Thunderbolt 5 in New Macs: Features, Benefits, and Is It Needed?

[iMac The Knife]

Impressive jump from 4 to 5, for sure!

 

[WarmWinterHat]

The majority of people can get by with a USB3 compatible device. People shouldn't get swayed to waste money on performance they'll never need. A 12 dollar USB3 dock from Amazon is just as useful to most people, even so-called professionals.

Thunderbolt looks cool, but I personally don't own any thunderbolt gear and have never needed any. I have a usb-c 3.2 t& Samsung SSD and it's nearly as fast as being on-board.

I have a thunderbolt dock at work that runs a couple monitors and has a ethernet port. I almost exclusively work in spreadsheets and a couple medical charting apps, though, so the extra speed makes no difference.

 

[tenthousandthings]

The number of displays supported is limited by the internal hardware of the Mac, not by the number of ports (although ports are certainly a factor). M series SoCs have display controllers built into the SoC and the number of display controllers determines how many displays it supports, alongside how much the GPU can support.

A dock can provide alternate ways to connect, for example having all of the displays to be connected to the dock and then connected to the MBP via a single port for convenience of docking and undocking, but it won't expand the number of supported displays beyond what the SoC can support.

Do we know if Apple’s stated GPU specs are flexible? I ask because I’m looking at the OWC TB5 Hub specs, they indicate it supports “up to three 8K displays @ 60Hz with DSC” while Apple’s M4 Max specs only say 6K — I assume DSC means “display stream compression” here — so maybe that explains the difference, and basically you can have three 8K 60Hz via Thunderbolt but then you can’t use the HDMI port for a fourth display. You can use the HDMI port for a fourth display with up to three 6K 60Hz via Thunderbolt, but not 8K.

Is this a correct understanding?

 

[constructor]

Thunderbolt looks cool, but I personally don't own any thunderbolt gear and have never needed any. I have a usb-c 3.2 t& Samsung SSD and it's nearly as fast as being on-board.

I have a thunderbolt dock at work that runs a couple monitors and has a ethernet port. I almost exclusively work in spreadsheets and a couple medical charting apps, though, so the extra speed makes no difference.

But at the same time I have two 5k Studio Displays connected to my Mac Studio, plus a Thunderbolt dock I had needed for my iMac before but which is still useful, so Thunderbolt is essential for my needs.

So it's perfectly fine if you don't happen to exploit its capabilities at this time, but the flexibility is there for my needs today and for growth in general, possibly for you too!

 

[constructor]

Do we know if Apple’s stated GPU specs are flexible? I ask because I’m looking at the OWC TB5 Hub specs, they indicate it supports “up to three 8K displays @ 60Hz with DSC” while Apple’s M4 Max specs only say 6K — I assume DSC means “display stream compression” here — so maybe that explains the difference, and basically you can have three 8K 60Hz via Thunderbolt but then you can’t use the HDMI port for a fourth display. You can use the HDMI port for a fourth display with up to three 6K 60Hz via Thunderbolt, but not 8K.

Is this a correct understanding?

The number and capabilities of the display controllers in the SoC are the primary limit and M4 SoCs can't drive 8k through all of those, even if Thunderbolt 5 has the capacity to transport more and wider display streams in principle.

 

[ignatius345]

Might get a TB5 enclosure for my Time Machine backups.

They may actually be usable then

My Time Machine drives are slow HDDs connected via USB. Backups take a bit, but it really doesn't affect anything I do so throwing faster hardware at it feels like a waste of money to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[CharlesShaw]

Thunderbolt looks cool, but I personally don't own any thunderbolt gear and have never needed any.

Then how do you run benchmark tests? 😂

 

[WarmWinterHat]

Might get a TB5 enclosure for my Time Machine backups.

They may actually be usable then

My time machine backups (I keep two) are on spinning hard drives. I don't care how slow or fast they are as long as they are finished by the time I wake up.

 

[Greybeard2017]

How effective would it be with an external boot drive? Maybe close to the throughput of the internal drive but would there be latency issues?

 

[doobydoooby]

My one use case: expandable M.2 SSD in a docking port. Satechi did one for the last mini so I'm hoping that'll be updated with the new form factor & speed

 

[iMean]

Next article: Web browsing with TB 4 vs 5. Is it worth upgrading?

 

[Jaap]

1) Mac Mini ... on the front, both of them have two USB-C ports. What are this ports? Thunderbolt 4? USB 4? USB 4 v.2.0? USB 3.2 gen 2? What a mess the modern USB specifications…

The fronts are USB 3.x Gen 2 (up to 10Gb/s)

2) Let’s imagine a simple data transfer from an SSD to the Mac. Does Thunderbolt 4 allow for 40Gbps in one direction? That’s 5GB/s. Or is it 20Gbps in one direction? That would be 2.5GB/s

40Gbps up + 40Gbps down simultaneously.

3) I’ve bought some cheap cables that say they are USB4 40Gbps Thunderbolt 4 compatible. I assume they aren’t Thunderbolt 4 but they match the speed at 40Gbps, right?

Your luck with cheap cables will vary. It may work.

4) Will I get the same speeds connecting that USB4 40Gbps cable to the front ports or the rear ports? If the speeds with a 40Gbps cable are similar, I prefer to use the front ports, not only for convenience , but also because due to the wear of the ports, if they break, at least they won’t damage the motherboard, and are easier to repair.

No. Front ports are max 10gbps

 

[mozumder]

Are we going to get an upgraded Studio Display XDR that can do 120Hz with Thunderbolt 5? The upgraded Mac Pro can't come soon enough...

 

[ufgatorvet]

One question that I’m unclear about is something like are there displays (current or forthcoming) that would require TB5 for full performance? — or, put another way, will there be displays that M4 Pro/Max can drive, but M4 cannot?

Yes, this is the same question running through my brain. Do I go with a ASD now, or be patient for an upgraded TB5 display. I only upgrade my computers once a decade, so I have to make it count.

 

[acrakes]

Has it been confirmed that the M4 Pros can only do 4K and no higher over HDMI 2.1?

 

[joevt]

The enslosures and the TB protocol limit the speed of the connection to about 3200MB/sec. It comes down to overhead and intentional throttling/bandwidth management. TB4 uses four PCI Express 3.0 lanes which is 32Gbps max theoretical and TB5 uses four PCE vs 4 lanes which equals 80Gbps.

TB4 is not necessarily limited to PCIe gen 3 x4.
The ASMedia ASM2464 USB4 v1 chips have PCIe gen 4 x4 so it might be slightly faster than other Thunderbolt 4 solutions.

Definitely Thunderbolt 5 is needed! It not only will help to future-proof your new M4 Pro or M4 Max Mac purchase, but it will also enable current and future high resolution and higher refresh rate displays (up to 120 Gbps Thunderbolt 5 display bitrate), plus Thunderbolt 5 will also raise the maximum data bitrate from 40 Gbps to 80 Gbps. This will effectively double all data transfer speeds between your Mac and external peripherals that support the faster Thunderbolt 5 80 Gbps data rate, including Thunderbolt 5 SSD drives, NAS Servers, Thunderbolt 5 hub and docking stations, and more devices. Also, Thunderbolot 5 ports are backward compatible with Thunderbolt 3 and 4 device speeds, so all your existing hubs, SSDs, and other devices will work fine at 40 Gbps maximum speed.

Thunderbolt 3 with DisplayPort 1.4 and DSC is already sufficient for 6K120.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/5k2k-at-120hz-with-mac-mini-m4.2441289/post-33527666
Thunderbolt 5 with DisplayPort 2.1 will allow 6K120 with lower compression but I don't know if you can tell the difference between different DSC compression levels.
In any case, Thunderbolt 5 will be useful if you want to do more than what Thunderbolt 3/4 can do (like 8K120 or two 6K120) but the display modes that Apple specifies as the max supported by Macs are only 4K240 or 8K60 and do not require Thunderbolt 5 unless you want to connect more than one of them but Apple says you can only connect one of them.

 

[adamw]

How effective would it be with an external boot drive? Maybe close to the throughput of the internal drive but would there be latency issues?

Should be about 6,000MB/second for Thunderbolt 5 SDD drives. OWC Envoy Ultra is a Thunderbolt 5 SSD for pre-sale currently. I regularly use several different Thunderbolt 3 SSD drives, and they all perform at constant data speeds up to 3,200MB/second. In my opinion, Thunderbolt drives are better than USB-C drives, as they often can max the data transfer rates better than slower data rate external USB-C drives or enclosures can. I have used Thunderbolt 3 SSD drives as external boot drives for my M4 Mac mini, and they works well, except for some things like Apple Intelligence won't work if you have the macOS booted from an external Thunderbolt drive. There are some workarounds like installing your Home directory on the external SSD and booting off your internal SSD with macOS installed on the internal drive.

Here is Apple's instructions on how to install macOS on an external drive: https://support.apple.com/en-us/111336

Here is a workaround to place your Home directory on the external drive and keep macOS on the internal SSD drive: https://appleinsider.com/inside/macos-ventura/tips/how-to-move-your-home-directory-in-macos-ventura

 

[ThunderSkunk]

OWC makes far & away the nicest drive enclosures, but I'll never buy another enclosure (or anything else) with a fixed cable in it again. Every time it's either too long or too short and prohibits the drive from use. The envoys cable is so short it can only be used when the MBP is sitting flat on a desk, and then with enough space to have it sitting next to it. Good luck using it anywhere else. Continuously maddening, and I can't believe they're still making it like this.

 

[artifex]

Next article: Web browsing with TB 4 vs 5. Is it worth upgrading?

you should have bought the 10 Gigabit Ethernet... j/k

 

[Greybeard2017]

I have used Thunderbolt 3 SSD drives as external boot drives for my M4 Mac mini, and they works well, except for some things like Apple Intelligence won't work if you have the macOS booted from an external Thunderbolt drive.

How exactly do you define Apple Intelligence?

Would the image clean-up function work? Image playground? How about Xcode code completion?

I wonder why having an external boot drive would make a difference. Have you found any documentation about this?

 

[TMail]

How many words per minute will I be able to type on a TB5 keyboard?

The exact number of angels dancing on the head of a pin.

 

[G5isAlive]

A 12 dollar USB3 dock from Amazon is just as useful to most people, even so-called professionals.

You are doubling down on this from another thread aren't ya? Just because you don't need more, doesn't mean a lot of people want to be restricted to slow data transfer rates, lack of supplied power (unless you provide your own charger, and then it's limited) or run the risk of using a cheap hub with their expensive computer. And why do you doubt there are professionals that use computers? I may not always need to hook up my TB4 capable SSD (and soon my TB5 capable external drive) versus say a cheap wired mouse, but when I do want to, I don't want to go looking for another hub or port. It's convenient to have a hub with modern connections right on hand, and I don't mind paying for it. Whats your beef with that? Is it a save the planet agenda?

 

[PsykX]

God damn... the Mac Mini is one of the pro-est computer I've ever seen.
It beats the crap out of the current Mac Pro in CPU and Neural/AI (not for GPU and max memory of course).
And it has Thunderbolt 5. Which computer has Thunderbolt 5 now on the PC market ?

 

[ridgero]

If you don't know if you need TB5, then you probably won't even need TB4.

 

[JippaLippa]

Quite the upgrade, if we have to be honest!