I have yet to meet a single person with a Surface anything who is demanding a touch screen display. In fact people dont use it in the real world.
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Thoughts about the MacBook Pro 2016...
- Thread starter SteveJobzniak
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@Appleaker: Good summary of the Intel issues. It's getting tiresome to see Intel schedules slipping and dropping the ball constantly. They need competition from AMD to force them back into shape. They've gotten complacent.
As for the touch-screen, Jonathan Ive confirmed that after the touch-strip display they are now working hard on the secret next generation of touch-controlled Macs and MacBook Pros. It sounds like it's going to be a big revolution that solves the touch usability issues they faced in the past. Read the end of this post for Ive's revelation: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/thoughts-about-the-macbook-pro-2016.2013093/#post-23874177
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Here is what multi-touch on a computer is for (watch the whole thing):
The product is called a Slate Raven MTi2. It is a touch-screen controller for macOS music production, and it changed my life. As it did for so many pros (like the Oscar Academy Award winner in the video above). There's nothing more liberating than touching the screen and instantly controlling my audio equipment.
However, it's single-touch because of macOS limitations (which only has one mouse cursor). An official multi-touch release from Apple would take this THROUGH THE ROOF and let you tweak multiple controls at once.
Stop living in the past, people.
As for the touch-screen, Jonathan Ive confirmed that after the touch-strip display they are now working hard on the secret next generation of touch-controlled Macs and MacBook Pros. It sounds like it's going to be a big revolution that solves the touch usability issues they faced in the past. Read the end of this post for Ive's revelation: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/thoughts-about-the-macbook-pro-2016.2013093/#post-23874177
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Here is what multi-touch on a computer is for (watch the whole thing):
The product is called a Slate Raven MTi2. It is a touch-screen controller for macOS music production, and it changed my life. As it did for so many pros (like the Oscar Academy Award winner in the video above). There's nothing more liberating than touching the screen and instantly controlling my audio equipment.
However, it's single-touch because of macOS limitations (which only has one mouse cursor). An official multi-touch release from Apple would take this THROUGH THE ROOF and let you tweak multiple controls at once.
Stop living in the past, people.
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Why are you changing the subject. I was talking about the Surface. That was clear from my post. I own an iPad Pro. I recognize the benefits of touch but I haven't wanted it on my laptop display ever.
My opinion is that users with heavy CPU or memory requirements are still better off with a desktop system unless portability and battery-powered usage are essential. A laptop is still a compromise for these use cases.
I've bought two Dell workstation/ server towers (T3600 & T110 II) for < $1000 in the last couple years (Xeon E5 6-core & E3 4-core), and fitted these with the maximum RAM (64GB & 32GB) and multiple SSDs. Probably cost me about US$1500-1800 to get machines with far more performance, RAM & storage than is possible in nearly any laptop computer, and much more expansion capability and thermal overhead. These things will sit at their turbo-boost speeds for hours.
You can get small form-factor desktops with slightly slower processors that are at least semi-portable and if you are already carrying other audio equipment (mixing desks, outboard gear, mic-stands etc), a small-ish computer really doesn't make much difference.
If you already have rack-mounted gear in 19" racks, then just buy a 1U blade server (up to 44 cores with dual Xeon E5s), and you'll have a ton of processing power!
I've bought two Dell workstation/ server towers (T3600 & T110 II) for < $1000 in the last couple years (Xeon E5 6-core & E3 4-core), and fitted these with the maximum RAM (64GB & 32GB) and multiple SSDs. Probably cost me about US$1500-1800 to get machines with far more performance, RAM & storage than is possible in nearly any laptop computer, and much more expansion capability and thermal overhead. These things will sit at their turbo-boost speeds for hours.
You can get small form-factor desktops with slightly slower processors that are at least semi-portable and if you are already carrying other audio equipment (mixing desks, outboard gear, mic-stands etc), a small-ish computer really doesn't make much difference.
If you already have rack-mounted gear in 19" racks, then just buy a 1U blade server (up to 44 cores with dual Xeon E5s), and you'll have a ton of processing power!
I've desperately CRAVED multitouch on every computer ever since I started using a Slate Raven MTi. Check the video above and feel free to check more videos on YouTube, such as this one of the Aftermath Team (producers behind hits from Dr. Dre, Beyonce, J-Lo, Jessie J, Eminem, Usher, Busta Rhymes, N'Sync, Rick Ross, Tupac, 50 Cent, Lionel Richie, Herbie Hancock, Mariah Carey, etc).
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I'm typing this from my XPS 13 right now with a touch screen, and definitely appreciate it in certain applications. For one, the ESPN website allows me to scroll through the scores banner with my finger. Another instance is Flipboard. It's much more intuitive to be able to flick through news content.
Is it a game changer? Far from it, but I do like keeping my options open. I can use the touch pad, touch screen, or connect a mouse. It just depends what kind of content I'm looking at, and I can choose accordingly. Of course, different strokes for different folks. If you don't see any value in the above, that's fine as well.
That's great but I had a Surface previously and never used the touch display. My friend who I saw today and would never use a Mac has a Surface and he said the same thing I did. He doesn't use the touch display on his Surface.
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True, but laptops are pretty much at the point where they can handle the biggest music projects. The multi-core score of the MacBook Pro 2016 is about half of the desktop I have (which has so much power that I never reach its limits). I'm gradually breaking free from being stuck in one place though, and my fully-upgraded, beastly Classic Mac Pro desktop (30 KILOS) feels very limiting since its massive size and weight confines me to working only in my own studio.
You bring up a good point. True workstations with Xeons are out there and when they get thrown out by corporations (that no longer need them, and want something more power-efficient to save electricity bills, and something faster), they can go for extremely cheap. I've seen $300 being asked for $6000 machines. The corporations don't care about 2nd hand value. They just dump them out for bargain prices.
That might be a really good idea for a Hackintosh project.
True. Not sure if you saw my conclusion post? https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/thoughts-about-the-macbook-pro-2016.2013093/#post-23874492
I reached the conclusion that I'll try to wait for a 24+ GB RAM MacBook Pro which should be out in 2-3 years, and that I may even wait up to 5 years for the next generation of touchscreen MacBook Pros that Jonathan Ive admitted to working on. But if I get tired of waiting (which is likely), I'll be building a small form-factor desktop just like you said. I could get a fast and modern mini-motherboard, a small case, a top-end Core i7 processor, and the result would be about 2x as fast as the new MacBook Pro. If I can find a case with nice shape for carrying, it'd be pretty damn good. But the best would of course be a laptop, since that has the screen included.
Yikes that's crazy. That many cores aren't needed for music. :-D And a 1U wouldn't fit graphics cards. Besides, I've gotten rid of all my rack mounted external gear (tens of thousands of dollars worth of music equipment) because the digital plugins these days sound equally good now. It was a bold move but the digital emulations (plugins replicating hardware sounds) these days are just too spot-on and sound exactly like the analog hardware they reproduce, so there was no point anymore.
Thanks for your tips. I'll definitely look into de-commissioned Xeon servers. They could be a great way to get a superb workstation Hackintosh for next to nothing. I'd have to watch out for getting stuck with an un-upgradeable Xeon motherboard though. And I'd have to put it all in a compact case. But at the prices you can find those old servers for, I can't complain about the idea. Worth pursuing.
All I know for sure is that I badly want to sell my classic Mac Pro tower and replace it with something more portable. It's too damn big and heavy.
[doublepost=1478482142][/doublepost]Update: See this is what I was saying about corporations dumping old servers for dirt-cheap: http://www.ebay.com/bhp/used-servers ... Most of that is equipment that was originally in the $3000-15000 range, being sold for $300 a box. You'd just have to look very carefully to find one with Hackintosh-compatible components and a good case. Some motherboards and CPUs may not be able to boot macOS at all. Most rack-mounted servers don't have PCIe slots, so most won't allow you to insert any new graphics card, which means that you have to look at the desktop tower-based servers to get PCIe slots (click "Refine Results" at the top and choose desktop form factor to find the actual workstations). And also watch out for the fact that some of them have very old, power-inefficient CPUs, so be sure to get the most modern ones you can find (Google the CPU names and check when they were released), if someone else is thinking of doing this. It is also very important to type the name of the CPU into GeekBench to see what the performance is like: https://browser.primatelabs.com. This is a path I haven't gone down, but I bet it can be done if you find a very compatible motherboard, without too many CPU sockets. Then it'll probably be supported by the macOS kernel and will be possible to get it to run. A quick Googling shows that people have managed to do it. But it definitely requires a lot of research that I'm only gonna waste time on if I ever decide to go down this path. Used Xeon servers would definitely be the cheapest power-workstations ever.
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Thoughts about the nMBP? Here's one:
Buying from Apple and paying a premium used to ensure a first class experience - these days it's stand-by only.
Buying from Apple and paying a premium used to ensure a first class experience - these days it's stand-by only.
"Stylus isn't coming to iPad.... It's not happening" Do you see where your logic is flawed?
Especially since Jonathan Ive accidentally admitted that they are working on a top-secret next generation touchscreen project for MacBook Pros, which solves the complaints people have about touchscreen laptops in the past.
For those who missed my earlier post, here's a repeat: As for the touch-screen, Jonathan Ive confirmed that after the touch-strip display they are now working hard on the secret next generation of touch-controlled Macs and MacBook Pros. It sounds like it's going to be a big revolution that solves the touch usability issues they faced in the past. Read the end of this post for Ive's revelation: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/thoughts-about-the-macbook-pro-2016.2013093/#post-23874177
I can't say I'm surprised by this revelation. They'd be stupid not to be working on a future touchscreen laptop in [insert current year here]. They just want to be sure they implement it in a better way than competitors have. Ive admitted that the touch-strip was the first step but that they're working on a different, bigger, very secret project to overcome past complaints about laptop touchscreens.
All that means that they will introduce a touch screen MacBook and call it revolutionary. That's where the industry is headed and even Apple can't deny it. Look at all of the dissent on this forum.
Haha, knowing Apple, we'd certainly expect them to do that. I am betting it'll be Multitouch + have a redesigned macOS GUI with bigger window bar buttons so that it becomes touch friendly (it's almost there already, with the fullscreen mode, side by side fullscreen, iOS launchpad launcher existing on macOS, etc). Why do you think they added Fullscreen mode and Launchpad to macOS? They're getting ready for the right moment to release a touchscreen device. What they need next is a slightly tweaked window titlebar (to make the close/maximize/etc buttons easier to hit), and multi-touch capable apps (which they already kinda have, thanks to the Magic Trackpad's gesture controls)...
Anyway, Jonathan Ive accidentally revealed that they are working on something that improves the experience of touching a laptop screen. My gut feeling thinks it's the screen-angle you're working at on a laptop screen, and the way the laptop screen bends backwards when you touch it. He's probably working on the hinge, making it possible to move the screen forwards and lock it securely into place to make it very touch-friendly and stable. Sort of like an iPad with a stand.
Again, this is all logical. They'd be stupid not to be working on a future touchscreen laptop in [insert current year here].
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Having seen a 13" now, it's a great laptop. It's effectively an ultraportable and in fulfilling that role I'm tempted. As with many ultraportables it compromises function over form to an extent. It's an extremely small and portable device for something with a fully fledged CPU, 10 hour battery and high quality 13" display.
I understand and share some of the frustration with the new model. They're not quite fulfilling the same roles out of the box as the previous model.
I understand and share some of the frustration with the new model. They're not quite fulfilling the same roles out of the box as the previous model.
What they should have done, is keep the 15-inch model a true pro with all the ports and leave the 13-inch model as it is right now.
I fully agree with that. They're cutting too much to save 1mm of case thickness. It hurts usability.
I'm guessing Apple is being stubborn about touch screen because they spoke against it in the past and don't want to look like they're following the crowd. It's ironic that it's used extensively in their other products but somehow it's not appropriate in laptops. And as far as inferring form Ive's words that Apple's implementaiton will be far superior to what's out there, maybe in the past I'd have such confidence but not now - whatever they do will of course be marketed as magical and revolutionary, but they no longer seem to be the smartest people in the room, judging by the 2016 MacBook Pros.
what happend to apples courage with the macbook? i mean it comes with a headphone jack. guess they didn't really have courage after all. things that make you go hummm
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Op knows nothing about Apple products. Complaining that a desktop computer is faster than a laptop so that is why you're not buying it? What a doofus, name one laptop that is faster than the desktop version of the same part it is for power efficiency.
And no, literally no one is calling for touch unless you are a senior citizen. Op there are Windows computers that have touch and they are horrible.
There will be 32gb ram next year and you will still not buy one you will just complain.
Ive never stated he is working on a touchscreen Mac. You are projecting things you want in a personal computer.
The fact that you think a computer will last the rest of your life shows you are not technically minded At all.
I would suggest saving up all your money and spending it on a Windows touchscreen laptop. So then you can hit up the Microsoft boards and complain about the future not suiting your personal preferences.
And no, literally no one is calling for touch unless you are a senior citizen. Op there are Windows computers that have touch and they are horrible.
There will be 32gb ram next year and you will still not buy one you will just complain.
Ive never stated he is working on a touchscreen Mac. You are projecting things you want in a personal computer.
The fact that you think a computer will last the rest of your life shows you are not technically minded At all.
I would suggest saving up all your money and spending it on a Windows touchscreen laptop. So then you can hit up the Microsoft boards and complain about the future not suiting your personal preferences.
I agree with that, the 13" and 15" are completely different size and specifications (stating the obvious). They appear to have created a 15" ultraportable.
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So what you're saying is don't dare offer an opinion that questions Apple? As for 32gb we'll be lucky to see it in 2017, more likely 2018 by the time Intel had rolled out their schedule and assuming Apple don't take an age to refresh again.
Fanboy's like yourself should consider that other's may use their laptop for doing more than updating their Facebook status or setting Jonny Ive as their desktop background.
While I also question OPs interpretation of Ive's interview, I definitely agree that OP may lack the understanding of Apple's philosophy. That said, Jobsian Apple would probably not release a touchscreen mac in any of our lifetimes. But a TC Apple very well could within the next 20 years and here's why.
OPs main argument for introducing a touchscreen mac was that many professionals use it. However, the pro market still is a pretty niche market and Apple is obviously paying more attention in the mainstream consumer market where there are higher revenues. All of Apple's product / service launches have been gearing towards that with Apple Music that was more consumer focused than artist focused (the connect feature is something Apple could have worked on a bit more and used as a platform to build lesser known artists), the push for iPad Pro as a do-it-all machine and a 'pro' machine is a testimony to what Apple deems its pros to be and what the best use cases are. And well the semi-nerfed mac upgrades also server as further evidence.
With that in mind, I won't say that OPs pro market is negligible, in fact MS is making a big push to take that market away from Apple, but for MS the H/W alone may be a bit difficult and it may in some distant future want to consider buying Adobe and optimising their line of products (wouldn't be too crazy of an idea if MS was serious about the creative market).
For Apple, it knows that it has the SW advantage and doesn't necessarily have to listen to customer complaints. ESPECIALLY when the issues are already being dealt with by other companies. OP gave a perfect example of a great product as evidence why Apple needs to launch touchscreen macs, but to me it's more like the perfect evidence why Apple doesn't have to. Adding a touchscreen may make or break the experience for many average users and instead of trying to redesign macOS to be touch compatible it can simply rely on third-parties to scratch the itch that people like OP have. No loss in profit for Apple and pros get what they want, albeit begrudgingly.
So yeah... while OP makes good arguments as to why Apple should consider launching touchscreen macs, I think OP also answers the question as to why it wouldn't in the near future.
The only scenario where I see a full touchscreen mac happening is if 99% of windows PCs ship with one and have been for five years.
I believe you are talking about 2-in-1 devices (like MS Surface), which combine functionality of both a tablet and a laptop. While they does look very attractive, I think that such devices currently compromise too much to be truly useful. I am sure that in not so distant future computers become fast and advanced enough, so that we can get all the potentially useful power inside a single tabled-sized machine, that could indeed be used flexibly. But currently, a laptop + tablet is a more capable combination in my opinion. In this sense, I fully agree with Apple, even if the popular opinion seems to differ.
Products like Slate Raven and Surface Studio are of course very interesting and useful, but they are also niche products. They might be nice for an artist who could benefit from switching the interaction modes. However, they don't do anything for users like me, who mostly work with text.
Translation: On a laptop, it's a gimmick that is only used to checkmark a box on a spec sheet that you can't find much use for other than to "have the option".
I think it's incredibly presumptuous for people to think Apple hired all those Beats record execs and producers just to not use them to test stuff that may be geared specifically for their use case.
I love touch and I love my iPad Pro. In fact iPad Pro is my favorite Apple device ever. However, we are talking about laptops here. Laptops may be on their way out but we simply aren't at a place where iOS can take over from where MacBooks left off....and the ergonomics of a touch display laptop don't work. Even in the videos provided you see the touch display completely divorced from the keyboard. The keyboard is there simply to make the touch display work better as with the iPad Pro.
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Jonathan Ive said (paraphrased) "there are many problems with current touchscreens on laptops, but I don't want to go into elaborating on what those problems are, since I would start talking about things we are working on". In other words, he accidentally let slip that they are working on a touchscreen laptop that solves the perceived issues.
Furthermore, a touchscreen is a secondary/bonus input method. Just because you don't think you'll use it doesn't mean it's not useful. Multiple applications can take massive advantage of it. Music production, painting, board games, to name a few. And by the way, on the Slate Raven, you pretty much don't touch the keyboard at all. The play/record, mixer, editing controls and audio plugins are all controlled via the screen.
I bet Apple would have had a touchscreen laptop already if they hadn't backed themselves into a corner by bashing Windows PCs with touchscreens. They were late to join and didn't want to look like followers. Now their extreme pride requires that they tweak the concept a bit to make it their own. Then they'll call it "revolutionary".
Anyway, I've thought some more and decided to keep my existing, older Macs until the day Apple ships Jonathan Ive's touchscreen laptop. Then I'm jumping in on day 1 of it going onsale. Heck I'm pre-ordering when that happens. ;-)
Furthermore, a touchscreen is a secondary/bonus input method. Just because you don't think you'll use it doesn't mean it's not useful. Multiple applications can take massive advantage of it. Music production, painting, board games, to name a few. And by the way, on the Slate Raven, you pretty much don't touch the keyboard at all. The play/record, mixer, editing controls and audio plugins are all controlled via the screen.
I bet Apple would have had a touchscreen laptop already if they hadn't backed themselves into a corner by bashing Windows PCs with touchscreens. They were late to join and didn't want to look like followers. Now their extreme pride requires that they tweak the concept a bit to make it their own. Then they'll call it "revolutionary".
Anyway, I've thought some more and decided to keep my existing, older Macs until the day Apple ships Jonathan Ive's touchscreen laptop. Then I'm jumping in on day 1 of it going onsale. Heck I'm pre-ordering when that happens. ;-)
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I think what Ive is insinuating is that an one-size-fit all approach exemplified by having a single touchscreen on a traditionally non-touch interface creates more problems than it solves. Therefore, rather than do a typical adaptation of the touchscreen (i.e. just slab a touch sensor on the main display) Apple is choosing to examine the problems and weigh the benefits of adding touch input in certain scenarios. The Touch Bar is certainly the beginning of Apple's endeavour in further enriching the human interaction with Macs and the rumoured adaptive e-ink keyboard may be one of the many ways in which Apple will bring the benefits we enjoy from direct touch input (whether with or without actually bringing touch input methods).
The kind of device you are imagining is more suitable for a desktop and not a laptop. Perhaps it could be done with an adaptive display that has the option to turn the display interface into a secondary touch panel when connected by a laptop, but having a laptop with enough functionality to warrant usefulness with a touchscreen may be a tough sell, especially when your reference device is the Slate Raven (is that what.. 20"+ ?).
Obviously right now touch screens are all the rage, but who know in the future we may not even need touch input and instead may be using alternative input methods to simplify our current tasks. I won't rule out a touchscreen Mac but I certainly think that a touchscreen MacBook pro would probably not happen, (I mean it would pretty much be an iPad Pro with a keyboard running macOS).