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Originally posted by Codemonkey



Obviously, some MFG's already do this. How do you feel about it when you end up paying $27 000 for that same car? Pretty jilted. And pretty soon Dell, Gateway et al will be advertising "Get a new computer for $xxx, no surprises. Honest"


What the...???

Obviously, we don't know for sure what will be announced, but come on... The rumor *isn't* that Macs will ship without iApps, but rather that they will begin to charge for upgrades.

I think your car analogy is way off the mark.

Besides, when did Steve ever promise free upgrades for life??

(And BTW, just try to find a comparable notebook to the gig PB for under $3k)
 
Integrated 802.11 & Bluetooth Airport Card?

The best way for Apple to introduce Bluetooth to the current product line would be to retail a combo 802.11/Bluetooth card.

Contrary to popular belief, this is very possible. In fact, it's already in the works, according to a news tidbit from the Bluetooth SIG. Note the January time frame for availability.

Trio Work On Combined Bluetooth/802.11 Module
December 11, 2002

Embedded Systems Programming

CSR (Cambridge Silicon Radio), Intersil and SMART Modular Technologies have collaborated to produce a mini-PCI card combining Bluetooth and 802.11b wireless protocols.

The combo card uses CSR's channel skipping technology, minimising interference between the Bluetooth and 802.11 radios and improving the throughput of the Bluetooth radio by as much as 50 percent over solutions that rely on MAC level signalling. SMART expects to make samples of the card available in January 2003...

http://www.bluetooth.com/news/news.asp?A=2&PID=404

Since both 802.11b/g and Bluetooth play at 2.4 GHz, the existing antenna's built into our Mac's would do nicely, thank you very much.

So.... why not a new version of an Airport card that is 802.11g & Bluetooth? Too ambitious? Okay... a 802.11b and Bluetooth Airport card.
The peripherals would/could come in time.

Airport is already overpriced compared to our PC brethren. The additional cost of the Bluetooth chipset could justify this current premium.

Wishful thinking, perhaps. 🙂

D
 
bring it on

As long as the iApps aren't subscription-based or tied into .Mac, I have no problem with Apple charging for the upgrades.

Charge for minor patches. No.
Included with system purchase. Yes.
Charge for major upgrades/added features. Yes.

I want Apple to be profitable... I don't want to help sink the ship.
 
Well, that said, I think it would be a fantastic idea if my existing .mac subscription included complimentary iApp upgrades as a perk. It would make perfect sense and, would not involve charging me anything I'm not already committed to paying. Free for .mac subscribers or $50 for non-subscribers would be great.

In any case, though, that's a huge bargain for the quality of the software. I knew they couldn't keep giving that stuff away forever. Developing and supporting quality software is not cheap.
 
Originally posted by bbarnhart
You still get a copy of all the iApps when you buy a new computer. The upgrades to future newer version is what you will be paying for. In my opinion, that seems fair. No one says you have to upgrade.

(Now watch Apple make .Mac dependant on the newest versions of its iApps)

Come on... I'm an avid Apple supporter, but realistically, what does Apple have going for it besides it's iApps? 😕 If Apple charged for iApps and made them dependent on .Mac, 🙂rolleyes: ) then what realistically is the benifit of a Mac over a cheaper PC?
 
One more thing, if Apple doesn't include these charged upgrade in the future OS (think 10.3), and they are incompatible with the OS, then won't you be forced to upgrade to the newest iApps?
 
Originally posted by Flowbee


What the...???

Obviously, we don't know for sure what will be announced, but come on... The rumor *isn't* that Macs will ship without iApps, but rather that they will begin to charge for upgrades.

I think your car analogy is way off the mark.

Besides, when did Steve ever promise free upgrades for life??

(And BTW, just try to find a comparable notebook to the gig PB for under $3k)

Right... my initial purchase of my Mac included the iApps... but not all of them. iCal, iSync etc. are downloaded after the fact. Then I upgraded to Jaguar. So in theory, this should upgrade my current crop of iApps as well, as they were included as part of the OS. The only ones it _might_ not include are the ones I've downloaded off of Apple.com.

Therefore, the apps that have been upgraded in parallel with the OS can't be plucked out for separate upgrade paths.

As well, I never once said that "Steve" promised us anything... be it .Mac for free, or iApps for free, or whatever. All I simply stated that the more they abstract from the OS, the less spectacular that product becomes.

Also, right now, right at this very moment I'm not disputing the value of Macs... again, you're reading what you want into my post.

Finally, you mention how you think my car analogy is off the mark, yet there's no evidence or even a better analogy backing it up. So I guess here's a hearty pat on the back and a "good for you!".

Toodles.
 
So how would it work?

How would a charge for upgrade only plan work?

Does this mean that if I buy the latest OS I get the latest iApps but long time users have to pay for the latest iApps?

Or do I get the old iApps when I buy the latest OS and then decide if I want to immediately pay for upgrades?

Will software update know the difference between an OS 10.2 user and an OS 10.3 user when they go to download bugfixes for common and uncommon iApps?

Will all iApps be bundled, I mean will I have to pay to upgrade iPhoto, Itunes, iCal, iMail, addressbook, iMovie, iDvd, etc. even if I only want iTunes?

This is the problem Apple gets into when they start people out with nice "free little apps" at the cost of increased hardware & OS prices.

They should have charged seperately to begin with, OS - one price, iCal-one price, iTunes-one price, etc. And each app should have survived or lost on their own real value merits. Based on Apples cost to develop them and Apples ability to charge for them.

I'll be surprized if Apple won't get sued for bundling "free applications with OS X", killing off competitors for such apps, and then turning around and charging for them after everyone who bought OS X standardizes on these apps.
 
During the last major announcements (Powerbook and IBook configs) thinksecret was pretty darned close to their predictions. I always keep a keen eye on their website, because they are fairly accurate.
 
Originally posted by Billicus
One more thing, if Apple doesn't include these charged upgrade in the future OS (think 10.3), and they are incompatible with the OS, then won't you be forced to upgrade to the newest iApps?

And what happens if they aren't compatible with my hardware??? I'll have to go out and buy a whole new computer!! It's Apple's plot to force me to upgrade my hardware I just know it!

Come on people let's not let the conjecture get out of hand.
 
Originally posted by Codemonkey

Finally, you mention how you think my car analogy is off the mark, yet there's no evidence or even a better analogy backing it up. So I guess here's a hearty pat on the back and a "good for you!".

Toodles.

How about this analogy CodeMonkey: Your car may come with tires but if you want better ones you have to buy them yourself. Apple charged for iApp upgrades in the past and they're going to continue to do so. Big deal.

TTFN
 
Future Apple PDA>>>

Sorry TS...I'll never give up on the future of the Apple PDA.

Ultra-portable computing is going to beomce increasingly important, despite the poor efforts spawned by Palm. I predict that PocketPC will overtake Palm in sales within 1 year, and Microsoft will not look back.

The Win world now has a viable, feature rich group of PDA's to choose from that sync quite nicely with their chosen working environment. Apple users have no such similar solution. And, this will become increasingly important in the lives of all computer users.

Apple will release an Ultra-portable computing solution, or face diminishing sales, once again, as buyers realize that Apple is not providing a comprehensive computing platform.



Oh, and there is no way that Apple will release a Tablet in the form-factor that has been released in the Windows world...
 
There's more to MWSF than fees for iApp upgrades.

I'll get this out of me now, anyone who said bring on the upgrade fees is totally right. Paying for an iApp is better than having no iApp because Apple isn't profitable. With any luck, the fees will be worth it and tolerable.
But there are bigger fish to fry here!
This isn't the discussion about iApps, it's the discussion about Mac World!
A faster AirPort is pretty interesting (although not nearly as interesting as other things).
What about the possibility of an Apple web browser?
Or how about a freakin' tablet? That didn't interest anybody?
I think we should start thinking about what is so cool and important that Apple would find a way to actually keep it secret for so long!
 
The interesting thing is (if the iApp upgrade rumor is true) that Apple was probably expecting this would be a very welcome announcement. They charged $50 for the iMovie2 upagrade and $20 for the iDVD2 upgrade in the past. Now they're releasing version 3 of both of those and throwing in a new version of iPhoto... all for $50 total. What a deal! Right?

It seems that a lot of folks posting on this board have forgotten or never realized there were upgrade charges for this software in the past.

Rage on.
 
It's really a good deal.

Flowbee is right, I think the bundled iApps are a good deal. It is also true, however that there are quite a few people that didn't know about the previous paid upgrade (myself included).
 
Re the car analogy above:

If your tires wear out, or you want to upgrade from a radio to a CD player, you pay for it.

The question is, if Apple didn't give away the iApps, what would you do? Pay for them from someone else. So you got a free demo of iMovie 2. You have a choice - you can still use it if you want, or you can pay $50 (apparently) for the new version and get other things too.

$50 is what third parties are charging for new transitions for iMovie, for heaven's sake. Do I hear people claiming that that is unfair? No, of course not.

Charging for an upgrade makes sound commercial sense. It's a revenue stream.
Hands up all those who work for someone who doesn't charge for what they do. Keep your hands up if you think you're gonna get paid this month.

Those people here who think that charging for them makes Macs irrelevant are forgetting why most of us use Macs, and why those who buy them choose them: ease of use. iMovie, iPhoto etc etc - if the history of the Mac were a year, these things appeared on Christmas Day. So what was so appealing the other 300-odd days?

Hang on, I'll make sense in a minute... 😉
 
Re: Future Apple PDA>>>

Originally posted by Timothy
Sorry TS...I'll never give up on the future of the Apple PDA.

Ultra-portable computing is going to beomce increasingly important, despite the poor efforts spawned by Palm. I predict that PocketPC will overtake Palm in sales within 1 year, and Microsoft will not look back.

The Win world now has a viable, feature rich group of PDA's to choose from that sync quite nicely with their chosen working environment. Apple users have no such similar solution. And, this will become increasingly important in the lives of all computer users.

Apple will release an Ultra-portable computing solution, or face diminishing sales, once again, as buyers realize that Apple is not providing a comprehensive computing platform.



Oh, and there is no way that Apple will release a Tablet in the form-factor that has been released in the Windows world...

I'm so with you there about Mobile computing, except I think you're totally wrong about the PocketPC taking over (but more on that later). I think the future of computing is destined to be an device more or less the size of an iPod, PDA, or phone, that can either be used as a phone, handheld PDA, or as a full computer. Think about it: built-in bluetooth for wireless connection to input devices, built in wireless networking, a high-bandwidth data port (the latest FireWire or USB technology), and a small video-out port like the iBook already has (so you can hook up VideoGlasses or even a folding screen - we're talking a few years in the future here).

I would take it one step further. Since mobile phones are much more widespread than any other mobile device and is the one mobile device that most people will carry with them at all times, then I think that for 90% of the public this PhonePDAComputer is all the computing power they would need. Think about it. Look at how much computing power is already packed into these phone/pda hybrids (and I'm not just talking Treo palm devices, I would include all these new Java enabled phones). As flash memory gets ever larger and cheaper, batteries longer-lasting, and mobile CPUs ever more powerful, I think the future clearly points to a single all-in-one device centered around a phone. That's why I think the PocketPC has no future. I wouldn't want to be in the Palm or Pocket PC business right now. I think they're going to get the rug completely pulled out from under them by the flood of cool new phones running Symbian and supporting Java. I guarantee you Nokia, SonyEricsson, and all the other phone makers are going to sell many, many times more of these phones than all the Palms and PocketPCs combined, and the PDA as we know it today will become a very niche market.

More about the future of computing:
Doesn't Viewsonic already have a wireless display? With wireless video technology and bluetooth you could just have your phone in your pocket, sit down at your desk, and all these wireless devices would automatically work with your pocket-size computer. For mobile use, an elegant folding keyboard with built-in trackpad, and a folding OLED screen. Maybe the folding display an keyboard even come together in one package, and you set it down on a flat surface, press a button, and it all automatically unfolds Transformer-style. Sure you have to spend a few seconds unfolding your Keyboard/Trackpad and screen, but how long does it take to boot up your laptop now? Keep in mind these mobile computers will have flash memory so they will be instant-on like PDAs are now.

It's gonna happen, folks. Only a matter of time. The only question for Apple is what this implies for the Digital Hub. My bet is that Apple WILL come out with some kind of mobile device. It will still market its Macs as a digital hub, but the main value they will provide will be much, much greater storage, and of course a larger display. Apple would be wise to start making its mobile device now so it can continue to develop it and improve it as the market shifts more and more toward mobile computers.
 
Re: There's more to MWSF than fees for iApp upgrades.

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
What about the possibility of an Apple web browser?
Or how about a freakin' tablet? That didn't interest anybody?

Apple browser: Virtually inevitable as part of Apple's long-term "freedom from Microsoft's evil clutches plan," but not terribly exciting.

Tablet computer: No proven market. Potentially a huge mistake, and the market is not kind to Apple when it makes even small mistakes.
 
I agree with IJ Reilly with the point that there is no proven market for the tablet, which is what's so good. Right now, Tablet PCs are ridiculously stupid in design, Apple has a very rare chance to innovate something before it has even entered a market.
Obviously, any Apple tablet would be geared toward the home user, I'd love to see this as it would be something totally new to the computing world.
You say it's a potentially a huge mistake. If Apple plays its cards right, it's only a potential mistake. So was the Newton and so was the iPod. You can't innovate without some stumbles along the way.
Steve Jobs's designs and schemes are among the best ever seen in the computing world. He's had few faliures (the most notable being the Cube and the Flower Power and Blue Dalmatian iMacs), but has successfully turned Apple around and introduced revolutionary products, iPod included.
I personally would rather see a PDA/DLD-Hybrid shaped like the iPod, similar to what lmalave was starting to describe.
But if Apple does introduce a tablet, I have confidence that it will be a viable product in the home market (although that price tag, $1100-1500, sounds a little high). There's nobody better for the job than Steve Jobs, he has the vision to make this thing work.
 
tablet shmablet(?)

I think the Tablet idea in the PC world is the stupidest thing that's come around in a long time. The market where this is viable is so slim that I can't see why all these companies are being yanked around by MS to get one out.

Now if they had some sort of mini-tablet/PDA hybrid, that could work. But Apple doesn't have much of a presence in warehouse tracking, medical and hospital areas, etc. ... I just think a Mac Tablet is an awful idea for such a focused company such as Apple.


Damnit, pyrotoaster said pretty much what I did. Beat me to it.
 
Originally posted by Codemonkey


I feel the same way... I always take into account the total package... which helps in justifying the steep-ish prices (like everyone seems to say: feature for feature the Mac is a better deal... right?). So by charging for these once-included features (irregardless of upgrades pricing in the past), you've detracted from the overal value of the Mac platform. Kicked the platform right out from under it, in fact.

By charging for every little thing and for all intents and purposes keeping their hardware prices the same is pretty underhanded. Here's an example...

2003 [insert car make and model here]*:
$24 000

* This does not include tires, or mirrors.


No it's more like this

2003 [insert car make and model here]
$24,000.00

*This does include tires, and mirrors...but if new and better ones come along...you have to buy them.

Hmm...well, that sounds reasonable doesn't it. Your STILL getting the iApps with a system...you just pay when something new and better comes out. It's like that with everything else...software is different I guess. I mean, think about all the bundled software (FREE) that comes with any computer both PCs and Macs...you don't get free upgrades to all of those, do you? Why not....they were free on the system! Actually they weren't, they were included in the price of the system. If you want the newest iApps...buy and new system and then they will be "free". Otherwise, you pay for the updates.
 
Exactly!

A tablet/PDA hybrid! Good, arnette! The reason Tablet PCs are bad is because they're laptops with screens you can write on. The tablet needs to be a small, fun gizmo. It has to have Inkwell and a powerful, but easy to use interface.
I'll admit that the reported price range on these tablets doesn't support the hybrid theory, but if they do materialize, they will be different than those wacky Wintel tablets. Apple doesn't want to add anything to or manipulate its laptop line. The recent updates to the iBooks and TiBooks are a good sign here.
 
still...

Even if some kind of mini-tablet came out, I wouldn't be a buyer. I really don't have much use for something like that other than just to show off videos to co-workers and friends (just for the 'wow' factor).
Some of the apps that the Pocket PCs are running now are pretty impressive. I could envision a use for Inkwell in something like that for Apple. A completely writeable screen surface with Mac OS interface... pretty neat. Admittedly, these ideas make me smile but I have no idea how that would practically fit into Apple's grand scheme. I don't have high hopes for a machine like this but all of ThinkSecret's barkings makes me wonder about it.....

On a separate note, I'm excited about a new AirPort. Yea!😀
 
Originally posted by jholzner



No it's more like this

2003 [insert car make and model here]
$24,000.00

*This does include tires, and mirrors...but if new and better ones come along...you have to buy them.

Hmm...well, that sounds reasonable doesn't it. Your STILL getting the iApps with a system...you just pay when something new and better comes out. It's like that with everything else...software is different I guess. I mean, think about all the bundled software (FREE) that comes with any computer both PCs and Macs...you don't get free upgrades to all of those, do you? Why not....they were free on the system! Actually they weren't, they were included in the price of the system. If you want the newest iApps...buy and new system and then they will be "free". Otherwise, you pay for the updates.

I bought "new and better". I bought Jaguar. And .Mac. Bleeding edge, n'est pas? Apparently not. All I'm saying is: where does it end?

Of course, nothing's free. However, included is included. It henceforth becomes a "package".

Especially when various iApps are mentioned in the 150+ new features of Jaguar.

At any rate. The news in general is exciting, and it doesn't say _all_ iApps. So color me positive.

And, from a personal perspective, depending on what comes out I'll be trading my Snow iMac in for a new spinning color widget thingy, which should come with new crap anyway.

Oh well. Apparently the time it took me to drive home was long enough to pretty much render this thread obsolete anyhow.

Toodles.
 
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