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jamesdean74

macrumors member
Original poster
Jul 15, 2008
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I was just sitting here using the MK on my 11” iPad, and I was just wondering if this is where the so called ARM MacBook is headed? Apple just gave us an amazing keyboard and trackpad for the iPad, so now developers will be updating their apps to work with a keyboard and trackpad..... So maybe, the ARM MacBook will be running iPad OS and not reworking MacOS to run on ARM.... there is such a wealth of apps for the iPad, and if developers get them all compatible with the keyboard/trackpad, then a laptop with an Apple Ax chip could be made and will out of the box have access to over a million amazing apps with more on the way?

Just a thought... opinions?
 

KittyKatta

macrumors 65816
Feb 24, 2011
1,058
1,212
SoCal
So maybe, the ARM MacBook will be running iPad OS and not reworking MacOS to run on ARM.
Homeschooling during quarantine has made me a huge supporter for the “iPad Laptop” concept. Especially as a disruptive product to take back EDU from Chromebooks.

The popularity of Chromebooks is based purely on simplicity. There’s no accessorizing with peripherals or new groundbreaking concepts. Its just a tool to get a job done and that’s exactly what some people need (and something Apple doesnt offer).

MacBooks are too expensive. IPad + Accessories is too complicated. And Chromebooks are too narrowly focused. But an affordable, simple, adequately powered traditional laptop powered by ARM/iPadOS could really be an opportunity to take back EDU from Chromebooks.
 
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mr_jomo

macrumors 6502
Dec 9, 2018
427
523
I was just sitting here using the MK on my 11” iPad, and I was just wondering if this is where the so called ARM MacBook is headed? Apple just gave us an amazing keyboard and trackpad for the iPad, so now developers will be updating their apps to work with a keyboard and trackpad..... So maybe, the ARM MacBook will be running iPad OS and not reworking MacOS to run on ARM.... there is such a wealth of apps for the iPad, and if developers get them all compatible with the keyboard/trackpad, then a laptop with an Apple Ax chip could be made and will out of the box have access to over a million amazing apps with more on the way?

Just a thought... opinions?

Interesting perspective.

I gather Apple has already created the "Macbook" on ARM using iPadOS, which you are using right now in form of the iPad Pro & Magic keyboard combo. A true Macbook using iPadOS would probably not bring many current macos users over or convert customers from other ecosystems.

A fused OS - as mentioned before in this tread - seems more coherent commercially. Mac Catalyst clearly shows some initial tests by Apple here.

That said, judging by how extremely safe Apple plays it currently, I'd venture macos on ARM and some cross development and deployment support between IOS and macos is what we'll see over the next couple of years.
 

Jack Neill

macrumors 68020
Sep 13, 2015
2,267
2,293
San Antonio Texas
They have already complied macOS for ARM, just like they compiled Panther for Intel. Doesn't mean we will see it soon. I imagine that if they ship in 2021, it will be macOS 16.
 

AdamNC

macrumors 6502a
Feb 3, 2018
715
931
Leland NC
When did Apples innovations and quality take a dive? 3 times. Firing of Steve Jobs, Death of Steve Jobs, and Apple turning to intel for their chips. We can’t bring back Steve but we sure as hell can go back to Apple designed chips.
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,287
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where hip is spoken
When did Apples innovations and quality take a dive? 3 times. Firing of Steve Jobs, Death of Steve Jobs, and Apple turning to intel for their chips. We can’t bring back Steve but we sure as hell can go back to Apple designed chips.
Apple turning to Intel for their chips resulted in a dive for Apple's innovations and quality? Some of the highest quality Mac OS devices have been Intel-based. Any issues regarding quality were a result of Apple's price/cost decisions that could've just as easily happened with ARM-based devices. What Intel-specific quality issues are you referring to? Were those things a limitation of Intel or a design decision by Apple that went south?
 

AdamNC

macrumors 6502a
Feb 3, 2018
715
931
Leland NC
Apple turning to Intel for their chips resulted in a dive for Apple's innovations and quality? Some of the highest quality Mac OS devices have been Intel-based. Any issues regarding quality were a result of Apple's price/cost decisions that could've just as easily happened with ARM-based devices. What Intel-specific quality issues are you referring to? Were those things a limitation of Intel or a design decision by Apple that went south?
Intels innovation or lack there of has always been a problem. They are 2-3 years behind in raw power and processing capabilities. The fact that Apples own chips always out perform the rest of the industry is proof of that. They require less ram, they are faster at lower Mghz. Intel has some incredible stuff but it’s simply not good for Mac. My 2020 1050 IPad Pro can load and operate better than my neighbors new 16in MBP With the i7chip. That’s sad. 3000 dollar “top of the line” laptop is slower than a 1050 dollar tablet. Major difference the chipset.
 

secretk

macrumors 65816
Oct 19, 2018
1,494
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Intels innovation or lack there of has always been a problem. They are 2-3 years behind in raw power and processing capabilities. The fact that Apples own chips always out perform the rest of the industry is proof of that. They require less ram, they are faster at lower Mghz. Intel has some incredible stuff but it’s simply not good for Mac. My 2020 1050 IPad Pro can load and operate better than my neighbors new 16in MBP With the i7chip. That’s sad. 3000 dollar “top of the line” laptop is slower than a 1050 dollar tablet. Major difference the chipset.

But the question is are we sure it is the i7 chip? I have Windows i7 chip as well and it does not load slower than the 2018 iPP. I know what the benchmarks say but it does not to translate to my real life usage. My laptop still feels faster. Ad the price is equal between both devices. Only I bought the laptop in December 2017 so it is 2 and half years older than the iPP that I bought recently.

From benchmarks point of view it is true that Apple's own chips are faster than latest Intel chips. The thing is I never saw this translating to real life usage that I do on those devices. The laptop always felt better and more powerful.
 

Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,179
3,926
My take on it is that Apple is not going to merge iPadOS and macOS. Still, the arm macbook will be huge for iPad. This will push Apple to convert its main software to arm, such as final cut pro, very soon, but also push developers to develop for ARM And since now iPad has foull mouse support, apps won't even need to be made specifically for touch to run on ipados...
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,507
7,395
I was just sitting here using the MK on my 11” iPad, and I was just wondering if this is where the so called ARM MacBook is headed? Apple just gave us an amazing keyboard and trackpad for the iPad, so now developers will be updating their apps to work with a keyboard and trackpad.....

I think that's a plausible alternative if you just look at the "12" ARM Macbook" rumour (also ties in with the XCode/Logic/FCP for iPad rumours).

However, the longer-term rumours have been that Apple want to transition the whole Mac line to their own processors. If that involves dumping MacOS or "dumbing down" Mac OS 11 I think a lot of us here would walk away (nothing about switching to ARM necessitates that, but if Apple were so inclined it would be a moment of opportunity)

Apple turning to Intel for their chips resulted in a dive for Apple's innovations and quality?
...
What Intel-specific quality issues are you referring to?

I'm not sure that's the way to put it - when Apple adopted Intel, the PPC range was at a dead end (at least for laptops and personal desktops) and Intel had just seriously upped their game by dumping Pentium4/Netburst in favour of the Core architecture.

However, in the last 5 years or so I think Apple has been frustrated by Intel's actions - and not just their slowness in moving to new chip fab sizes. For one thing, Intel have developed the habit of announcing the next generation of CPUs when they've barely finished releasing all of the variants of the previous generation - so PC boxshifters are advertising 13th Gen Intel CPUs" (don't ask about the graphics - we just stuff in what Intel releases) while Apple is still waiting for good supplies of the 12th generation 28W + Iris Pro graphics chips needed to upgrade the Macbook Pro. USB 3 on the Mac was delayed because Apple were waiting for Intel to incorporate USB 3 controllers on-chip. Ditto on-chip Thunderbolt controllers... Ditto Intel iGPUs not supporting DisplayPort 1.4...

The Mac Mini is a good example - benefits from having a desktop-class processor, but loses out because Intel don't make a desktop processor with anything more than their weakest integrated graphics...

If Apple do move to ARM it won't just be about what gives the best CPU performance today it will be so that they have full design control over their CPUs in the future, and can tailor-design systems-on-a-chip to match the needs of future products.
 

hipnetic

macrumors 65816
Oct 5, 2010
1,266
562
I've stated this in several threads recently, but my hope is that Apple is, indeed, planning OSX for ARM *and* that they'll allow an iPad to switch between running either OSX or iPad OS. When used as a tablet, you would use iPad OS with it's larger, finger-friendly UI. When used with a keyboard and trackpad/mouse, you would use OSX and benefit from more screen real estate i.e., smaller icons and widgets, allowing you to fit more windows/stuff on the screen).
 

zhenya

macrumors 604
Jan 6, 2005
6,929
3,677
I've stated this in several threads recently, but my hope is that Apple is, indeed, planning OSX for ARM *and* that they'll allow an iPad to switch between running either OSX or iPad OS. When used as a tablet, you would use iPad OS with it's larger, finger-friendly UI. When used with a keyboard and trackpad/mouse, you would use OSX and benefit from more screen real estate i.e., smaller icons and widgets, allowing you to fit more windows/stuff on the screen).

The rumor pipeline is full of software clues, potential hardware changes, not to mention Apple’s own guidance that are all pointing towards ARM on Macs and making all devices work more seamlessly. I am not aware of a single credible rumor that supports the kind of switching you propose.

It also feels entirely un-apple-like, and something that would have been proposed back when the iPad could reasonably be criticized as a ”blown-up iPhone”. I can’t fathom why they would be putting so much work into growing iPadOS - adding cursor support, etc. if they were going to take some hybrid route.

As a heavy iPad user, it seems to me that such switching would be entirely disorienting in actual use. I switch between using the magic keyboard and using the iPad as a separate device numerous times per day - often moving between positions where it takes me less than a second to make the transition. You’re suggesting that the software is supposed to somehow dynamically switch between two entirely different operating systems running entirely different versions of software, and it’s supposed to be seamless and instantaneous the way it is now? What happens to my program context as I switch? Does it switch between browser versions with different currently open tabs, forget my recently used programs order, take my in-process photo edits and project layouts and move them between iPadOS and MacOS versions in real-time, and so on?

What Apple is moving towards is feature parity on all devices. Universal apps built on a common codebase with the same functionality. The hardware type will dictate the operating system version, but the practical differences in software will melt away.

The 12” Macbook was always a device that was cross-shopped by people who might otherwise choose an iPad. As the expectation is that it’s not a high performance device, it makes perfect sense it would be where they introduce ARM on the Mac. Eventually the software lines will blur and users will choose their hardware based on their particular needs and preferences.
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Homeschooling during quarantine has made me a huge supporter for the “iPad Laptop” concept. Especially as a disruptive product to take back EDU from Chromebooks.

The popularity of Chromebooks is based purely on simplicity. There’s no accessorizing with peripherals or new groundbreaking concepts. Its just a tool to get a job done and that’s exactly what some people need (and something Apple doesnt offer).

MacBooks are too expensive. IPad + Accessories is too complicated. And Chromebooks are too narrowly focused. But an affordable, simple, adequately powered traditional laptop powered by ARM/iPadOS could really be an opportunity to take back EDU from Chromebooks.

Our kids use Chromebooks for school in an otherwise all Apple household. It’s pretty clear to see that Apple completely dropped the ball on the education market, and Apple may not have the will to compete in this space now that Google has it pretty well locked up.

The Acer Chromebooks they are using now are not high quality, but they are entirely capable devices, and they cost about $200 each. For which price you get a foldable device with a real keyboard, decent screen and camera placement optimized for video chatting and document scanning.

It’s hard to see Apple competing in this market at this kind of price point. And thus far, Apple has pretty well indicated that iPads are their low-cost basic computing devices, and, as you well note, an iPad simply isn’t suited to mass educational use.
 
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hipnetic

macrumors 65816
Oct 5, 2010
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As a heavy iPad user, it seems to me that such switching would be entirely disorienting in actual use. I switch between using the magic keyboard and using the iPad as a separate device numerous times per day - often moving between positions where it takes me less than a second to make the transition. You’re suggesting that the software is supposed to somehow dynamically switch between two entirely different operating systems running entirely different versions of software, and it’s supposed to be seamless and instantaneous the way it is now? What happens to my program context as I switch? Does it switch between browser versions with different currently open tabs, forget my recently used programs order, take my in-process photo edits and project layouts and move them between iPadOS and MacOS versions in real-time, and so on?
You raise some excellent points/concerns. I agree that it isn't as simple as I described. A somewhat kludgy approach that Apple could take would be to essentially require a "reboot" to switch between the two modes. So, maybe when you're out and about and wanting to use the iPad as a tablet, but with some occasional typing, it would work just as it does now (i.e., remain in iPad OS mode even for typing). But if you get back to your desk and want to spend a longer period of time doing some video editing or software development, you reboot/restart it in OSX mode.

But I'm not sure if I'm ready to completely abandon the possibility that Apple could later develop a solution where simply snapping the iPad onto the Magic Keyboard/case causes it to switch to OSX and apps handle the transition gracefully.

Having said all of that, I'm also not opposed to the idea of Apple building upon iPad OS further to the point where they could eventually "abandon" OSX altogether if/when iPad OS had narrowed the feature-parity gap. So, perhaps instead they instruct iPad OS developers to develop their apps to dynamically switch to a "windowed" (rather than full-screen) mode when docked, where widgets/icons/fonts also got smaller, allowing for more "stuff" to fit on the screen. Simultaneously, Apple would do the same for their own apps, like the Files app (narrowing the gap with the OSX Finder), port developer tools to iPad OS, etc.
 

ct2k7

macrumors G3
Aug 29, 2008
8,362
3,434
London
I hope so, macOS is dead in my eyes. For the last 3-5 years, every time I use it, it is horribly unpolished.

Well considering that Apple has most of its efforts focused on iOS/iPadOS/tvOS vs macOS, it’s not a surprise.
 

DNichter

macrumors G3
Apr 27, 2015
9,385
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Philadelphia, PA
Well considering that Apple has most of its efforts focused on iOS/iPadOS/tvOS vs macOS, it’s not a surprise.

That's true. I get it to an extent because you have to focus on your largest and most critical customer base, but it still surprises me given Apple's size. I think it just comes down to priorities, as you mention.
 
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Madhatter32

macrumors 65816
Apr 17, 2020
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If Macs run iPadOS, I'll probably have to go to windows. It's a lousy GUI for a fully functioning computer. It's good for what it is -- a tablet touched based OS. If they can make MacOS run on ARM, I would look to see if that made sense in my workflow.
 

DNichter

macrumors G3
Apr 27, 2015
9,385
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Philadelphia, PA
If Macs run iPadOS, I'll probably have to go to windows. It's a lousy GUI for a fully functioning computer. It's good for what it is -- a tablet touched based OS. If they can make MacOS run on ARM, I would look to see if that made sense in my workflow.

Plenty to work on in regards to iPadOS, but what GUI enhancements would make the difference for you? I know they are working on free floating windows and better multitasking, but besides that and more pro apps, what would be needed?
 
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sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,287
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where hip is spoken
Our kids use Chromebooks for school in an otherwise all Apple household. It’s pretty clear to see that Apple completely dropped the ball on the education market, and Apple may not have the will to compete in this space now that Google has it pretty well locked up.

The Acer Chromebooks they are using now are not high quality, but they are entirely capable devices, and they cost about $200 each. For which price you get a foldable device with a real keyboard, decent screen and camera placement optimized for video chatting and document scanning.

It’s hard to see Apple competing in this market at this kind of price point. And thus far, Apple has pretty well indicated that iPads are their low-cost basic computing devices, and, as you well note, an iPad simply isn’t suited to mass educational use.
I agree with your observations. My daughter is a teacher in a school that is heavily chromebook-centric. I'm a chromebook fan (even though I have a stack of MacOS and Windows devices too) and moving up to the $500 price range can get a very good 2-in-1 chromebook.

Google has been incrementally improving CrOS for tablet use. It doesn't look like they'll make the same mistake as Microsoft made with Win 8.x and beyond. And they're not going to avoid the issue altogether as Apple is currently doing.

With CrOS 81 on my Pixelbook, in tablet mode it is every bit as good as my iPad Pro (when I had it) and perhaps better because of having full support for USB/bluetooth peripherals, a fully accessible file system, a full desktop browser, and multi-display support. In laptop mode, it does a decent enough job with PWAs, well-behaved Android apps, and Linux apps.

CrOS 81 switches between laptop and tablet modes surprisingly well... there are still a few rough edges but they're already ahead of what Microsoft is doing with Win10 wrt tablet/desktop.

For those thinking that an ARM macbook would be running both MacOS and iOS... I highly doubt it. But i DO see MacOS getting "dumbed down" to more easily run iPadOS apps that have been recompiled (or perhaps use a low level compatibility layer to allow binary code execution).

Apple telegraphed this a little with their rework of the iWork suite. They gutted OSX iWork so that the iOS version could have functional parity.
 

KittyKatta

macrumors 65816
Feb 24, 2011
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For those thinking that an ARM macbook would be running both MacOS and iOS... I highly doubt it. But i DO see MacOS getting "dumbed down" to more easily run iPadOS apps that have been recompiled (or perhaps use a low level compatibility layer to allow binary code execution).

Apple telegraphed this a little with their rework of the iWork suite. They gutted OSX iWork so that the iOS version could have functional parity.
Are iPadOS based laptops a possibility? Or is the K-12 EDU market lost to Google?

iPads in classrooms make a great commercial, but in the real world then kids are destructive, schools are underfunded and most parents aren’t rich. So, with so many schools/parents rethinking the future of education then maybe this is a good time for Apple to jump back in to education.

Apple already has Apple Classroom and we all know how much Tim Cook loves recycling old parts so maybe an A10/iPadOS based laptop could be a cheap alternative over gClassroom and Chromebooks.
 

Tekguy0

macrumors 6502
Jan 19, 2020
306
361
Are iPadOS based laptops a possibility? Or is the K-12 EDU market lost to Google?

Apple already has Apple Classroom and we all know how much Tim Cook loves recycling old parts so maybe an A10/iPadOS based laptop could be a cheap alternative over gClassroom and Chromebooks.

iPadOS based laptops exist in the form of iPads with keyboard cases. But they lost K-12 to google, except at private schools, because schools can purchase a ton of cheap, good-enough, ultra manageable chromebooks at $200, and keep them until they literally fall apart. If schools want macs, they are probably more likely to buy used 2012 Unibody MBPs or those base model iMacs. But for schools, G-suite and the ability to control and spy on individual accounts is better than Apples nonexistent solution to organization user management on the desktop, though it is better on iPad. But they are too expensive and fragile without a case, which adds to the cost. Also, if an iPad screen breaks, its can be over a hundred dollars, whereas if a chromebook screen breaks, it is ~$25 for a replacement panel. Even if Apple made a $600 A10 powered 12" MacBook, and seriously cut corners, a school could buy 3 chromebooks. Which makes a ton more sense from their perspective.
 
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