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Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,504
31,815
My Twitter feed is full of techies at WWDC convinced that Apple doesn’t really mean what it says when it says Mac and iOS aren’t merging. I think this is wishful thinking on the part of those who want such a device. But if they’re right wouldn’t this essentially be creating another inbetween device - something inbetween an iPad and a Mac. Seems to me that would be incredibly confusing. If this is compelling and worth doing then just turn the iPad Pro into this device. Don’t create another product category that would just confuse people and make Apple’s product lines even more cluttered. Thoughts?
 

subjonas

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2014
5,682
6,067
I think merging them would be all kinds of compromise. I wouldn’t want such a device personally.
I feel bad for Apple. How much clearer can they be?
7A4BC944-772F-46B9-AF4C-0CE20FACC56D.jpeg

Yet people are still thinking:
28ADA2AA-CA0D-425C-B1EF-0D2EDA0667EC.jpeg
 

akash.nu

macrumors G4
May 26, 2016
10,825
16,944
They’ll probably kill the iPad line if such a device were to be released.

Given Craig has officially declared a big NO to that idea, I think those people, on your Twitter, are just looking for anything to tweet about.
 
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Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,504
31,815
I think merging them would be all kinds of compromise. I wouldn’t want such a device personally.
I feel bad for Apple. How much clearer can they be?
But this is why some are throwing out this mythical other device. No, they say, Apple isn’t merging Mac and iPad (and macOS and iOS) but what if they’re creating a 3rd device and completely new OS. To me that’s lunacy. Complete confusion to satisfy a very niche set of users who either want a touch screen laptop or want iPad to become more like the Mac with mouse/trackpad/cursor support. I know some have argued iPad needs it’s own OS but I still think that would only appeal to a niche user base (mostly techies who want iPad to support podcasting or whatever). To me the last thing Apple needs is another software platform to maintain.
 
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Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
6,146
6,999
As a slight tangent to this topic iPad apps on Mac is probably worse than a touchscreen Mac - with a touchscreen, not everything has to be optimised for touch, it’s just a secondary option for interacting with your content on screen, the mouse and keyboard are still there. With porting iOS apps to Mac you’re literally taking something designed from the ground up for touch and retrofitting mouse and keyboard controls. Imo Apple are being a bit hypocritical in that regard.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,504
31,815
They’ll probably kill the iPad line if such a device were to be released.

Given Craig has officially declared a big NO to that idea, I think those people, on your Twitter, are just looking for anything to tweet about.
I hope they don’t ruin iPad just to satisfy a niche developer crowd. If I want laptop capabilities I’ll buy a laptop.
 
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Greenmeenie

macrumors 68020
Jan 14, 2013
2,083
3,212
If Apple felt they could truly create a seemless iOS/MacOS hybrid, trust me, they would. Right now they are testing the waters a bit with software cross overs/integration like they announced at WWDC...but thats also to make it easier on people who use a mac and have an iphone & or iPad as well. Apple is all about creating a seemless software/hardware integration. So it makes sense.

But just because Apple says it doesnt make sense to fully combine the two or come out with a laptop/ipad hybrid doesn’t mean they won’t. Apple is always saying something doesn’t make sense or they won’t do something and then eventually doing it. As technology improves things change. I could totally see Apple coming out with a hybrid machine someday. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for it...but i could totally see it happening.
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,346
13,149
where hip is spoken
If Apple felt they could truly create a seemless iOS/MacOS hybrid, trust me, they would. Right now they are testing the waters a bit with software cross overs/integration like they announced at WWDC...but thats also to make it easier on people who use a mac and have an iphone & or iPad as well. Apple is all about creating a seemless software/hardware integration. So it makes sense.
I disagree. It's not that Apple is not able to make a seamless iOS/macOS hybrid, it is that they have no desire to. Currently, they're positioned very well to selling more than 1 computing device to customers. I'm pretty sure that many who own an Apple notebook also own an Apple tablet. These customers represent a dual stream of income for them. What incentive do they have to combine those two?

The "seamlessness" that you refer to is BETWEEN Apple products, not merging them all.

I'm calling it here and now, I believe that Apple will ONLY produce such a hybrid device IF their competition is able to produce one that poses a viable challenger to their existing product line. Apple held off on the iPad Mini until Android tablet makers started selling 7-8" tablets in significant numbers. Apple held off producing a phablet until Android smartphone makers started selling phablets in significant numbers. The most effective way to get Apple to produce such an iOS/macOS hybrid, is to buy a competing product like a convertible chromebook or 2-in-1 Windows device. (except for the Surface... THAT would be shooting yourself in the foot)

In the meantime, Apple will do what Apple does, disparage the competition that is offering something that they don't. They disparaged phablets and smaller tablets until they were forced to deal with the reality of their popularity.


But just because Apple says it doesnt make sense to fully combine the two or come out with a laptop/ipad hybrid doesn’t mean they won’t. Apple is always saying something doesn’t make sense or they won’t do something and then eventually doing it. As technology improves things change. I could totally see Apple coming out with a hybrid machine someday. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for it...but i could totally see it happening.
I agree. See above as for WHEN they would produce such a device.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,504
31,815
I disagree. It's not that Apple is not able to make a seamless iOS/macOS hybrid, it is that they have no desire to. Currently, they're positioned very well to selling more than 1 computing device to customers. I'm pretty sure that many who own an Apple notebook also own an Apple tablet. These customers represent a dual stream of income for them. What incentive do they have to combine those two?

The "seamlessness" that you refer to is BETWEEN Apple products, not merging them all.

I'm calling it here and now, I believe that Apple will ONLY produce such a hybrid device IF their competition is able to produce one that poses a viable challenger to their existing product line. Apple held off on the iPad Mini until Android tablet makers started selling 7-8" tablets in significant numbers. Apple held off producing a phablet until Android smartphone makers started selling phablets in significant numbers. The most effective way to get Apple to produce such an iOS/macOS hybrid, is to buy a competing product like a convertible chromebook or 2-in-1 Windows device. (except for the Surface... THAT would be shooting yourself in the foot)

In the meantime, Apple will do what Apple does, disparage the competition that is offering something that they don't. They disparaged phablets and smaller tablets until they were forced to deal with the reality of their popularity.



I agree. See above as for WHEN they would produce such a device.
I still think the iPad mini was more about placating investors than the competition. The only tablet really selling in real volume when the Mini dropped was the Kindle Fire. But investors were obsessed a put it and Apple was DOOMED if they didn’t make a smaller tablet. Android tablets are basically dead now, except maybe in places like China where people buy cheap ones and use them as TVs. Apple not selling a 2-1 is probably more about them being stubborn (and probably still believing it’s not the right way to go) than thinking they can sell you two devices instead of one. I’ll bet a large number of iPad owners don’t own a Mac.
 

Eric5273

macrumors 6502a
Apr 12, 2009
771
503
New Jersey
Apple’s vision is not to have all your computing needs revolve around one device, but instead to have them revolve around one single platform (iCloud) regardless of which device you are using. So while many consumers see an advantage in owning one single device to take care of all of their computing needs, Apple sees things differently. They see a world where you have many devices, each specifically tailored to a specific task or need, all of which sync to iCloud and work in conjunction with each other.
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,346
13,149
where hip is spoken
I still think the iPad mini was more about placating investors than the competition. The only tablet really selling in real volume when the Mini dropped was the Kindle Fire. But investors were obsessed a put it and Apple was DOOMED if they didn’t make a smaller tablet.
Investors wouldn't have been obsessed with a smaller tablet if there wasn't a market for them. Investors were responding to the sales of smaller Android tablets which was notable, expecially since all attempts at larger iPad-sized tablets failed.


Android tablets are basically dead now, except maybe in places like China where people buy cheap ones and use them as TVs.
Correct. That is why Apple stopped the more frequent updating of the Mini. There's no longer any competition.

Apple not selling a 2-1 is probably more about them being stubborn (and probably still believing it’s not the right way to go) than thinking they can sell you two devices instead of one. I’ll bet a large number of iPad owners don’t own a Mac.
iPad owners not owning a Mac is not the same as Mac owners owning an iPad. On the surface it sounds the same, but it is a bit different. But we agree that Apple is not doing it because of a lack of desire, not a technical hurdle that prevents them from doing it.
 

DNichter

macrumors G3
Apr 27, 2015
9,385
11,183
Philadelphia, PA
I think they are creating a super thin clam shell device that runs iOS, but it will have the ability to run these new Marzipan apps that will eventually be created for macOS. The device will likely have all touch screen keyboard area that changes and adapts to the app being used. This is essentially where those folded screen iPhone rumors come in. Just my gut feeling. "Hybrid" only when it comes to apps, not necessarily a platform/OS.
 

akash.nu

macrumors G4
May 26, 2016
10,825
16,944
iPad owners not owning a Mac is not the same as Mac owners owning an iPad. On the surface it sounds the same, but it is a bit different. But we agree that Apple is not doing it because of a lack of desire, not a technical hurdle that prevents them from doing it.

Apple is in a very well placed stage to be able to merge the two. Microsoft had to rewrite the whole OS to do that because existing Windows Mobile just wasn’t good enough but the whole iOS is written on top of macOS so given the correct drive they can definitely do it but I agree with your view. There’s no incentive for Apple in doing that.
 
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sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,346
13,149
where hip is spoken
Apple is in a very well placed stage to be able to merge the two. Microsoft had to rewrite the whole OS to do that because existing Windows Mobile just wasn’t good enough but the whole iOS is written on top of macOS so given the correct drive they can definitely do it but I agree with your view. There’s no incentive for Apple in doing that.
Exactly! The rich iOS ecosystem is far ahead of Android tablet apps, chromeOS apps, and even Windows Modern UI apps.

Producing 2-in-1 hardware is relatively easy... but having software to exploit that platform is far different and far more difficult, and Apple already has the "hard part" done.
 
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Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,504
31,815
Investors wouldn't have been obsessed with a smaller tablet if there wasn't a market for them. Investors were responding to the sales of smaller Android tablets which was notable, expecially since all attempts at larger iPad-sized tablets failed.



Correct. That is why Apple stopped the more frequent updating of the Mini. There's no longer any competition.


iPad owners not owning a Mac is not the same as Mac owners owning an iPad. On the surface it sounds the same, but it is a bit different. But we agree that Apple is not doing it because of a lack of desire, not a technical hurdle that prevents them from doing it.
What Android tablets were selling in volume in 2012?
[doublepost=1528405635][/doublepost]
Exactly! The rich iOS ecosystem is far ahead of Android tablet apps, chromeOS apps, and even Windows Modern UI apps.

Producing 2-in-1 hardware is relatively easy... but having software to exploit that platform is far different and far more difficult, and Apple already has the "hard part" done.
But for what purpose?
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,346
13,149
where hip is spoken
What Android tablets were selling in volume in 2012?
Here's a link to the tablet sales trends 2010-2012. It may not initially appear to be significant, but the trend shows an increase in the sales of non-iPad tablets relative to all tablets being sold. For investors, that is a troublesome trend. Units sold dropped from 88% of all tablets to 75% in 2 years.


But for what purpose?
To push the envelope in personal computing. Having a single device that can be used for casual/consumption computing as well as content creation and productivity is growing in appeal as the waves of people's daily lives ebb and flow between "work" and "leisure" throughout the course of a day.

Of all of the 2-in-1 devices and attempts at "converged" devices that I've owned over the years, I could definitely see the benefits of one that is done right. So far, none have been done right... they usually fall more heavily on one side or the other... more of a notebook than a tablet, or vice versa.
 
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QCassidy352

macrumors G5
Mar 20, 2003
12,033
6,062
Bay Area
Apple’s vision is not to have all your computing needs revolve around one device, but instead to have them revolve around one single platform (iCloud) regardless of which device you are using. So while many consumers see an advantage in owning one single device to take care of all of their computing needs, Apple sees things differently. They see a world where you have many devices, each specifically tailored to a specific task or need, all of which sync to iCloud and work in conjunction with each other.
Very well said. Why does anyone assume Apple WANTS to sell you one device to rule them all? They don’t. They want to sell you a laptop, and a tablet, and a phone, and a watch, and a streaming tv box, and a home speaker...
 

cics

macrumors regular
Dec 6, 2016
126
81
Milano
If Apple felt they could truly create a seemless iOS/MacOS hybrid, trust me, they would. Right now they are testing the waters a bit with software cross overs/integration like they announced at WWDC...but thats also to make it easier on people who use a mac and have an iphone & or iPad as well. Apple is all about creating a seemless software/hardware integration. So it makes sense.

But just because Apple says it doesnt make sense to fully combine the two or come out with a laptop/ipad hybrid doesn’t mean they won’t. Apple is always saying something doesn’t make sense or they won’t do something and then eventually doing it. As technology improves things change. I could totally see Apple coming out with a hybrid machine someday. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for it...but i could totally see it happening.

I agree. I think they are at least exploring the idea.

First, there are rumors of Apple ordering prototypes of such device (they probably have already tested it).
Second, having an iPad Pro with iOS that changes the behaviour of apps when it's docked (windowed mode, support for mouse interactions) doesn't mean that iOS and macOS are merging... like Craig said.
Third, this is the way where chrome OS is heading and chromebooks are (slowly) gaining marketshare... if Apple needs to enter the market it must be prepared for sure, and in order to do that... they needs developer support. This is the first step "just in case".
Fourth, Cook always said that Apple is not giving us hybrid devices because they come with tradeoffs. This is exactly what he said about iPhones with larger screens in 2013 and... well, you know the rest of the story.

So, iOS and macOS merging? Don't think so. Hybrid device with UIkit apps with mouse support when docked? Maybe... part of the road is already taken with the iPad Pro.

Anyway, if this is not happening it's good that macOS is gaining iOS apps, I really feel the experience is somewhat disconnected from iOS right now. Also I hope they will finally bring iCloud notifications sync.
 
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akash.nu

macrumors G4
May 26, 2016
10,825
16,944
Let’s not forget Apple is essentially a hardware company. Their software and services are there to enhance the hardware experience.
 

goobot

macrumors 604
Jun 26, 2009
6,537
4,529
long island NY
Very well said. Why does anyone assume Apple WANTS to sell you one device to rule them all? They don’t. They want to sell you a laptop, and a tablet, and a phone, and a watch, and a streaming tv box, and a home speaker...
I think if they were to sell you a combo tablet/computer it would cost more than either separate.
 

Dave245

macrumors G3
Sep 15, 2013
9,765
8,008
I don't think Apple will create a hybrid device especially now that they came out on stage in front of a LOT of people at WWDC and said NO. I was thinking about this yesterday and something suddenly dawned on my, Apple released the Touch Bar to early i think it's all part of their long term plan. Apple are bringing support for IOS Apps to the Mac and a good way of interacting with those apps may very well be with the Touch Bar especially in certain apps.

I have looked at the Surface line by Microsoft and i won't lie it has intrigued me, i have even thought about buying one BUT since it runs Windows that is a BIG NO for me, I do think Apple is saying no because they have a road map for both the Mac and IOS devices but also because it would be a bad experience. I have spoken with friends when i mentioned about a Surface and was simply told "Don't do it" "Stick with a Mac" from people who have used these devices in the past and have switched over to the Mac.
 

Pete Rodgers

macrumors member
Jun 18, 2017
80
82
Bethesda, Uk
I don't think Apple will create a hybrid device especially now that they came out on stage in front of a LOT of people at WWDC and said NO. I was thinking about this yesterday and something suddenly dawned on my, Apple released the Touch Bar to early i think it's all part of their long term plan. Apple are bringing support for IOS Apps to the Mac and a good way of interacting with those apps may very well be with the Touch Bar especially in certain apps.

I have looked at the Surface line by Microsoft and i won't lie it has intrigued me, i have even thought about buying one BUT since it runs Windows that is a BIG NO for me, I do think Apple is saying no because they have a road map for both the Mac and IOS devices but also because it would be a bad experience. I have spoken with friends when i mentioned about a Surface and was simply told "Don't do it" "Stick with a Mac" from people who have used these devices in the past and have switched over to the Mac.

I was in the market for a new computer to replace my old Mac Pro 2009. I eventually bought a Porsche Design 2 in 1 laptop running Windows 10. It took me about a week to set it up and port everything over, but I can honestly say it's a great little machine. It has a touchscreen which I use occaisionally, but the screen also detaches so I can use it as an art tablet with the included pen. The pen is better than the Apple Pencil, and if it weren't for a few apps not available in Windows, I would switch from my iPad pro and use this for everything. Windows 10 is not as nice to look at as Mac OS, but I prefer the file management system and it feels very snappy and modern. By sticking in the mud, Apple are losing "creatives" like me and will continue to do so.
 
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akash.nu

macrumors G4
May 26, 2016
10,825
16,944
I don't think Apple will create a hybrid device especially now that they came out on stage in front of a LOT of people at WWDC and said NO. I was thinking about this yesterday and something suddenly dawned on my, Apple released the Touch Bar to early i think it's all part of their long term plan. Apple are bringing support for IOS Apps to the Mac and a good way of interacting with those apps may very well be with the Touch Bar especially in certain apps.

I have looked at the Surface line by Microsoft and i won't lie it has intrigued me, i have even thought about buying one BUT since it runs Windows that is a BIG NO for me, I do think Apple is saying no because they have a road map for both the Mac and IOS devices but also because it would be a bad experience. I have spoken with friends when i mentioned about a Surface and was simply told "Don't do it" "Stick with a Mac" from people who have used these devices in the past and have switched over to the Mac.

I was in the market for a new computer to replace my old Mac Pro 2009. I eventually bought a Porsche Design 2 in 1 laptop running Windows 10. It took me about a week to set it up and port everything over, but I can honestly say it's a great little machine. It has a touchscreen which I use occaisionally, but the screen also detaches so I can use it as an art tablet with the included pen. The pen is better than the Apple Pencil, and if it weren't for a few apps not available in Windows, I would switch from my iPad pro and use this for everything. Windows 10 is not as nice to look at as Mac OS, but I prefer the file management system and it feels very snappy and modern. By sticking in the mud, Apple are losing "creatives" like me and will continue to do so.

It all depends on individual usecases. No One device / company can satisfy everyone. As a company it’s better to live with that a concentrate on one focussed direction / goal than try to satisfy everyone and be the jack of all.
 

cics

macrumors regular
Dec 6, 2016
126
81
Milano
I don't think Apple will create a hybrid device especially now that they came out on stage in front of a LOT of people at WWDC and said NO.

That No was referring to merging iOS and macOS, not creating an hybrid device or supporting mouse interactions when iPad Pro is docked.
 

Dave245

macrumors G3
Sep 15, 2013
9,765
8,008
That No was referring to merging iOS and macOS, not creating an hybrid device or supporting mouse interactions when iPad Pro is docked.

If they won’t merge IOS with Mac they won’t make a hybrid device, they have already confirmed this many times in the past.
 
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