TikTok Ban Looking Likely After U.S. Supreme Court Hears Case

[NervousFish2]

I have a feeling we are already starting to go in circles. Let me just put it that way. The US, EU and China are not the same concerning the possible influence over American citizens. The US is no adversary/enemy of itself (at least I hope so), the EU definitely is no adversary of the US but China definitely is a adversary of the US and can very quickly become an enemy of the US. So it is of vital importance now to limit and tightly control any influence the Chinese government can exert over the American people.
I'll leave it at that

The US is not an enemy of itself at the international level. Sure. But domestically, it acts increasingly like its own people are an adversary. Hence the point of Segal's article. As to China's potential to "very quickly" become "an enemy" of the US, I think this is extremely exaggerated. China is an adversary, sure. But it has no rational basis to become an enemy of the US, and vice versa. US domestic groups and neocons may have interests in that respect, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. Thankfully, we are a democracy and can fight to restrain our military industrial complex from taking on unhelpful fights with China that don't advance our true interests.

 

[drrich2]

They can not use X and/or a Meta platform the same way they could have used TikTok. It's not even close.

TikTok offers the Chinese government direct unrestricted influence over millions of Americans.

How do you see this playing out in the real world? Sending people pro-Palestinian videos, anti-Taiwan, etc...? Controlling their default content feeds?

So it is of vital importance now to limit and tightly control any influence the Chinese government can exert over the American people.

How far do you think the government should be able to go to do that?

It get that it's a matter of degree, and aiming to prevent the Chinese government from manipulating video content feeds has some appeal. But that leaves some issues unaddressed. The concerns I've seen raised:

1.) They can get user data (e.g.: usage patterns). They can grab what's already in the system (likely pretty representative well into the future). They can add what they can get from hiring marketing research people, buying data (e.g.: through intermediaries) from other social media platforms, getting 'mole' employees into FaceBook and/or X, and of course whatever 'hacking' may offer.

2.) If it's suppression of content related to issues like Taiwan, Uyghurs or Tiananmen Square, etc..., that content is already available on other platforms. How prevalent is TikTok use as a sole news source?

3.) If it's getting CCP propaganda onto popular social media platforms, they can do that anyway. Whether via VPNs to mask their location, or a few operatives in the U.S., it shouldn't be hard to open scads of FaceBook and other social media accounts, and upload propaganda-related memes, videos, posts and so forth so it looks posted in the U.S. by Americans. Remote desktop control software opens up possibilities.

My point is, if the potential threat of Chinese Communist Party manipulation of the American public is as serious a risk as you are concerned, banning TikTok is only going to address a fraction of that. Much of the alleged threat remains.

The issue of foreign interference in U.S. media and public discourse is a legitimate concern. Even if TikTok gets banned, it will remain so. Do you see banning TikTok as 'close enough,' or think the fed.s should do more?

 

[macintologist]

How many people predominantly get their news from TikTok

You would be surprised to know the actual answer.

 

[drrich2]

In the New York Times today, a thought-provoking opinion piece was published (if you can access it via a free or paid account, you can either listen or click 'Transcript' and read it) expressing the views of David French, a self-identified free speech advocate who none-the-less favors a ban. Worth a read:

David French on the Case for Banning TikTok​

I linked the transcript because I prefer to read and that's what I had open. French covered a range of issues, including a number discussed in this thread, but said something that struck me because of implications relevant to but way beyond the current TikTok debate. French said:

"...All of these things that, if you have immediate Chinese control of communication to 170 million Americans — it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that that kind of control could be abused in some rather scary ways. And then, you add on to that concern the problem of the access to personal data.

And you could immediately see where Chinese operatives would be able to perhaps blackmail influential Americans, based on information in their direct messages, say, on TikTok or information related to their activity online. And this would be something that Americans who grew up in the Cold War — just imagine if, during the height of the Cold War, the Soviet Union had direct access to communicate with more than 100 million Americans. We would have found that unacceptable during the Cold War. It’s unacceptable now."

Blackmail potential is interesting, if big shots misbehave on TikTok. Russia and China can communicate with the American people via various online platforms (even if not through their TikTok feeds). To be fair, I've read FaceBook is banned in Russia but Russians access it via VPN. We can reach them, stands to reason they can reach us.

 

[Zest28]

TikTok is so bad, the Chinese government has even banned TikTok themselves. Even the CEO of TikTok won't let his kids use TikTok.

This should have been an instant ban from day 1.

If it is banned in the country where it is made, that should tell you all you need to know.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

TikTok is so bad, the Chinese government has even banned TikTok themselves. Even the CEO of TikTok won't let his kids use TikTok.

This should have been an instant ban from day 1.

If it is banned in the country where it is made, that should tell you all you need to know.

1. TikTok was not banned in China.
2. SJ also did not allow his kids an iPhone or iPad.

US joins Afghanistan, India, Iran, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Nepal on the ban.

TikTok is fundamentally Twitter for video.

Not defending the thing. Just putting your statements under perspective.

The fact is the thing looks to be banned for political reasons. In particular because it’s from top to bottom a Chinese venture. From as a social network it seams not do more then any other popular one.

 

[Zest28]

1. TikTok was not banned in China.
2. SJ also did not allow his kids an iPhone or iPad.

US joins Afghanistan, India, Iran, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Nepal on the ban.

TikTok is fundamentally Twitter for video.

Not defending the thing. Just putting your statements under perspective.

The fact is the thing looks to be banned for political reasons. In particular because it’s from top to bottom a Chinese venture. From as a social network it seams not do more then any other popular one.

TikTok is banned in China. You cannot use it in China.

MacRumors spreading misinformation again.

 

[webkit]

TikTok was not banned in China..

TikTok is not available in China. A similar but separate platform from TikTok owner ByteDance, called Douyin, is available instead. TikTok is only for markets outside of China while Douyin is for the Chinese market and subject to China's strict social media regulations and censorship laws.

 

[Jackbequickly]

The chinese would never allow TikTok as it shows thing that would be illegal in china.

 

[Mousse]

From as a social network it seams not do more then any other popular one.

Wait a minute. You mean there is a high probability that those cringey TikTok content creator will migrate to a different platform?🤔 Ack. As if there isn't enough rubbish floating around on YouTube.

Rescind the ban. TikTok acts as a filter to keep a lot of crap off YouTube.🧐

 

[avz]

I think the real issue is that in 2016, the presidential election was close, mainstream media is produced in cities and it and they lean left, there was shock Donald Trump won over Hillary Clinton and in the 'Why, cruel world, why!' aftermath analyzing, there was a belief Russian meddling on FaceBook might've tilted the needle in Trump's favor.

Makes you wonder if Hillary Clinton has learned her lesson that the ultimate conceptual power awarded only in accordance with a non-structural things like morals or is she still stuck in her structural "no person - no problem" ways by aligning with a Moore/Burns terrorist alliance of desperation.

 

[heretiq]

TikTok is banned in China. You cannot use it in China.

MacRumors spreading misinformation again.

Slight correction: TikTok is not available or permitted to be used in China — not even via VPN. It is effectively banned.

 

[drrich2]

There's an interesting irony reviewing this thread. Some people appear to despise TikTok in particular (and social media more broadly) due to a perception much of the content is deemed worthless and resentment many others choose to entertain themselves with it. Seems like some would prefer TikTok gone to deny them that choice.

Another key concern against TikTok is the fear the Chinese Communist Party could at some future point use it to distribute propaganda to Americans, so it should allegedly be denied the opportunity. The CCP tends to be viewed as 'bad.'

After all, the CCP is often thought to be an authoritarian agent that censors content its people are allowed to consume, a mindset widely despised in the U.S. on the grounds the people should be 'free.'

 

[Nuno Lopes]

TikTok is banned in China. You cannot use it in China.

MacRumors spreading misinformation again.

Douyin is the TikTok of China.

Their UI is very similar. What differs is the content as well as some other things to comply with the Chinese regulation.

How can TikTok be banned in a market if it was never marketed.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Wait a minute. You mean there is a high probability that those cringey TikTok content creator will migrate to a different platform?🤔 Ack.

Maybe. YouTube already copied the Shorts format.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

TikTok is not available in China. A similar but separate platform from TikTok owner ByteDance, called Douyin, is available instead. TikTok is only for markets outside of China while Douyin is for the Chinese market and subject to China's strict social media regulations and censorship laws.

Exactely. TikTok was never available in China so could never be banned.

It’s not uncommon for a company to sell similar products to different countries under different names with changes addressing each specific market.

Look, I haver signed in TikTok. It never appealed to me. I am not on X either. Yes I am on FB because family is and try to dodge as much as I can the … you know. Just so say, as far as I am concerned all the Social Network stuff is garbage. People do get nuts, especially those that already have narcissistic tendencies.

 

[avz]

Another key concern against TikTok is the fear the Chinese Communist Party could at some future point use it to distribute propaganda to Americans, so it should allegedly be denied the opportunity. The CCP tends to be viewed as 'bad.'

This is much more simple than this as Chinese Communist Party is actually "bends over" to the US by complying with the secondary sanctions and so on. This is viewed as weakness and an invitation to apply more pressure on China(banning TikTok etc.).

There is a deep profound meaning in: Being an enemy of the US/UK is dangerous, being a US/UK ally is lethal. The master always kills his well serving slave. The politics is very counterintuitive.

 

[platinumaqua]

If the court upholds the law, U.S. app stores will not be able to distribute the TikTok app as of January 19. TikTok users who already have the app will be able to continue using it, but it will stop functioning over time because updates won't be permitted.

This is a nothingburger if the existing app will still work

 

[JPack]

As expected, the old man blinked in this staring contest. Everyone knew it was a hyped up threat. Following through with the ban would make Democrats completely unelectable the next few years. Trump wasn't going to enforce the law anyway.

China already doubled down with legislation preventing the algorithm from being sold. Nobody was going to buy a shell of a company, especially when the algo could be used in another app. It would be like buying Apple without the silicon or iOS.

 

[drrich2]

This is viewed as weakness and an invitation to apply more pressure on China(banning TikTok etc.).

Ironically, I think this is good for China in a way; public perception.

Think about it. We often vilify Chinese censorship on the grounds the CCP censors to maintain an indoctrinated populace slave to a non-democratic autocratic government, denying the people freedom of religion (to believe as they will) and speech (to share beliefs and ideas as they will), and thus the agency to explore ideas and make their own informed decisions. Nothing must oppose Party propaganda.

So we hear FaceBook is excluded from China, and whatever you think of FaceBook, may resent barring what many would deem the liberty of ideological self-determination seen as a human right.

By comparison, in the U.S. you are free to pursue the weird (e.g.: Goth) and wrong-headed (e.g.: white supremacy, Holocaust denial).

But now, it looks like we are going to censor to deny the American people the option to access communications on a platform because our government doesn't trust how we might interpret and act on information there, however much it could in theory someday be propaganda (but isn't yet).

And to make it worse, the U.S. government meddles in social media well beyond what it's concerned China might do in the future. If you haven't gone through this (admittedly long slog of a read), it's well worthwhile.

Just read this piece. It explains everything. Totally changed my mind on this issue:

"Since 2016, the federal government has spent billions of dollars on turning the counter-disinformation complex into one of the most powerful forces in the modern world: a sprawling leviathan with tentacles reaching into both the public and private sector, which the government uses to direct a “whole of society” effort that aims to seize total control over the internet and achieve nothing less than the eradication of human error."

A Guide to Understanding the Hoax of the Century

Thirteen ways of looking at disinformation

www.tabletmag.com

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster." Friedrich Nietzsche.

We used to criticize China from the high moral ground (at least in our worldview). We're in danger of sliding into 'It takes one to know one.'

 

[drrich2]

Now that the Supreme Court has upheld the ban, and we're waiting to see what Trump might do to enable TikTok to persist (which would be an interesting 'balance of powers' issue), New York Times has an article delving into it. There's enough content that it's easy to miss some things. Here's something particularly interesting:

"Would TikTok still be accessible from an internet browser?​

No. Along with banning app store companies from hosting the app, the law applies to internet hosting companies.

Users will probably still have access to TikTok if they use a virtual private network, or VPN, which encrypts a user’s location.

The ban “might even be a major business boost for VPN providers,” Mr. Atkinson said."

Also this:

"Faced with the possible loss of TikTok, hundreds of thousands of people in the United States have downloaded Xiaohongshu, one of China’s most popular social media apps.

Also called RedNote, Xiaohongshu has been the most downloaded free app in the United States on the Apple store since Tuesday. The app lets users share short videos as well as still, text-based posts, which sometimes attract long, Reddit-like comment threads. Like TikTok, Xiaohongshu is powered by a proprietary algorithm, which recommends content targeted to keep people scrolling."

So hundreds of thousands of people are flocking to a functionally equivalent platform from another company in China where I would think the same concern exist.

PC Magazine also has an article:

Supreme Court Upholds TikTok Ban, Finds No First Amendment Violations​

One concern is all this is how nebulous claims of 'national security' are, like that's the vaguely defined 'boogeyman' to whip out and overrule objections on an issue. What are the criteria beyond 'some big shot says so?' Credible potential risks have been hypothesized, but I don't think TikTok was en route to turn the U.S. into a post-apocalyptic wasteland. From the article:

"That statute prohibits US app stores and online hosting services from transacting with TikTok, other platforms owned by its Beijing-based parent firm ByteDance, and any other platform under the control of a “foreign adversary” and deemed harmful to national security by the president."

It's interesting we basically publicly labeled China an enemy.

And what about this piece - "The law put those provisions in force 270 days after its passage, which turned out to be Jan. 19, unless ByteDance divests TikTok to a US buyer. It also allows the president to give TikTok a 90-day deadline extension if he sees such a divestiture moving along."

Why does it have to be a U.S. buyer? In theory if ByteDance were a company in France, we wouldn't have this problem - France isn't deemed a 'foreign adversary.' So why is it a problem if a company in France buys it now?

And is it not going to be a problem if someone here buys it? If Meta buys it, when FaceBook has already been criticized for acquiring Instagram, will that not be seen as a social media monopoly? If people on the Left were worried about data harvesting and propaganda of U.S. citizens via the platform, would Elon Musk buying it make them feel better? There was a time when MicroSoft seemed bent on being the lead player in anything platform or major app. category and profitable in the tech. sector - so we want them owning and running TikTok? The Dept. of Justice is already breathing down Google's neck and trying to make them divest the Chrome browser...won't it go over just swimmingly if they buy TikTok?

 

[heretiq]

As expected, the old man blinked in this staring contest. Everyone knew it was a hyped up threat. Following through with the ban would make Democrats completely unelectable the next few years. Trump wasn't going to enforce the law anyway.

China already doubled down with legislation preventing the algorithm from being sold. Nobody was going to buy a shell of a company, especially when the algo could be used in another app. It would be like buying Apple without the silicon or iOS.

Let’s not forget it was Trump who initiated the ban with an executive order in 2020. Biden is doing the smart thing in understanding the political no-win scenario presented by the unpopularity of tackling a real threat intersecting with the personal self-interest driven flip-flopping of the incoming admin that is set to take charge in 4 days. Biden wisely decided to let Trump finish what he started.

 

[avz]

Ironically, I think this is good for China in a way; public perception.

Perhaps you are referring to the Bruce Lee's wisdom: "Be water, my friend."

Russia took this idea to the extreme when we allowed CIA operatives and "advisers" pretty much write our entire 1993 Constitution.

Russia is essentially demonstrating that the underlying conceptual power of our "deep people" is much more powerful that anything that the "deep state" of the USA can ever come up with.