Thoughts on OS X Mountain Lion??

[KnightWRX]

That unfortunately does not make me like autosave any more than I did before.

What don't you like about it anyhow ? How is it different ? versions/autosave provides you the same functionality you had before, except in an automated way. But check this : Now instead of only having the last copy you saved, you have... well... all of them.

Autosave saves something it shouldn't have ? So what, versions has that copy you want. Save as ? Sure, duplicate and save will create a whole new copy and tree from the document you're working on.

It's all still there, with the added benefit of not losing work and always having more than 1 revision available.

 

[dashiel]

I'm the kinda guy who reads everything that pops up on my screen before clicking, so no, I don't think I have ever made that mistake. I do however appreciate that many users tend to click out of sheer terror when a dialogue box appears, so I agree that in rare cases, the mistake can happen.

Fair enough, that’s A) incredibly impressive, I probably accidentally save/don’t save once or twice a month. I wish more of my apps had Versions. B) I think your meticulousness makes you the rare case.

 

[QuarterSwede]

Uh ? I'm the same I always am. Look at the Siri thread or the iPhone 4 antenna one if miss the "negativity". You do realise I hang around here because I actually like some of Apple's stuff right ? 😉

Maybe I didn't mean positive, civil is probably more appropriate. The KnightWRX that's in my head is generally brash.

 

[Brenster]

-Safari is blazing. HTML5 support improved. Search/Address bar integrated. Seems to store Passwords. Tabs autoscale across. RSS seems to be currently MIA or just broken.

I'm hoping RSS functionality will be restored to Safari in time. I can understand removing it from Mail.app (I was never convinced a mail client was a natural place for notifying new web content), but the listing of new RSS content by site and also by group on the menu bar is part and parcel of my daily use of Safari/OSX.

Does clicking on a saved RSS bookmark still bring up the RSS feed for that site?

 

[klaxamazoo]

What don't you like about it anyhow ? How is it different ? versions/autosave provides you the same functionality you had before, except in an automated way. But check this : Now instead of only having the last copy you saved, you have... well... all of them.

Autosave saves something it shouldn't have ? So what, versions has that copy you want. Save as ? Sure, duplicate and save will create a whole new copy and tree from the document you're working on.

It's all still there, with the added benefit of not losing work and always having more than 1 revision available.

Yes, you can work with Versions to recover a old state or develop a workflow for "Don't Save" whether through the use of preemptive Duplicates or the more time consuming Revert process.

But that is not a good excuse for why there SHOULD not be a quick "Don't Save" method that was as easy as before (i.e. CMD-w, CMD-d for close, don't save). There is a nice, comfortable security to Versions for those that have had issues saving documents or maybe just like not even having to think about it. That is great. But I have yet to see a good reason as to WHY a "Don't Save" shortcut and/or menu command should not be enabled.

It is clear that a good number of people, myself included, routinely don't want to save their changes. So WHY MUST the Don't Save process be more convoluted or take more work than it did before just because the Save process is easier?

 

[KnightWRX]

Yes, you can work with Versions to recover a old state or develop a workflow for "Don't Save" whether through the use of preemptive Duplicates or the more time consuming Revert process.

But that is not a good excuse for why there SHOULD not be a quick "Don't Save" method that was as easy as before (i.e. CMD-w, CMD-d for close, don't save). There is a nice, comfortable security to Versions for those that have had issues saving documents or maybe just like not even having to think about it. That is great. But I have yet to see a good reason as to WHY a "Don't Save" shortcut and/or menu command should not be enabled.

It is clear that a good number of people, myself included, routinely don't want to save their changes. So WHY MUST the Don't Save process be more convoluted or take more work than it did before just because the Save process is easier?

If you don't want to save your changes, why not just Duplicate, do whatever it is you want to do without saving and then close without... er... saving ?

Achieves the same result. Really, the "workflows" where you "don't want to save" are rare and are still possible using Duplicate or revert as you pointed out.

So nothing is lost, a lot was gained. What's the big deal ?

 

[ixodes]

As I continue to scour the web for articles on Mountain Lion, my initial impression is improving. There's a lot to sift through in search of a comprehensive picture, at this early juncture.

Having read a tremendous amount I am beginning to regain the enthusiasm that I like to experience around Apples "desktop OS" (or OS X) ... since I can't call it "Mac OS" any longer 🙂

 

[klaxamazoo]

If you don't want to save your changes, why not just Duplicate, do whatever it is you want to do without saving and then close without... er... saving ?

Achieves the same result. Really, the "workflows" where you "don't want to save" are rare and are still possible using Duplicate or revert as you pointed out.

So nothing is lost, a lot was gained. What's the big deal ?

But why not just have a "Don't Save" command?

The big deal is the following:

A) You might not know that you don't want to save until you have been working for a while. i.e. it is too late to Duplicate. You can Revert but that is assuming you can find the Version you want to Revert back to after an hour or so of working. Also, that requires 2 menu commands, an animation, waiting for Version to load the changes, scrolling through the changes, hoping you find the correct change, selecting that (hopefully) correct version, waiting for an animation and then you are finally back to what CMD-w, CMD-d used to get you

B) Versions corrupts data. A change on Lion is automatically the only version you have in SL, Windows, as that file is copied or propagated through a network

C) You still haven't supplied a reason WHY a Don't Save command should not be implemented.



It is clear that you only care about the end results. i.e. I got my document back to the State I want, so I am fine. Some of us care about the Journey and process itself. Personally, I hate driving, I hate the entire experience. If I can bike to the store I will even though the end result of being at the store is the same, I don't drive to the store because the process itself is annoying.

Workflow matters to some people. It is great that the end result is all you need or ultimately gauge the quality of a product or process by. But the end result does not enough. If I cared only about end result I would have stuck with Windows XP and my old Dell laptop. It got the job done. But I hated working on it, just like I now hate working with Lion. I hate the workflow imposed by Mission Control and Versions. Since a good majority of my work consists of creating and editing documents, MC and Versions impacts my workflow and is unacceptable. Luckily I still have a SL compatible laptop that is good for another 3-4 years and I can sell my Lion Macbook Air when I've finished my PhD.

 

[Brendando]

Personally I'm all for the changes, I have a couple of iOS devices, and tighter integration with my MPB will be great. I've been running the Developer Preview since release as my main OS, and it's been pretty solid all things considered- apart from the App Store, which for some reason has been incredibly bad. I like the unification of everything, and if anything I'd have them push it further. If they're going to do it, do it completely, and not in a half-ass*d way like they seem to be doing a lot in the last couple of years.

I'm all for them putting in new features, but for god sake, implement them properly before moving onto the next batch. E.G, Launchpad in Lion- it could be a great feature, but it needs work. Only in Mountain Lion have they introduced a search function. I'd also love to see some underlying optimisations- my current set-up is no slouch, and particularly now that I have the SSD and 8GB Ram running inside it, I'd like the shutdowns and startups to be as fast as possible. I'm all for the fluidity of the OS, and all these animations that are being put in, but not if it means sacrificing performance. When I was on 4GB of RAM on Lion I thought about reverting to Snow Leopard, but I'd grown too fond of the GUI changes, and so simply stuck it out. Once I'd got 8GB RAM everything was great again.

Additionally, I see where they're going with all these counterpart applications to iOS, (reminders, notes) and I'm all for cohesion. What I'm a little bit dubious about is the consequential abuse that the OS is taking in terms of consistency- the apps look totally different to one another. There's the nice silvers/greys/linen of the system that are consistent throughout, and then you have Calendars faux leather, Reminders black faux leather, and the Notes "teared page" effect. These I can just about put up with because they're clearly there to mirror their iOS counterparts- and they still look like they belong on OS X. But Address Book is disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. I mean honestly, who in their right mind thought that turning it into an actual representation of a real-life address book on THE MAC thought that it would be a good fit? It looks awkward, clunky, and I hate opening it now.

/end rant.

 

[DeckMan]

You might not know that you don't want to save until you have been working for a while. i.e. it is too late to Duplicate. You can Revert but that is assuming you can find the Version you want to Revert back to after an hour or so of working.

But they *have* exactly that. As long as you don't manually save (or "create a version"), the document will have the "edited" in the title bar and you can very simply return to the last saved version. I haven't tested (yet) what happens after an extended period of not saving, but even after quitting and relaunching the app, the document won't lose it's edited status, and will even allow you to return to the last version when duplicating, if you want to keep both.

Only if you close the document without "not saving" and reopen it, you will have to go the "Browse Versions" route.

 

[klaxamazoo]

But they *have* exactly that. As long as you don't manually save (or "create a version"), the document will have the "edited" in the title bar and you can very simply return to the last saved version. I haven't tested (yet) what happens after an extended period of not saving, but even after quitting and relaunching the app, the document won't lose it's edited status, and will even allow you to return to the last version when duplicating, if you want to keep both.

Only if you close the document without "not saving" and reopen it, you will have to go the "Browse Versions" route.

Once again. Please supply a reason WHY a "Don't Save" quick option SHOULD not be included. Just because there is a convoluted work-around is not excuse for purposely leaving out a quick "Don't Save"

I do not want to have to go through:
- 2 menu commands
- 1 start Versions animation
- 1 wait for computer to think and collect verions
- 1 visually find the correct version
- 1 select the correct version
- 1 select restore or click the correct version
- 1 exit Versions animation
- 1 CMD-w to close the document

versus
- 1 CMD-w to close the document
- 1 CMD-d to not save

or an updated method
- 1 CMD-d to not save followed by 1 CMD-w for close

or maybe
- 1 CMD-SHIFT-w for close without saving.

A keyboad method takes less than 1 second. The current Versions method takes a lot more time and is significantly more distracting.


Please, one of you people provide a detailed REASON as to WHY Versions SHOULD not have a quick "Don't Save." I'm talking about a REASON, not a justification.

 

[DeckMan]

This wasn't a justification, it was an argument that they *have* a don't save feature. It's two menu commands, period. Explained in my post just above.

What else do you need? They have a "don't save in advance" (i.e. duplicate) and a "forget all the changes I just made".

Edit: Wait, I haven't actually explained it, have I? Whoops. It's by clicking the little triangle next to Edited, then clicking "return to the last version" (or whatever it's called in English).

 

[KnightWRX]

But why not just have a "Don't Save" command?

The big deal is the following:

A) You might not know that you don't want to save until you have been working for a while. i.e. it is too late to Duplicate. You can Revert but that is assuming you can find the Version you want to Revert back to after an hour or so of working.

How hard is that ? 😕

When you say revert, it asks "Last saved version" (the one you manually saved) or pops up a Time Machine like interface in which you can browse the documents side by side in full view...

Also, that requires 2 menu commands, an animation, waiting for Version to load the changes, scrolling through the changes, hoping you find the correct change, selecting that (hopefully) correct version, waiting for an animation and then you are finally back to what CMD-w, CMD-d used to get you

Only if you have hit "Save" in the interim, in which case you would have been screwed in the old way anyhow. Otherwise, you can just choose "Last Saved Version" which reverts back to the last version "YOU SAVED" (as it states right there on the dialog), so nothing is lost really, in fact, this is faster than CMD-w, CMD-d :



Of course, you'd know this if you had... used it. 😉

And frankly, situations where you don't want to save changes are quite rare compared to situations where you want to save.

B) Versions corrupts data. A change on Lion is automatically the only version you have in SL, Windows, as that file is copied or propagated through a network

How is that corrupt ? Don't work straight from network shares (you never should anyhow), and if you do, just use your Lion client to revert them if you've inadvertently saved something you didn't want. The data isn't corrupt, it will still open and be displayed fine on Windows or SL, it just won't be what you expect (it'll be your last changes). That's not what data corruption is. Corruption would be where a file refuses to open because of improper format and it would be unsalvageable without resorting to backups.

C) You still haven't supplied a reason WHY a Don't Save command should not be implemented.

I told you : The developer has that freedom and option to do so. Why isn't it implemented ? That's not for me to say, ask your software vendor why they choose not to do it. But again, I don't see the big fuss of Autosave/Versions since all the data is there.

What happened in the old way if you hit save on those changes you didn't want saved ? You were basically screwed and had to either Time Machine the file (which might not even have the latest changes) or revert them back manually. Now at least you have a proper revert option which is quite independent of backup schedules and will contain all versions.

It is clear that you only care about the end results. i.e. I got my document back to the State I want, so I am fine. Some of us care about the Journey and process itself.

The journey and process can be learned and adapted to. The end result brings a lot of advantages that just weren't there before, but the journey needs some adaptation to get us there.

Again, all this is optional to developers, why don't you ask your software vendor to implement the "don't save" option and see if your demand is met ? In the end, maybe the problem is that you don't adapt to the new way. Heck, if you put aside your hesitations and just worked with it, maybe you'd even start to like it.

 

[klaxamazoo]

How hard is that ? 😕

When you say revert, it asks "Last saved version" (the one you manually saved) or pops up a Time Machine like interface in which you can browse the documents side by side in full view...



Only if you have hit "Save" in the interim, in which case you would have been screwed in the old way anyhow. Otherwise, you can just choose "Last Saved Version" which reverts back to the last version "YOU SAVED" (as it states right there on the dialog), so nothing is lost really, in fact, this is faster than CMD-w, CMD-d :

View attachment 325275

Of course, you'd know this if you had... used it. 😉

Good tip. I had only tested it after closing a file, then Revert Document sends you directly to Versions. Using Revert before you close has the behavior I'm looking for. I made a quick keyboard shortcut using System Preferences and now I have the CMD-D, ENTER, CMD-w I was looking for. As long as I don't close first I'm golden.

And frankly, situations where you don't want to save changes are quite rare compared to situations where you want to save.

Maybe for you. About 20% of the documents I open or modify on any given day I don't want to save or risk saves. Specifically, anything with data or data analysis tables. Duplicate is annoying because there are additional pop-up boxes that you have to go through and the window is now offset and I have to close two documents instead of one. Not a big deal, but details matter and without Steve Jobs around it looks like the details are slipping.

How is that corrupt ? Don't work straight from network shares.

It is corrupt if I go from USB stick to the next computer or if SugarSync syncs it to my other computers. Prior to Lion syncing was not a risk because I never saved documents that should not be saved. However, as long as I remember to CMD-d on my Lion I'm fine, and CMD-d does nothing other than an annoying sound on SL, so no big deal and I might be able to turn that off.

Again, all this is optional to developers, why don't you ask your software vendor to implement the "don't save" option and see if your demand is met ?

The developers aren't on the forums telling people that Versions is fine. Other forum members are. Versions supporters merely say that Versions is better, you were first to write a detailed explanation that justified WHY Versions is better. And you provided the example to show that a Don't Save could be implemented.

The journey and process can be learned and adapted to. The end result brings a lot of advantages that just weren't there before, but the journey needs some adaptation to get us there.

I don't put up with anything I consider sub-par. It is my greatest failing and one of my greatest strengths. I get to do research at levels that few people can because I see problems and solutions to things that others just accept and adapt to. Besides, did Steve Jobs settle for less? Great things happen when you don't comprise your principles.

Anyway, thanks for the Versions insight. That saves me a lot of worry over my data and documents.

 

[KnightWRX]

It is corrupt if I go from USB stick to the next computer or if SugarSync syncs it to my other computers. Prior to Lion syncing was not a risk because I never saved documents that should not be saved.

Last nitpick : it's not corrupt. The data is still perfectly good and usuable, it just might not contain what you think it does on clients that don't support Lion's versions.

The tip is again to work off a local copy before moving it to a shared medium once you're satisfied with the changes. Anyway, this is a tip that applies to every system and every platform. Hitting CTRL-S or CMD-S can become a habit and you might "corrupt" (wrong word, overwrite is more proper) the data just with that quick stroke saving the changes you don't want saved.

That's why usually you have working documents and published documents. You should never work on the published set, only work on the working set. If you don't, your workflow might need some improving to add this sort of staging (in software, we have Development -> Testing -> Quality Assurance -> Production, something we call staging and use deployment technics to get from one to the other, insuring that unwanted "changes" stay in development and only wanted "Changes" make it all the way to production. If something slips out of development, Q&A or Testing catches it).

The developers aren't on the forums telling people that Versions is fine.

They are still the ones that implement it the way it is in their applications though. They are the best people to ask about implementation specifics and why they chose them. Most developers of software have feedback and support contact information to use to ask these kind of questions. Heck, if you're paying enough money for a support contract, you might even get them to modify some behavior (if your support contract includes RFCs as clauses to meet business needs).

 

[klaxamazoo]

Last nitpick : it's not corrupt. The data is still perfectly good and usuable, it just might not contain what you think it does on clients that don't support Lion's versions.

The tip is again to work off a local copy before moving it to a shared medium once you're satisfied with the changes. Anyway, this is a tip that applies to every system and every platform. Hitting CTRL-S or CMD-S can become a habit and you might "corrupt" (wrong word, overwrite is more proper) the data just with that quick stroke saving the changes you don't want saved.

That's why usually you have working documents and published documents. You should never work on the published set, only work on the working set. If you don't, your workflow might need some improving to add this sort of staging (in software, we have Development -> Testing -> Quality Assurance -> Production, something we call staging and use deployment technics to get from one to the other, insuring that unwanted "changes" stay in development and only wanted "Changes" make it all the way to production. If something slips out of development, Q&A or Testing catches it).




They are still the ones that implement it the way it is in their applications though. They are the best people to ask about implementation specifics and why they chose them. Most developers of software have feedback and support contact information to use to ask these kind of questions. Heck, if you're paying enough money for a support contract, you might even get them to modify some behavior (if your support contract includes RFCs as clauses to meet business needs).

I have backups of my most important processes and have working, submitted versions of documents. But I have 200 mB data files corrupted when the Lion Version of TextEdit crashed. Luckily I have a couple of backups, but this type of Crash = Corruption in something as simple as TextEdit was not something I had seen before.

I did contact Apple and spoke with an Engineer, supplied data, etc.

On the issue of working with Apple Developers, I have been unable to get an answer to things like "Don't Save" (which you just answered) or why MC doesn't at least fully expand the windows so that you can see the Content when you swipe up. I also can't get an answer as to how to see the content of more than one Space at a time. I've filed Bug Reports and submitted feedback. I get nothing back. I've looked at the Apple videos to see how they intended it, but those only show extremely low content examples with a few applications. MC with 40-60 windows just doesn't work as well as SL and I can only use my Macbook Air when I have limited Content needs.

For developers of the small applications I use, I get great feedback and I've seen the developers tell users in the forums what workflow they intended and why they chose that workflow over others. That type of support was one reason I use the Datagraph graphing framework in all my little research applications.

 

[OLDCODGER]

What's wrong with Apple IDs? Other than their failure to merge multiple accounts?

I much prefer to walk in, pay cash, and walk out - anonymously. The idea of Apple having all that private information - even if only to gain access to the OS, bothers me greatly.

 

[Jagardn]

What don't you like about it anyhow ? How is it different ? versions/autosave provides you the same functionality you had before, except in an automated way. But check this : Now instead of only having the last copy you saved, you have... well... all of them.

Autosave saves something it shouldn't have ? So what, versions has that copy you want. Save as ? Sure, duplicate and save will create a whole new copy and tree from the document you're working on.

It's all still there, with the added benefit of not losing work and always having more than 1 revision available.

Well put, I happen to like versions also. I switched to Pages and Numbers just for the Autosave feature.

 

[KnightWRX]

I much prefer to walk in, pay cash, and walk out - anonymously. The idea of Apple having all that private information - even if only to gain access to the OS, bothers me greatly.

Your name, address and visa card number ? 🙄

Never mail ordered anything in your life have you ?

 

[JohnDoe98]

I much prefer to walk in, pay cash, and walk out - anonymously. The idea of Apple having all that private information - even if only to gain access to the OS, bothers me greatly.

Every bank, utility, online service/retailer, and many retail stores, store the same amount of information as Apple does; I don't see what makes them special. I take it you never order anything online, and only ever use Cash? Also, for what it's worth, digital distribution tends to make things cheaper and greener. I applaud the transition away from more conventional means. I too care about privacy, but banking information, as Apple stores, doesn't worry me much. The stuff Google and Facebook pull, well that's more open for debate.

 

[Jagardn]

Not a big deal, but details matter and without Steve Jobs around it looks like the details are slipping.

Autosave/Versions was around while Steve was still at Apple. Hell, it was probably his idea.

 

[RamGuy]

Software Update seems to be having some bugs.

First of, AppStore wont actually tell me anything about system updates until I actually launch it through the software update link the old fashion way. They it will automatically fire up AppStore and provide me with one line named OS X Update with three updates if I click "more".

But if I only launch AppStore itself and go to the update tab (without going through the old software update route) it will say everything is up-to-date.


And the update procedure seems bugged as well, it seems like Apple is embedding all system updates into one simple "update" click, and advanced users can click "more" and see details of all parts of the update and chose what they want to update, and what not to update. But for me clicking the primarily update button doesn't really seem to do anything as it wont trigger all the sub-updates to start installing so I have to actually click "more" and chose to install each update manually for anything to happen in the first place.

And oddly enough the installation doesn't seem to do anything either. I've got listed one HP Printer Software Update, one Thunderbolt Firmware Update and one Canon Printer Software Update and each time I hit the update button it will ask me for a restart, and upon restarting it will go into the regular OS X Installing Updates modus which takes just a few seconds, they it reboots with no sign of a firmware update and upon launching the software update again all the three updates remains in the list like none of them have gotten installed.


I have tried to update and install these updates five times in a row, but nothing seems to be happening.

 

[notrack]

Well, I'd like to chime in here. I am one of those who really dislikes this auto-save feature. Acutally I downgraded from SL to Lion because I wanted this feature. Autosave and Versions. Finally getting rid of those Document piles v1, v2, v3, v3.2.4 etc.

But my disapointment was great and I honestly hate this implementation. I think most of us agree that saving our hard work in real time is basically a good thing. But, it is poorly implemented. This is why I think so:

Firstly, we all know that it isn't about the fact that the features are available but about how they are designed. It's about simplicity and usablility.

My example would be: One single keyboard shortcut is the quickest and easiest way to place a copy of your file somewhere and directly continue working while the old file is automatically closed, since you usually don't need it anymore.

Secondly, I haven't seen any case of "forgotten savings", the user is always asked whether to keep the changes or not. Clicking "Don't save" instead of "Save" would be a more than rare occurence.

Additionally I would say the counts for theneed of not-saving are much higher than the counts for the human error of mixing up "Don't save" and "Save".

Thirdly, try to find the right version of your text- or spreadsheet-document in that tiny starwars window if you have more than half a page filled. Hope your overtime will be paid. 😀

What I would rather like to see is a less radical approach. Documents could be saved as versions in the background, so if you really faceplant dogsh't with "Don't Save" or you have a power loss on your 16GB MacMini, you could get the backuped status in a timeline.

Just imagine Autosave saves comments that are not intended for the customer/friend/professor/etc... urgh...

But, again...

This won't happen because there is no "Save" on the iPad. And that's the reason why they killed it on the mac. (In the first place I thought they were just smoking the wrong stuff, but since Phil said they will introduce the iPad saving style on the Mac... well...) Hope they'll come up with some fancy ideas like selling the good old folder as "Location" or whatever.

I work with complex documents in Numbers and I frequently have to try some "what if this or that" (similar to the creatives with image editing). Sure there are workarounds like clicking the top bar menu or duplicating the file in advance. But all of that isn't the way of simplifying or getting the computer out of the way. It's just the opposite. Too much sacrifice for a tiny bit of security.

 

[OLDCODGER]

Your name, address and visa card number ? 🙄

Never mail ordered anything in your life have you ?

No, and since I don't even live in America, why should my home address be required?

 

[JohnDoe98]

Your name, address and visa card number ? 🙄

Never mail ordered anything in your life have you ?

Actually, he only needs a name and address since the Apple store allows Gift cards that he can buy with cash. Oh, and Apple never verifies the addresses, nor do they ever send anything to it by mail, so it seems like an odd thing to complain about (especially since they don't share that info with anyone).