL/DVD + RW/CD-RW)
ATI Radeon X1300 64MB SDRAM with VGA Adapter
Dual-channel 4Gb Fibre Channel card with PCI Express riser
Quad-channel 4Gb Fibre Channel card with PCI Express riser
Dual 650W Power Supply
Rack Mounting Kit - Threaded Hole Rack
Xserve RAID (14x500GB)
Mac OS X Server Maintenance 36 Mths Unl. Client (Single Server), price per server
Apple Remote Desktop 3 (Unlimited Managed Systems)
AppleCare Service Parts Kit for Xserve
Mac OS X Server Software Support - Alliance
price: $98,061.00

 

[Cybix]

Time for Mr DIY to chime in....

A lil run down about me, and this kind of thing. I'm a systems analyst by trade for a large government health organisation. I basically look at a dept's requirements, choose what is the best solution based on these requirements and their budget, then blow their cash on making it happen. So you could say that for a living. I attempt to do whats 'right'.

In my non-gov-health life, I'm a I.T. consultant, I specialise in Linux (and more recently OS X too, well I'm getting there).

I've read this whole thread. I have some comments hehe

Firstly, completely forget about windows for file serving. What a joke. Infact it's been PROVEN that Samba (on a Linux/BSD OS) serve's files faster/better than windows can.

Here's the best bit:
If you ONLY need a fileserver. Then just setup FreeNAS. I see it's been mentioned in here already. It's DAMN easy, it's got a fancy web interface, it's light, it can boot off CD or USB, or even a CF card (if you have a CF->IDE interface) and did I mention it just plain kicks arse?

I setup FreeNAS sometime ago (not current version) and couldnt get AFP working properly. But I'll tell you, if you do get it working (i must try the latest version), it will be way faster (apparently) than using samba (windows sharing).

If you need MORE than just "file serving" (say, you want web serving, an ftp server, or a web proxy, who knows)... then definately setup a Linux box.

I recommend Fedora Core or SUSE for simplicity, ease of use (even for linux gumbys) and reliability (oh and of course community support). I cant comment on Ubuntu, because I've not used it, but it seems to be pretty hot right now.

Linux is easy.

If you must know, your Mac is pretty much just like Linux. (well, BSD anyway), it has it all undernieth.

My setup:

I run three Mac's in my house. Two MBP's and one iMac (kitchen, see my sig). I have an old Intel 2.6Ghz celeron as my server, with a gig of ram and about 250gig in hdd. It runs apache for web, samba for file serving, postfix for email, mysql, php, dns services and more... It has Fedora Core 6 Linux on it. I have a 1gig net card in this machine, it's got 'okay' speed when transfering files, I wouldn't say it rocks. It's def not as fast as xfering files from MBP to MBP using AFP.

I'm about to install netatalk on it, and see what the AFP in that is like. If it's good I will ditch samba (or disable it until mates with windoze come over).

I'm seriously considering ditching this machine, and replacing it with a Mac Mini. Your probably thinking "wtf"??... my reasons:

My linux server is a bit noisy (it's in my office, and like QUIET). It consumes a fair bit of power (i spose), and it's chunky.

I can do all of the above things that my Linux server does, with a Mac mini, whilst saving space, power, and it will be much quieter. I will probably go an external firewire HDD setup on the mini for the file serving. I'll have mac -> mac filesharing, everything will be sweet.

I'm going off topic here. Lets take a step back.

Do yourself a favour and TRY FreeNAS. It's fairly easy when you suss out how to mount drives setup shares, etc.

I'm dead keen to try it out again for myself, and see how I go with AFP.

Good luck with everything (please, for crying out loud, ditch your windows idea)

 

[livingfortoday]

I appreciate your advice, but if I can't get my Macs to talk with it, why should I go with FreeNAS? All I'm using this computer for is a fileserver and to run BOINC on the side.

 

[9Charms]

Do yourself a favour and TRY FreeNAS. It's fairly easy when you suss out how to mount drives setup shares, etc.

I tried FreeNas 0.68 and it kept blue-screening my PIII 500 on install. Which makes it a little hard to accept as a viable alternative... Meanwhile Windows XP Home seems to be doing an admirable job.

 

[Mozze]

I run an athalon 64 with an asus board that has wifi built in I run windows xp on it and it is setup with 6 WD 320gb Sata2 HDDs and use it as a wireless server to the rest of the PC's in my house. I have just bought my first mac and havent had time to do anything with it. ( Read I think I bought a stolen PB G4) and you'll understand why I havent played with it. but I was seeing here that people are saying that windows xp is slow for file xfer I think that might just be a bit of MACfanboyizum becuase xfering huge media files like 1-5 seasons of shows to my laptop or friends laptops goes as fast as their HDDs can write, and thats with me only using wireless G standard

 

[donmei]

Cybix,

I agree with everything you said, from a technical perspective. But you need to take into account peoples' comfort level.

I think for the average person a GUI that they know and hate is beneficial. And I do think that XP works just fine for that. I'm sure that it does not compare with some Linux setups for pure throughput.

I've used XP as a file server for years. I just started using a promise raid controller with a couple of SATA drives.

This machine does ONLY file serving. It is shut off from the internet by my router and mimimal services are running.

One thing that looks very interesting is the free VMware server. This will allow you to run it also as an app server with all the benefits of virtualization.

Don

p.s. if I was starting from scratch, I wouldnt even buy/build a server. I'd just buy one of the inexpensive NAS boxes that supports raid 1 and throw a couple of sata drives in it and be done with it.

p.p.s. PLEASE dont thingk that if you have raid, you dont need to back up. Tape is best, but unfortunatly tape has not kept pace with the rapid growth in disk size. a USB drive that is unplugged from all cords and stored somewhere safe is a good balance between security and convenience.

 

[livingfortoday]

p.p.s. PLEASE dont thingk that if you have raid, you dont need to back up. Tape is best, but unfortunatly tape has not kept pace with the rapid growth in disk size. a USB drive that is unplugged from all cords and stored somewhere safe is a good balance between security and convenience.

Yeah, I just wish I could find something that matched the price/value of hard drives. My RAID 5 is pretty nice, but I know that one power spike that's too much for my surge protector, or some more water leaking from upstairs or really anything and it's all gone.