Thoughts on Tipping

[Blue Velvet]

No- they don't protest en-masse. It's a cultural difference, and it's fairly well-accepted. It seems insane to you, but it doesn't to us for the most part.

Nothing to do with culture. UK people tend not to tip in restaurants because the majority (80-90%) of restaurants here have a 'service charge' of usually 15-20%. It's usually marked as optional but really, the tip is already usually added to the bill.

It's rare to tip on top of that although I've done it from time to time, but strictly cash, and only to the person working my table so that it's not split with the managers or kitchen porters.

 

[neiltc13]

Nothing to do with culture. UK people tend not to tip in restaurants because the majority (80-90%) of restaurants here have a 'service charge' of usually 15-20%. It's usually marked as optional but really, the tip is already usually added to the bill.

It's rare to tip on top of that although I've done it from time to time, but strictly cash, and only to the person working my table so that it's not split with the managers or kitchen porters.

Where did you pull that 80-90% figure from?

 

[Blue Velvet]

Where did you pull that 80-90% figure from?

From years of experience of eating out in London. I've only come across a few places that don't put a service charge on the bill. Wherever you live or dine out might be different.

 

[leekohler]

Nothing to do with culture. UK people tend not to tip in restaurants because the majority (80-90%) of restaurants here have a 'service charge' of usually 15-20%. It's usually marked as optional but really, the tip is already usually added to the bill.

Obviously it does have to do with culture, Blue. You guys do things one way, and we do it another. How does that not have anything to do with our countries' difference in culture?

 

[Blue Velvet]

Obviously it does have to do with culture, Blue. You guys do things one way, and we do it another. How does that not have anything to do with our countries' difference in culture?

It's not an inherently cultural thing. Most Brits won't tip if an itemised charge is already added to the bill and neither would you guys. That's the difference. However, what is also rare here is for people to dispute the 'optional' service charge... because that would mean having to create...

...a scene.

 

[leekohler]

It's not an inherently cultural thing. Most Brits won't tip if an itemised charge is already added to the bill and neither would you guys. That's the difference. However, what is also rare here is for people to dispute the 'optional' service charge... because that would mean having to create...

...a scene.

However, your service charges are on the bill. Ours aren't. That's a pretty big difference.

 

[northy124]

From years of experience of eating out in London. I've only come across a few places that don't put a service charge on the bill. Wherever you live or dine out might be different.

London is not the UK so really you can't use the % as reference to the UK, so really only 80 - 90% of places in London include it as 80 - 90% where I eat doesn't.

 

[Blue Velvet]

London is not the UK so really you can't use the % as reference to the UK, so really only 80 - 90% of places in London include it as 80 - 90% where I eat doesn't.

Whatever. I think I already said that. I've paid service charges in other parts of the UK as well including Scotland, so I'm not interested in your pedantry or where you eat.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

...a scene.

*Gasp*

 

[anjinha]

I understand that in the U.S. it is a custom to tip and don't mind doing it if I'm ever there. But why should I tip even bad service? I understand that waiters usually don't earn enough but if that's the case they should try to deliver better service. I have no problem whatsoever with tipping... I do have a problem with being expected to tip bad service.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I understand that in the U.S. it is a custom to tip and don't mind doing it if I'm ever there. But why should I tip even bad service?

Well, it isn't customary to tip for bad service...

 

[anjinha]

Well, it isn't customary to tip for bad service...

I've seen many people in this thread saying that when they have bad service they only tip 10% or whatever.

 

[Macaddicttt]

I've seen many people in this thread saying that when they have bad service they only tip 10% or whatever.

If you've had less than good service, you still tip 10% because waiters make less than minimum wage. If the service was horrendous, you leave absolutely no tip. Or if it was so bad that you want to insult them since they were not only bad but offensive, maybe a few pennies left on the table.

Really, you only don't leave a tip if the service was bad. Not mediocre, not moderately bad, but just downright bad.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

If you've had less than good service, you still tip 10% because waiters make less than minimum wage. If the service was horrendous, you leave absolutely no tip. Or if it was so bad that you want to insult them since they were not only bad but offensive, maybe a few pennies left on the table.

Really, you only don't leave a tip if the service was bad. Not mediocre, not moderately bad, but just downright bad.

agreed. I have only done that once and that is because it crossed so poor. Like dropping the food on the table like saying here and never checking on us once.

I have done 10% every now and then but that was just poor service. 15% is if it is what I expect and 20% if I really liked it. If I am feeling lazy I just double the tax which works out to be 16.5% most places in Texas.

 

[anjinha]

If you've had less than good service, you still tip 10% because waiters make less than minimum wage. If the service was horrendous, you leave absolutely no tip. Or if it was so bad that you want to insult them since they were not only bad but offensive, maybe a few pennies left on the table.

Really, you only don't leave a tip if the service was bad. Not mediocre, not moderately bad, but just downright bad.

I've worked as a waitress for one summer. I was working 12 hours a day, an hour away from home and sometimes doing the work of 3 or 4 people so I was always exhausted. I still would always give the best service possible and I didn't expect tips since here it's not a custom to give tips (although much appreciated). Why would anyone not do the same if they depend on tips to make a living?

If waiters and waitresses depend on tips I don't mind tipping average service or up. I don't understand why I'm still expected to tip bad service.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

I've worked as a waitress for one summer. I was working 12 hours a day, an hour away from home and sometimes doing the work of 3 or 4 people so I was always exhausted. I still would always give the best service possible and I didn't expect tips since here it's not a custom to give tips (although much appreciated). Why would anyone not do the same if they depend on tips to make a living?

If waiters and waitresses depend on tips I don't mind tipping average service or up. I don't understand why I'm still expected to tip bad service.

but in your country it is not the custom and I also willing to be bet you are paid quite a bit more. In the US the wages the waiters get paid is very low at best because it is expect they will get a 15% tip. It makes up the difference.

I think how the current system is the waiters get more, and the customers pay less because if it was the other way around the restaurants would raises price more than 15-20% and blame it on the wages while the waiters might see 5-10% everything added to their paycheck. Restaurants pocket the rest.

On top of that if the service is crap all you can do is complain to the management. The waiters still gets paid the same. If you get crappy service walking out with no tips hurts the waiter really badly in the wallet.

Also do not think they make that much money. On a good day they might pull in 150. and every now and then a 200. but that really is not that much money over all. Goes even bigger when you factor in no paid vacation or sick time and most of the time very limited if any benefits.

 

[anjinha]

but in your country it is not the custom and I also willing to be bet you are paid quite a bit more. In the US the wages the waiters get paid is very low at best because it is expect they will get a 15% tip. It makes up the difference.

I think how the current system is the waiters get more, and the customers pay less because if it was the other way around the restaurants would raises price more than 15-20% and blame it on the wages while the waiters might see 5-10% everything added to their paycheck. Restaurants pocket the rest.

So everyone but the owners get screwed.

I understand that and as I said I have no problems with tipping. I just think it's up to the waiters to try to do a good job so they do get tips. I have no problem with tipping for average service even though I wouldn't do that in my country. I do have a problem though with rewarding bad service. If they want to earn more it's up to them to do a good job.

 

[EricNau]

I don't understand why I'm still expected to tip bad service.

Service isn't either good or bad, it's a spectrum, as is the tipping range between 0 and 20%.

 

[X5-452]

Working in the service industry as a server, and now running a restaurant, I have some notions on tipping that will never change.

People need to realize that most servers make the minimum wage possible. In Alberta it's $8.40 an hour. Working full time, that comes out to $16, 380 a year before taxes. Last time I checked - that wasn't enough to live on, and actually falls below the Canadian poverty line (which is $24k a year). On top of that, servers need to tip out the kitchen and the support staff. You leave no tip, and the server must therefore pay for you to have come and eaten. Where does it come from? Their own pocket. If it comes from their own pocket, they effectively make less than minimum wage.

I tip poor service the standard 15%. Nothing less. I tip the minimum standard for poor service.

For good/decent service I tip 20%.

For outstanding service I tip anything past 20%.

I was out at a pub the other week, and the service was A1 and the company was exceptional. My bill totaled $90 and I left $150, which comes out to a $60 tip.

When you make next to nothing, you rely solely on the tip. If you can't afford a tip, then you shouldn't be eating out. It's part of the math. You go to a concert, you expect to not only pay for the ticket but the service charge. You go out to a restaurant, you expect to pay for the food + the service charge (aka the tip). If you can't pay the service charge why would you think you're getting a concert ticket? If you can't pay a tip, then why bother going out?

Outside of restaurants, I tip my taxi driver $5 most of the time. I tip the Pizza 73 guy about $5. I tend to tip quite excessively when it comes to diners. I understand that I got lucky getting involved with a premium casual restaurant that secured me a minimum of $100 a day in tips (www.moxies.ca for all those curious). But I understand that diners don't charge as much, yet the person runs around probably more than I ever did. Leaving $5 on a ten dollar bill at a diner is perfectly acceptable.

 

[marbles]

I understand that and as I said I have no problems with tipping. I just think it's up to the waiters to try to do a good job so they do get tips. I have no problem with tipping for average service even though I wouldn't do that in my country. I do have a problem though with rewarding bad service. If they want to earn more it's up to them to do a good job.

after reading this thread and knowing what I know now, ye I think this is the common sense approach for visitors to the USA, I would definitely take this route if I was to visit....I had no idea it is as bad as it is for them, at all...If it was made common knowledge, ie info given to all visitors about the remuneration package issue facing all waiting staff then that would make anyone(with half a brain) see the need for tipping, even if the service is just average...

Though it really would 'go against the grain' for me to tip for average service so I'll get out of that by only visiting places that are renowned for excellent service

Service isn't either good or bad, it's a spectrum, as is the tipping range between 0 and 20%.

Comment of the thread

Working in the service industry as a server, and now running a restaurant, I have some notions on tipping that will never change.

People need to realize that most servers make the minimum wage possible. In Alberta it's $8.40 an hour. Working full time, that comes out to $16, 380 a year before taxes. Last time I checked - that wasn't enough to live on, and actually falls below the Canadian poverty line (which is $24k a year). On top of that, servers need to tip out the kitchen and the support staff. You leave no tip, and the server must therefore pay for you to have come and eaten. Where does it come from? Their own pocket. If it comes from their own pocket, they effectively make less than minimum wage.

I tip poor service the standard 15%. Nothing less. I tip the minimum standard for poor service.

For good/decent service I tip 20%.

For outstanding service I tip anything past 20%.

I was out at a pub the other week, and the service was A1 and the company was exceptional. My bill totaled $90 and I left $150, which comes out to a $60 tip.

When you make next to nothing, you rely solely on the tip. If you can't afford a tip, then you shouldn't be eating out. It's part of the math. You go to a concert, you expect to not only pay for the ticket but the service charge. You go out to a restaurant, you expect to pay for the food + the service charge (aka the tip). If you can't pay the service charge why would you think you're getting a concert ticket? If you can't pay a tip, then why bother going out?

Learning again here, now that's another thing that I personally find ridiculous, why oh why should the waiting staff have to 'pay out' the kitchen staff?....are you saying the kitchen staff rely on tips too?- from the waiting staff??.

For poor standard of tipping- why tip? . I don't get this....
You see if you give 0% tip to those who practice poor service, it will cost them money to pay out the kitchen staff, another very good inspiration for them to improve their service skills, in other words it will make them improve or make them get another job....

Tipping poor service is keeping the bad waiting staff in the industry, that's madness to me ,..... the industry doesn't need folks like that in it....the idea is not to piss people off when they come into an establishment with poor service( and pay for it), it is to give them a good experience , surely??....

The general standard of service will eventually start to improve and it'll be easier for me to go out because I'll know everywhere has good service ...
Everyone will be happier:waiting staff, customers and owners,... takings will go up for the staff/owners and enjoyment will go up for patrons.......



...constantly this cycle will repeat resulting in a total Zen state when one dines out .

 

[MacVixen]

I have never waitressed, but I believe the thought process behind paying out the busboy and kitchen staff is that a waiter or waitress doesn't do it all on their own. Customers complain if the food is late coming from the kitchen and it's the waiter that is penalized via tip. Water glass not refilled or dishes not cleared promptly? That's generally the busboy's task. By paying them out, the waiter is ensuring that kitchen and busboy staff also have an incentive to provide the excellent service - sharing the wealth, so to speak.

Is this the best system in the world? Probably not. But it is what it is - I cannot see the restaurant world changing their system anytime soon.

 

[samiwas]

Wow, this is the first thread on tipping I have ever read that, first of all, was fairly civilized, and, secondly, had the majority supporting tipping.

I have some mixed views on the subject. I am usually a very good tipper, as my wife used to work in restaurants for quite some time, and I heard all the horror stories. I will still tip, albeit a little lower, to a server who is just OK (maybe they are new, or have some other problem?). But, I do not believe that someone who gives poor or very bad service should still receive a decent tip. I will not tip or will give a very low tip to someone who is rude or just isn't doing their job.

For instance the one server we had once who literally could not remember a single order between the time we ordered and the time he got to the resister to ring it up. He forgot EVERY SINGLE THING and had to come back to the table to ask again. Every appetizer. Every drink. Every meal. And most of what he brought to the table was still wrong. Then when my wife gave him her employee discount card (she worked the same chain, different location), he thought she was giving it to him as a gift and said "Oh Thank You!!" and put it in his pocket. He did not get a tip.

Or a bartender in Boston once who required three requests for the same drink over the course of about half an hour before we finally got it...and we were seated at the bar...and it wasn't busy. By the time we got it, we had to leave to catch a train. And it was still on the bill. His tip? A note on the receipt that said "Her drink was your tip." Next time, maybe he will be better.

I am a very laid back and courteous person, and it takes a lot to offend me or piss me off. So a waiter really does have to be bad to get me to that point.

And this whole argument from nieltc or whoever it was that if the people don't like it, they should just go get another job? Really? Then who is going to serve you? No one WANTS to make $2.13 and hour and get no tips. So in this case, you are saying no one should work in restaurants and serve you. OK. I agree the system should be changed, but that doesn't change that this is what it is right now.

And as to other arguments, a tip should also not be *expected* to give good service. Good service should ALWAYS be given, in any job. This is what I hate about many of today's (younger) people in the workforce. Lazy. Lethargic. Self-centered. I hate going somewhere where some chick is on her cellphone and playing with her fingernails, then acts like I'm somehow interrupting her by coming to the counter to purchase something. The place my wife works now (not a restaurant) has had to fire over half of their staff because they were late all the time, didn't do their jobs, weren't where they were assigned, etc. I just can't fathom how some people just don't care about their jobs whatsoever, then, in many instances, still think they deserve some reward.

PS - I am thoroughly impressed with marbles, and watching his/her view change from "against tipping" to "hey, wait, I understand now!" based on the discussion. Very refreshing.

 

[Dros]

Those bills with the "suggested amounts" can be interpreted in a variety of ways. It is a little bit like e-mails where the tone is lost, so I can see how it is seen as "give us this amount". My understanding is that restaurants started doing that because customers were typically bad at math and got confused about calculating 15%. Of course, if the restaurant is pre-calculating possible tips they shaded it to the high end - you don't see 10% as a choice.

I think the tipping system is byzantine and should be replaced. In my state of Oregon servers are paid minimum wage (rather than the less-than-minimum most other places). The tips are still in the 15-20% range it seems, so it makes serving a more attractive option. I'd rather see servers paid a salary and the diner leaves some coin or not depending on service.

The funny thing is that I don't see a good correlation between tipping and service. The friendliest, most helpful people near me work at the local supermarket. They don't get tipped, but instead have union jobs.