This is what the Apple TV could have been

[Supermallet]

If people want mkv support, more codecs, 4K now then you don't get the new Apple TV. It's as simple as that and no amount of second guessing will change that. Every media player has its pros and cons. Apple products are not for everyone. Heck a Kodi unofficial Android TV will give you every possible codec possible if that is what you are looking for. A Roku will give you certain things but not access to iTunes. If you want a multiple codec player then the ATV market not be for you. This constant request for the mkv container is so strange coming from people in an Apple forum. There's nothing wrong with MP4, etc... except perhaps it doesn't appear as the container of choice in HD torrent sites.

As I've said previously, the Roku is a fine player. It has a poor warranty, generally underpowered hardware ( at least the Rokus I had up to the Roku 3- can't say about the 4) and a bunch of channels that are hardly stellar. It does not have the developer support of Apple, Google or even Amazon. In my opinion, and this is just speculation, it has no future. It's a quick fix for now with a really weak evolutionary path.

As far as 4K it is still evolving. In particular streaming and wireless casting for it are not ready. Apple doesn't carry any and other streaming sites have next to no content for it, none with HDR as far as I know ( could be wrong here as that seems to be yet another issue with 4K).

I doubt Apple will ever support mkv, xvid, avi, divx or other containers. They have settled on a very good standard and really have no need to. It's not as though there is a shortage of players for iDevices that can handle these containers with no loss of quality. Good riddance to all these crazy containers and codecs. The world should be settling on fewer and whatever the standard ends up being it won't be mkv for many of the same reasons you will never see Kodi on an iDevice ( unless altered).

The new ATV doesn't even handle HEVC, which will become the new video standard.

And no, there's nothing wrong with MP4, but flexibility is a virtue in a device like this.

Someone mentioned Plex can handle all file types and containers, but Plex has to transcode the files to a type that's compatible on the device. If the device natively handles MKV, no transcode is needed.

As for Roku, specifically, they have Google Play and Amazon, so I don't know how you can say it doesn't have their support.

The ATV seems like a really nice piece of hardware. The Siri integration will be awesome. But some of the omissions from this gen seem puzzling, or at least they would seem puzzling if it weren't obvious that next year there'll be a new Apple TV that addresses the shortcomings of this one.

 

[pmcdunnough]

The new ATV doesn't even handle HEVC, which will become the new video standard.

And no, there's nothing wrong with MP4, but flexibility is a virtue in a device like this.

Someone mentioned Plex can handle all file types and containers, but Plex has to transcode the files to a type that's compatible on the device. If the device natively handles MKV, no transcode is needed.

As for Roku, specifically, they have Google Play and Amazon, so I don't know how you can say it doesn't have their support.

The ATV seems like a really nice piece of hardware. The Siri integration will be awesome. But some of the omissions from this gen seem puzzling, or at least they would seem puzzling if it weren't obvious that next year there'll be a new Apple TV that addresses the shortcomings of this one.

The Roku does not have iTunes support.
It is not Android nor iOS nor Windows. No AirPlay to speak of, no large developer community. It is a nice player that adds services as needed.

Flexibility is not always a plus. It often increases complexity. It really sounds like a more open platform is what you need.

Plex need not transcode mkv. It usually only requires a remux which uses little cpu and does not result in any loss. I don't know where you got the transcoding information. Of course it depends on the client.

The 4K video "standard" is still on flux so you can't say what the final version will look like.

 

[Supermallet]

The Roku does not have iTunes support.
It is not Android nor iOS not Windows. No AirPlay to speak of, no large developer community. It is a nice player that adds services as needed.

Flexibility is not always a plus. It often increases complexity. It really sounds like a more open platform is what you need.

Plex need not transcode mkv. It usually only requires a remux which uses little cpu and does not result in any loss. I don't know where you got the transcoding information. Of course it depends on the client.

The 4K video "standard" is still on flux so you can't say what the final version will look like.

I specifically omitted Apple services from the Roku because only the Apple TV offers Apple services. Similarly I didn't mention 4K either.

Plex may need to run a transcode depending on what format the original file is in and which formats the end device can handle. The more formats the end device can handle, the less Plex needs to do, whether it be a remux or a full transcode.

I own so few items bought through iTunes that Apple services are not a huge selling point for me. Compatibility with Amazon is a much bigger need for me, as I have Prime. If Amazon makes an app for the Apple TV, I'll get the next version, the one that can handle HVEC. MKV support isn't as big of a deal to me as HVEC. As I said, it will become the new video standard and it benefits 720p/1080p content as much as it benefits 4K.

 

[pmcdunnough]

Why support everything under the sun when there are a few codecs that are more than adequate? Plex does not have to transcode mkv containers provided the streams are standard. It just makes no sense to keep encouraging the use of all these different codecs.

If Apple services are not important to you then you don't need an ATV. Pretty simple actually. In particular, an Amazon Fire TV might be the way to go except for its terrible Plex client. You could, however, run Kodi. I too like Prime which is why I have a Fire TV which I far prefer to the Roku 3 I used to use.

My replies have been in the context of the subject title and not meant to convince you to buy whatever. I just don't care much for Roku and am not going to spend time building an entertainment environment around it.

 

[Rigby]

This constant request for the mkv container is so strange coming from people in an Apple forum. There's nothing wrong with MP4, etc... except perhaps it doesn't appear as the container of choice in HD torrent sites.

Part of the problem is that the media formats that Apple supports in MP4 containers are very limited. Most glaring is the lack of support for multi-channel audio formats other than AC3. Before the ATV 4 they didn't even support 7.1 channel audio (the ATV4 will finally support Dolby Digital+ for Netflix). I archived my HD-DVDs when the format was abandoned so I could continue playing the movies after my player died. Apple-compatible MP4 was simply not a choice, since re-encoding the high-bitrate audio tracks to AC3 would have created conversion losses. So I chose MKV with multi-channel FLAC audio. Almost every media player or smart TV/Blu-ray can play back the files without problems, only the Apple TV can't. I'll never understand why Apple doesn't even support their own high-quality format (ALAC) in multi-channel configurations.

 

[Supermallet]

Why support everything under the sun when there are a few codecs that are more than adequate? Plex does not have to transcode mkv containers provided the streams are standard. It just makes no sense to keep encouraging the use of all these different codecs.

If Apple services are not important to you then you don't need an ATV. Pretty simple actually. In particular, an Amazon Fire TV might be the way to go except for its terrible Plex client. You could, however, run Kodi. I too like Prime which is why I have a Fire TV which I far prefer to the Roku 3 I used to use.

My replies have been in the context of the subject title and not meant to convince you to buy whatever. I just don't care much for Roku and am not going to spend time building an entertainment environment around it.

Different strokes for different folks. I have built my entertainment center around a Roku 3 and have had no problems with it. I'm waiting to see how the new players are before deciding to upgrade. I may even wait to next year to see if Apple releases an ATV that support HEVC. Again, MKV aside, there's no reason Apple should be releasing a media box that can't support HVEC. Amazon and Roku have both outflanked them, and running HVEC through Plex onto a device that doesn't support h.265 WILL result in a transcode.

The thing is, I want an Apple TV. I love Airplay and Home Sharing and the Siri integration looks fantastic. But I don't have many iTunes purchases, so I don't HAVE to have an Apple TV, and the Roku 4 looks like an attractive option in the meanwhile.

Eventually Apple will have to produce an ATV that handles HVEC. It may not come until they're ready to put in 4K support, but I'm okay waiting until then.

 

[pmcdunnough]

H.265 is usually associated with streaming 4K video. It is not used with current streaming video. I'm not sure why you would include hardware decoding of H.265 at this time when it's just not around. That would just be an added expense due to licensing costs. In addition the compression algorithm is not yet complete. I haven't compared h.264 and h.265 on HD video files. Is the quality the same and do you still achieve a much smaller size?

I agree that the Roku 3 is nice. It does what it is designed to do really well. The Roku 4 seems to be much nicer than the 3, though bigger. It's not a bad system to have at the his time. I just think the ATV will really evolve with the App Store. Of course it will take time and no doubt better hardware will appear down the line. That is the nature of media players. They all do a pretty good job displaying video at this time. I just find it interesting to be part of an evolving system, especially at the beginning. Others prefer to wait until things stabilize. That was part of the fun of Google TV which unfortunately never took off and the Fire TV which unfortunately eventually had a dreadful Plex client.

Yes h.265 video will result in Plex transcoding. If you have a lot of those then you wouldn't just have an ATV. Whether or not the h.265 of 2017 is the same as the one now is not clear to me. I have an "Android TV" player which has support for hardware decoding of that compression. By the time video is available in that format it will be interesting to see if in fact the player will work on them.

Absolutely, different people gravitate towards different approaches. There is no optimal media player. At least interesting ones are now coming out. There was a period of time where the media player landscape was bleak.

 

[Rigby]

H.265 is usually associated with streaming 4K video. It is not used with current streaming video. I'm not sure why you would include hardware decoding of H.265 at this time when it's just not around.

Amazon is starting to stream 1080p video in H.265 with the new Fire TV. Others won't be far behind, since the cost savings achieved through the increased efficiency can be significant.

 

[2010mini]

Roku's have always been solid devices. They offer the most content and a ton of channels. They were first to have cool features like the headphone jack in the remote, universal search, and now the find my remote feature. That being said, I'll probably still go with the new Apple TV. Roku's downfall has always been software. The UI has always looked outdated. Apple's tvOS looks much more polished and now we will also have an App Store and universal search with Siri. Plus from the demos it looks blazing fast. I'm not really worried about the lack of 4K. I have a Panasonic 60" plasma tv and have no intention of upgrading it anytime soon. A TV is a big expense and there's not a ton of 4K content as it is. Not to mention it will use a lot of bandwidth to stream 4K.

I will finally be happy with my tv situation once I can use a native Plex app on the new Apple TV. It'll be a bonus if Plex can get added to the Siri search. AirPlay is a nice bonus too if you use Apple products. I've been using a Chromecast for the past two years.

I believe FanTV offered universal search before Roku did.

 

[fieldsphotos]

"It’s possible Roku and HBO will still wait until the Roku 4"

That doesn't sound like anything =/

I just got an email rom Roku that HBO now is available. Looks like it's already able to be downloaded: https://channelstore.roku.com/details/61322/hbo-now

 

[pmcdunnough]

Amazon is starting to stream 1080p video in H.265 with the new Fire TV. Others won't be far behind, since the cost savings achieved through the increased efficiency can be significant.

You Tube on the other hand has a different codec. Which 1080p videos are streamed using h.265? I watch a fair amount of Prime and have never seen that on my Fire TV. They are planning to stream some 4K using that codec.

In any case streaming using h.265 implies licensing fees. I don't know how one could calculate any savings since many players would have trouble with such high compression.

The whole h.265/4K issue is important to a small number of people. The ATV has more pressing issues to deal with.

 

[snowmoon]

I have the roku 3 and it's ok, but hardly what it could have been. They really dropped the ball since they were positioned in the living room and had a good WAF long before others. The problem is they never figured out how to open their platform to native development despite promises. The ability to was shared only with select partners and everyone else was stuck with the dog that is bright script development. They have plenty of channels, but few are of any real quality.

At over $100 I have a feeling that the roku 4 will live on for a few years as a specialty device for those that need 4K service, but will quickly fade into the background as the fire tv or Apple TV gain that feature. There are no exclusives on the platform and they will quickly find the other platforms eating their base.

 

[Arran]

ROKU 4 Announced today and available for Pre-order.

http://uk.engadget.com/2015/10/06/roku-4-4k/

Not moved by the technical stuff, but I do like the dedicated "remote finder" button on the main box to make the remote beep.

Apple take note.

 

[nebo1ss]

Interesting that Roku added optical, Apple takes it away. Is optical new for Roku? Kind of nice of them to support something that seems to be on its way out.
I suspect Apple will kill the ethernet port on the next version of the Apple Tv

Fact is that some people are in the same position i am in. I have an Upmarket AVR system that was pretty expensive when i got it and it does everything for me except it does not support HDMI switching. i don't actually need HDMI switching since my Television does that for me. However since I have six optical inputs on my Amplifier I use them for Audio decoding.

i will certainly be getting the ROKU 4. More choice is good.

 

[nebo1ss]

I have the roku 3 and it's ok, but hardly what it could have been. They really dropped the ball since they were positioned in the living room and had a good WAF long before others. The problem is they never figured out how to open their platform to native development despite promises. The ability to was shared only with select partners and everyone else was stuck with the dog that is bright script development. They have plenty of channels, but few are of any real quality.

At over $100 I have a feeling that the roku 4 will live on for a few years as a specialty device for those that need 4K service, but will quickly fade into the background as the fire tv or Apple TV gain that feature. There are no exclusives on the platform and they will quickly find the other platforms eating their base.

I Think what you just said is that you expect Apple and Fire TV to continue to develop the features that ROKU have now but that Roku will stand still. Hardly likely.

 

[snowmoon]

I Think what you just said is that you expect Apple and Fire TV to continue to develop the features that ROKU have now but that Roku will stand still. Hardly likely.

Roku is already behind and it doesn't have any killer feature or app that can't be replicated, easily. Even if they start now they are unlikely to develop a reasonable ecosystem that can compete with Apple, Amazon, and/or google. Roku promised to open their native platform years ago and have been forced to backpedal leaving brightscript as the sole development tool. This leaves the device as a decent media consumption platform, but not an interactive platform and lacks a base of hundred of thousands of developers in the other platforms.

Searching a job engine for US jobs revealed 8 hits for brightscript of which one was from roku and at least one was a dupe. iOS developers revealed over 8k hits.

 

[Rigby]

You Tube on the other hand has a different codec. Which 1080p videos are streamed using h.265? I watch a fair amount of Prime and have never seen that on my Fire TV.

All 1080p content will eventually be available in H.265. Of course they will also have an alternative H.264 stream as long as there is still a significant number of legacy devices.

In any case streaming using h.265 implies licensing fees. I don't know how one could calculate any savings since many players would have trouble with such high compression.

The savings come from network bandwidth (which the content providers obviously have to pay for). Depending on the content, H.265 can save up to 50% bandwidth at equivalent quality compared to H.264, or increase the quality while maintaining the same bandwidth. Players with H.265 support have no problems with "such high compression".

Licensing fees are still under negotiation and will sort themselves out.

 

[Rigby]

Roku is already behind and it doesn't have any killer feature or app that can't be replicated, easily. Even if they start now they are unlikely to develop a reasonable ecosystem that can compete with Apple, Amazon, and/or google.

Ecosystem for what? Their channel ecosystem is much bigger than either of the other ones. What other types of apps do you expect to be successful on a TV streaming box?

Searching a job engine for US jobs revealed 8 hits for brightscript of which one was from roku and at least one was a dupe. iOS developers revealed over 8k hits.

Of course the vast majority of those are development jobs for Apple's mobile devices, not for tvOS.

 

[2010mini]

What the OP is not taking into account is the live TV streaming service that is coming to the new Apple TV. Which other streaming box, other than FanTV, provides live TV content tied into system search? I am very certain Siri will be deeply integrated into any Live TV streaming service Apple will offer. And I would be very surprised if cloud based DVR is not included.

Something to think about.

 

[mattopotamus]

What the OP is not taking into account is the live TV streaming service that is coming to the new Apple TV. Which other streaming box, other than FanTV, provides live TV content tied into system search? I am very certain Siri will be deeply integrated into any Live TV streaming service Apple will offer. And I would be very surprised if cloud based DVR is not included.

Something to think about.

Live TV streaming? What are you talking about?

The new ATV is just like the old one, but with a new UI and upgraded specs. It still relies on apps, and many/most require a subscription to cable or a standalone premium service.

 

[snowmoon]

Ecosystem for what? Their channel ecosystem is much bigger than either of the other ones. What other types of apps do you expect to be successful on a TV streaming box?

Roku claims 1700 channels and Amazon claims over 3000, I could not find a good source for android tv. If Apple does not best both of those number in 6 months I would be shocked.

 

[oneMadRssn]

Roku claims 1700 channels and Amazon claims over 3000, I could not find a good source for android tv. If Apple does not best both of those number in 6 months I would be shocked.

Those numbers aren't very telling. In Roku's case, about 1500 of those 1700 channels are super super niche (birdwatching channel, christian remote control helicopter association channel, etc.). Indeed, many of them are YouTube channels remade into an independent app.

 

[snowmoon]

Those numbers aren't very telling. In Roku's case, about 1500 of those 1700 channels are super super niche (birdwatching channel, christian remote control helicopter association channel, etc.). Indeed, many of them are YouTube channels remade into an independent app.

I do understand that. Personally, once you click past the featured few dozen channels the quality goes down quickly. That said, I'm sure the Amazon store has it's share of stinkers as well so I was sticking with the numbers that each store published rather than make some subjective qualitative comparison. The comment was meant to show that the 1700 channels was hardly the largest ecosystem and I'm positive it will be dwarfed within 6 months by the new Apple TV.

 

[a7thton]

Roku's have always been solid devices. They offer the most content and a ton of channels. They were first to have cool features like the headphone jack in the remote, universal search, and now the find my remote feature. That being said, I'll probably still go with the new Apple TV. Roku's downfall has always been software. The UI has always looked outdated. Apple's tvOS looks much more polished and now we will also have an App Store and universal search with Siri. .

I've heard others speak negatively about the Roku's UI and I don't get it.

For one, it doesn't look *bad*. It just isn't flashy.

It is the norm-core of UIs.

Secondly, how long are you in the Roku UI? You only use the Roku UI to launch the apps. Then you are using the UI of the app itself.

 

[oneMadRssn]

I do understand that. Personally, once you click past the featured few dozen channels the quality goes down quickly. That said, I'm sure the Amazon store has it's share of stinkers as well so I was sticking with the numbers that each store published rather than make some subjective qualitative comparison. The comment was meant to show that the 1700 channels was hardly the largest ecosystem and I'm positive it will be dwarfed within 6 months by the new Apple TV.

Yea, I agree with that.