This is how we know Apple knows the touchbar and butterfly keyboards are failures

[DeanL]

its a solution in search of a problem and its implementation made using it less efficient (for many users) then those laptops w/o TB.

I wish people would stop saying that. Not every change is a solution to solve a problem. For most of the users, the top row was useless. I never ever used it except for changing the brightness.
Now, it has more utility for me. If people want the good old function keys, they can have that too.

 

[nouveau_redneck]

We can't define either of these as success or failures since we don't have any idea by what metric Apple is measuring them. If MacBook Pro sales tanked for TB and BF keyboard models once they were introduced and persisted then we could surmise that, but there have been 4 model years of both of these and Apple is still selling them...

With respect to the TB, Apple, themselves, do not have the data to properly assess how popular it is.

The 15 inch model is only available with it, so customers that want/need the 15 inch, have no choice. So, Apple does not have the data.

The 13 inch non-TB model does not give them the data either, as many purchases are probably influenced by some customers wanting the lowest possible price point in the MBP line up.

 

[bill-p]

Well, while some would be quick to point out the lack of a desktop equivalence to Touch Bar and Touch ID, I see it differently. We haven't gotten a keyboard with those features because of two things:

1. Bluetooth is not going to work. Too slow and latency too high. You'd have to have the thing plugged in all the time, so technology is not quite there yet for Apple to create a wireless Touch Bar keyboard. Some may be okay with having the thing plugged in but Apple has had wireless keyboards for a long time now, so it makes no sense to introduce a new keyboard that requires you to plug it in, especially when Apple themselves is moving towards wireless for a lot of other things.

2. Would you buy a Touch Bar wireless keyboard if it was $250 or would you rather buy an iPad/iPod Touch instead? Speaking strictly as a consumer? And seriously, the million dollar question, even, is: would you buy a Touch Bar wireless keyboard that has butterfly key mechanism? For more than $200? I don't think anyone on this board will answer "yes" to that question at all. So there you go.

I too do not use the Touch Bar at all and I don't really see the point to it, but I doubt Apple is just going to drop it considering they have included the Touch Bar in 4 generations of their MacBook Pro (2016 to 2019) now. If the 2019 or 2018 MacBook Pro dropped it, then so be it. But even the 2019 MacBook Pro has it. So it's here to stay.

I think what the future will be for Apple is going to be very different from what most doomsayers are predicting. I think they will either:

a. Continue with the Touch Bar, try to find some kind of extra functionality for it, and add it into more of their computers. Also slowly raising the base price for everything because... T2 and Touch Bar costs extra. Honestly, they seem to be headed in this direction already.

b. Expand the Touch Bar and essentially turn it into an extra display, much like what Intel, ASUS, Lenovo and many other manufacturers are trying to do. Seems pretty unlike Apple to follow someone else's lead, but... hey, it can happen.

Because honestly, they have no other choice.

Or, if they even want to drop it, then the solution has already presented itself: they'll have to repeat what they did with the trash can Mac Pro: stop updating the MacBook Pro for years, and then suddenly come out with a new radical design (read: cheese grater) that doesn't include butterfly keys or Touch Bar. It'll have everything you guys have ever asked for, the CPU, RAM, and even GPU will be modular and switchable (albeit with proprietary connectors), it'll also have thicker profile with more room for airflow, have a billion tiny fans to prevent it from ever throttling down due to thermals, and it'll sport a 8K ultra retina XXXDR display with over 9000 nits of brightness. It'll also cost like... 3x more for the base model.

But hey, it's basically what you guys are asking for.

 

[AppleHaterLover]

Good ole Jony Ive is to proud to admit the mistake though, and Tim Crook is to weak to stand up to him.

Props for the "Tim Crook". Made my day

 

[Teej guy]

This is how I know it's a failure:

I bought a 2018 refurb two weeks ago. The enter key has already stopped working correctly. I've used it half the time with an external keyboard.

I've owned a 2007 MBP, two 2011s, and a 2015. Never had a problem with any of the keyboards. Spiledl a whole cup of tea directly on the keyboard of the 2007. Ripped the battery out, let it dry for a few days...it still runs to this day.

 

[maflynn]

I wish people would stop saying that. Not every change is a solution to solve a problem.

But it is,

Apple put a technology in place that made usage, ergonomics, and functionality significantly less efficient. Its hard to defend a solution that causes the user to stop what they're doing, look down, move their hands off the keys and interact with the TB, where as you could use shortcut keys or the mouse and remain working. There are some tasks that are enhanced with the TB but they are few are far between. Others have touted a BTT which is a great app, no question but what I find is odd, is that Apple hasn't done anything to enhance the TB by software, or hardware.

Again, there's no problem that existed for which the TB solved, its not fixing anything and imo it makes life worse. Sure you can access your emojis faster, but the sad thing is that was one of the major features highlighting the TB back in 2016 and not much has changed since then

 

[DeanL]

Apple put a technology in place that made usage, ergonomics, and functionality significantly less efficient. Its hard to defend a solution that causes the user to stop what they're doing, look down, move their hands off the keys and interact with the TB

For whom? That's my question. All we hear is the MacRumours forum echo chamber, but personally, it hasn't made anything less efficient. The Touch Bar adds shortcuts that makes it more convenient for me than static keys I seldom used.