Tim Cook Meets EU Antitrust Chief Ahead of iPhone App Sideloading Deadline

[Timo_Existencia]

Apple have a legal duty to their consumers...

I'm an educated consumer who thinks the EU is harming consumers.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Here, try this metaphor/analogy on for size:

The EU, with the DMA, is simply continuing its long held practice of colonization.

In the past, when the EU would take over a country and its people, rather than honestly saying "we're here to take your resources" it would instead say "we're here to civilize you."

That same mentality is showing up here in this debate, and is present in the efforts of the EU.

Rather than just admit that what the EU is doing is bald protectionism, the EU and its supporters here are trying to argue that what they're really trying to do is to civilize the rest of us rubes, who they think are too dumb to understand what is really happening.

Uh hu, that’s not an analogy or a metaphor. Eu is barely 30 years old.

EU isn’t doing anything to companies who don’t sell to the EU market.

When in Rome, do as the Roman’s. Apple, Google etc are free to do whatever they want to any other marketplace outside of EUs legal jurisdiction.

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

Uh hu, that’s not an analogy or a metaphor. Eu is barely 30 years old.

EU isn’t doing anything to companies who don’t sell to the EU market.

When in Rome, do as the Roman’s. Apple, Google etc are free to do whatever they want to any other marketplace outside of EUs legal jurisdiction.

So why can’t the EU let their subjects decide if they see value in Apple and having to use the appstore?


Free market is a beautiful thing, if overall people refuse to buy Apple stuff because they don’t like not being able to side-load, Apple will change to a model allowing what the majority of potential customers want, that will sell more of their expensive hardware, or they will go out of business, pretty simple

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Rather than just admit that what the EU is doing is bald protectionism, the EU and its supporters here are trying to argue that what they're really trying to do is to civilize the rest of us rubes, who they think are too dumb to understand what is really happening.

you have failed to show this is protectionism outside of you feeling it’s unfair because US companies are targeting

Im not really into that, just historically when the state gets too much power it has never worked out well.
Soooo again with how is nordvpn spyware?

Not many spyware companies have independent audits and a Canary letter

Looking at big gov, like the EU, and big corps, it’s like picking between gas station sushi or the hot dog that’s got over 100 miles clocked on that roller heater thing

I don’t think NordVPN is spyware.

Well historically not always, if we look back we can see how oppressive corporations can be when allowed to. EU is democratically held accountable as well as strict separation of powers of the branches

I'm an educated consumer who thinks the EU is harming consumers.

You forgot the the other market participants… consumers being harmed isn’t that relevant if the market is harmed. All stakeholders are taken to consideration.

Therefore if something benefits the consumer (closed system) and largely benefits a specific company but harms the competitive potential of the market, then that’s an unwanted situation for EU.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

So why can’t the EU let their subjects decide if they see value in Apple and having to use the appstore?

1: first the EU member states and citizens have elected representatives who want this kind of legislation.
2: You Can only do that if you have the option to use alternative storefronts.

Both developers need the ability to sell their iOS apps on alternative stores. And consumers to use different storefronts to get their apps.

Something currently not possible.

Free market is a beautiful thing, if overall people refuse to buy Apple stuff because they don’t like not being able to side-load, Apple will change to a model allowing what the majority of potential customers want, that will sell more of their expensive hardware, or they will go out of business, pretty simple

Sure, but this doesn’t help undertakers. Consumers are only one of many stakeholders who’s options are hindered.

In EU iOS is a separate market, and android is a separate market that is completely separate from each other.

 

[1284814]

I'm OK with that as long as the iPhone owner bears responsibility for any adverse consequences that comes to them personally, or their iPhone, as a result.

It’s the same for pc for years and a well know fact.

 

[makitango]

Well if you didn’t hear it, yeah I have a issue with anyone who a accommodates bad regimes

Yes I do get to speak for them, I own Apple stock, they have a legal duty to their share holders (profit) not their customers


Personally I don’t care about anyone’s PR, I don’t even watch commercials and when I buy something I normally tell the sales guy he has a better chance of a sale if he says less to me

Since Apple is one of China‘s biggest external servants in screening its citizens, I recommend you take a step back in defending your knight in shining armor because that‘s an insane double standard.

I have a sweet bunch of AAPLs myself but I can distinguish between them acting in our favour and them abusing their position, which IMO and that of everyone who is suing them or reporting them seems like the majority. There are little to zero entities defending Apple and the only ones I see are forum apologists.

Also, as a person who digs tech I would assume shopping stuff online would be more attuned than going to retail hell.

Soooo again with how is nordvpn spyware?

Looking at big gov, like the EU, and big corps, it’s like picking between gas station sushi or the hot dog that’s got over 100 miles clocked on that roller heater thing

How many „e“s in my yeeeees do you need to find the sarcasm spot? NordVPN has only full feature parity when using the sideloaded client because the App Store version - big surprise - is crippled enough to lack fundamental safety features. Your glorified omni-protective safeguard.

Also, talking about big gov and corporations, pointing at EU while favoring the US is, I am sorry, a big joke. We have comic characters for this kind of stuff.

So why can’t the EU let their subjects decide if they see value in Apple and having to use the appstore?

So if their „subjects“ (you know that basically completely takes off all sincerity off your arguments?) would see value in gladiator fights, should we embrace them also?

We have laws for a reason, and amongst those reasons is the one most important one that we do not harm one another even if the majority is okay with it. Unless you have a weird wish that history needs to repeat itself more than it already does.

 

[makitango]

It’s the same for pc for years and a well know fact.

Plus, if we install malware or modify the OS, we don‘t lose warranty for hardware.
Apple tried to force that onto customers until the law knocked on Apple‘s door.

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

Since Apple is one of China‘s biggest external servants in screening its citizens, I recommend you take a step back in defending your knight in shining armor because that‘s an insane double standard.

I have a sweet bunch of AAPLs myself but I can distinguish between them acting in our favour and them abusing their position, which IMO and that of everyone who is suing them or reporting them seems like the majority. There are little to zero entities defending Apple and the only ones I see are forum apologists.

Also, as a person who digs tech I would assume shopping stuff online would be more attuned than going to retail hell.

How many „e“s in my yeeeees do you need to find the sarcasm spot? NordVPN has only full feature parity when using the sideloaded client because the App Store version - big surprise - is crippled enough to lack fundamental safety features. Your glorified omni-protective safeguard.

Also, talking about big gov and corporations, pointing at EU while favoring the US is, I am sorry, a big joke. We have comic characters for this kind of stuff.

So if their „subjects“ (you know that basically completely takes off all sincerity off your arguments?) would see value in gladiator fights, should we embrace them also?

We have laws for a reason, and amongst those reasons is the one most important one that we do not harm one another even if the majority is okay with it. Unless you have a weird wish that history needs to repeat itself more than it already does.

I’m not rooting for Apple as much as the freemarket, they should have told china AND the EU to go away in my ideal world, but hey

So what security issue does nord have?


Laws are good guidance, they help good neighbors be good neighbors and help everyone play by the same sheet of music, but they do nothing to help with the real bad guys, same reasons the places with the most laws are not the safest places when it comes to the real bad guys

"If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC


The common criminals body count is laughable compared to that of democide, same with corporations, sure they start some small scale wars from time to time but still nothing compared to when a large goverment turns to democide, which is sadly VERY common


So being the internet age, and with that being one of the great liberators and saving graces of today, I think it’s best to keep large governments as far away from being able to meddle with it as possible, I think large governments very much fear the average man having tools like instant communication and encryption, let alone the level of knowledge one can pull from their pocket with a smart phone


I’ll give the EU a overreaching and historically foolish benefit of the doubt and say the state rulers “heart is in the right place”, however this is a tent that species of camel should not be allowed to get its nose under

 

[CarAnalogy]

It is not just the apps that cause the lock in.

Lets go down Apple services, iCloud photos (lock to app and hamstrung on non apple)
Airplay only works with Apple devices that can cast to them. I do not even believe the Apple TV supports chrome cast.
iCloud as a whole hardly works on non Apple devices.
Apple speakers again hardly work if no Apple device to cast with them.
Sign in with Apple is heavily limited to only iOS device for the most part but is more on Apple SSO being garbage to set up and by far the hardest to get to work and test. It is only a think because Apple demands it for the App store other wise most places would dump it because the dev hate getting it to work.

That is just a subset. It is not just the Apps but the entire eco system. Compare this to Google it has zero issue jump across boundaries and pretty much everything works just as well on an Apple base network as it does an Android based system.

The cost to leave Android minor the cost to leave Apple is very high and harder to do. Hell Android makes it pretty easy to move everything over with the Account. This is a far cry from Apple where it takes some real effort to migrate things over.

You make some good points. Without an Apple device it’s essentially impossible to get large amounts of data out.

I used Takeout to download all my Google Photos library and imported it into iCloud. Now I’m wondering what it would take to get that photo library out. Pretty sure though it’s just a matter of picking a disk with enough space, telling Photos to store the library there, and then telling it to download everything.

Requires an Apple device and I don’t think Apple has anything like Takeout.


HOWEVER, there is a distinct advantage. You say there is no issue with Google crossing over. Well, no issue except all the issues. Apple isn’t perfect but if you do stay in the ecosystem it damn well works the vast majority of the time. Google and companies that use their software tend to be very scattershot in their support of everything from hardware to updates to features coming and going.

No one who really is determined is really locked in, there are distinct advantages to each platform, and I’m glad there is a choice. I will say Apple has abused their position a bit and I wish they would change on their own without being forced.

 

[CarAnalogy]

I’m not rooting for Apple as much as the freemarket, they should have told china AND the EU to go away in my ideal world, but hey

So what security issue does nord have?


Laws are good guidance, they help good neighbors be good neighbors and help everyone play by the same sheet of music, but they do nothing to help with the real bad guys, same reasons the places with the most laws are not the safest places when it comes to the real bad guys

"If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC


The common criminals body count is laughable compared to that of democide, same with corporations, sure they start some small scale wars from time to time but still nothing compared to when a large goverment turns to democide, which is sadly VERY common


So being the internet age, and with that being one of the great liberators and saving graces of today, I think it’s best to keep large governments as far away from being able to meddle with it as possible, I think large governments very much fear the average man having tools like instant communication and encryption, let alone the level of knowledge one can pull from their pocket with a smart phone


I’ll give the EU a overreaching and historically foolish benefit of the doubt and say the state rulers “heart is in the right place”, however this is a tent that species of camel should not be allowed to get its nose under

Cooper quotes always get my upvote.

I think there’s an opportunity for good balance here. As other posters have said, America innovates and the EU regulates. And that doesn’t sound that bad, let each stick to what they are best at and work together a little, or at least keep a HEALTHY competition.

 

[makitango]

Cooper quotes always get my upvote.

I think there’s an opportunity for good balance here. As other posters have said, America innovates and the EU regulates. And that doesn’t sound that bad, let each stick to what they are best at and work together a little, or at least keep a HEALTHY competition.

America, as in the industry, innovates and the EU, as in the parliament, regulates? Does the US political system innovate, too? Man, that is such a queer comparison.
On top of that, let‘s not forget the dictionary definition for innovation. If you call the Apple headset or the 15th iteration of the same „we made the best iPhone yet“ innovation, I‘m not sure what to say. The last true innovation I remember from Apple was its CPU, which is based on the blueprint of an Arm license and engineered by TSMC in Taiwan, and manufactured in China.

Apple has zero to offer in the nm breakthrough process.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

America, as in the industry, innovates and the EU, as in the parliament, regulates? Does the US political system innovate, too? Man, that is such a queer comparison.
On top of that, let‘s not forget the dictionary definition for innovation. If you call the Apple headset or the 15th iteration of the same „we made the best iPhone yet“ innovation, I‘m not sure what to say. The last true innovation I remember from Apple was its CPU, which is based on the blueprint of an Arm license and engineered by TSMC in Taiwan, and manufactured in China.

Apple has zero to offer in the nm breakthrough process.

Yep as those chips are manufactured with EU manufactured machinery and EU based innovation in the lithography industry.

EU innovates in technology and manufacturing while America uses it in consumer goods and innovates how to combine that

 

[Jim Lahey]

Because the encryption issue isn’t getting passed...

Are we sure about that though? UK's Online Safety Act already has designs on device-side pre-encryption scanning of private message content, and I can't imagine the EU aren't also salivating at the prospect of that opportunity. Will Apple comply? Have they already? Questions we don't, and probably never will, know the answer to, but notification metadata and CSAM image scanning just called...they want their privacy back.

 

[AppliedMicro]

It makes tons if sense if you look at the history, just over the last few decades of the these state actors

Allowing random software to be installed to be installed weakens stuff

Only signed software can be installed on iPhones. Sideloading may - and probably will - require the customer to trust the developer. of that „random software“. Such as it does with enterprise certificates today. There’s little need to up anything else or change much else.

Apple telling the FBI to kick rocks when asking about back doors set them apart,

They may have with regards to backdooring the unlock process.
This has nothing to do with sideloading.
And you can bet that the government - including the FBI - has access to enterprise certificates today, that allow them to install custom software.

Enterprise certs you have to get permission for and Apple has to agree your reasoning is valid. I semi regularly have to get in to debates with Apple justifying my enterprise certs. Plus enterprise certs on the day the expire or are regenerated which invalidated older certs all build made with those cert immediately stop working and have to be rebuilt and installed.

…so from a technical view, it is just like every other certificate then.

And even if you violate their terms, they‘re quick to restore your enterprise certificate - if only you‘re big engough a company: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...ards-for-root-level-access-to-ios-users-data/

Are you really arguing developer certs and enterprise certs say you allow side loading?

Yes - because the frequently cited „argument“ from the proponents of the walled goes like this:

„Oh no, if they allow sideloading, they will have to change iOS so much. Imagine how many security holes it could open“

👉🏻 They don‘t. The argument is completely unfounded from a technological perspective.

 

[AppliedMicro]

So why can’t the EU let their subjects decide if they see value in Apple and having to use the appstore?

They soon will be able to decide: Do I see value in the App Store - or do I download elsewhere?

As you said:

Free market is a beautiful thing

There are markets for phones / mobile operating systems and there are markets for software downloads/distribution.

Once I have made the decision to buy an iPhone, my hands in the third-party software market are tied: I as a consumer am practically forced to use Apple‘s App Store - and so is a developer that wants to offer apps for Apple’s phone and O.S.

The E.U. is untying these markets. Which will finally will provide Apple‘s customers with the beautiful thing of a free software market.

 

[Sebalto]

If the product does not meet the legal requirements he doesn‘t have to do sh**. Here in the EU, there is a limit as to how much a company is allowed to abuse its customers. If you enjoy being treated like that, continue to do so, but not everyone has to let themselves be treated like a child and this is one less f***up we have to deal with over here.

Also not sure where you get your 0.003% but just know that jailbreaking was a huge pita and torpedoed by Apple, and it was a cat and mouse game. People were not willing to keep up with that all the time.
If you wanna see real sideloading stats, go look at macOS and ask Apple how manx people sideload. Oh, right, you don‘t like those numbers.

Company A makes a product which has feature X and Company B's product has feature X & Y. Company A outsells B which indicates that feature Y is inconsequential in terms of importance to the consumer. This isn't "abuse" in any stretch of the definition. One question - if you claim you are being treated "like a child" (histrionics on your part aside) why on earth did you buy an iPhone (assuming you own one) and not a phone where you were treated "like an adult"?

Why are you bringing a desktop OS into this? Im talking about sideloading on a phone, not a desktop machine. The majority of people do not use their phone like a computer, so the point is moot.

The amount of people with jailbroken phones is tiny - no more than the figure I quoted. This is the issue - techies appear to assume that their use case of a product is the norm. It isnt.

 

[1129846]

Company A makes a product which has feature X and Company B's product has feature X & Y. Company A outsells B which indicates that feature Y is inconsequential in terms of importance to the consumer. This isn't "abuse" in any stretch of the definition. One question - if you claim you are being treated "like a child" (histrionics on your part aside) why on earth did you buy an iPhone (assuming you own one) and not a phone where you were treated "like an adult"?

Why are you bringing a desktop OS into this? Im talking about sideloading on a phone, not a desktop machine. The majority of people do not use their phone like a computer, so the point is moot.

The amount of people with jailbroken phones is tiny - no more than the figure I quoted. This is the issue - techies appear to assume that their use case of a product is the norm. It isnt.

And in this case it does not apply. Android offers side loading but does not offer a lot of other features that Apple offers.

There are quite a few other things iPhone offer that you can not get elsewhere and instead you have to pay the price.

You example would be company A offers a product with X and Y. company B offers a product with X and Z. Yet more people buy company A.

Now tell me is it because Y is not important or is it because Z is really important.

 

[I7guy]

[…]

The E.U. is untying these markets. Which will finally will provide Apple‘s customers with the beautiful thing of a free software market.

It’s not beautiful. Free market by government regulation is an illusion.

 

[Ethosik]

Thank you for showing and proving how little you understand about software development.

The issue with Apple review process is critical bug fixes can not get out quickly. There is no such thing as emergency deployment which is common.
Major security issue found guess what takes a lot longer to get a patch out.

If you think massive testing internally will find everything that is laughable. I get more useful information in the first day after release than I would get in months of testing. Raw numbers makes a huge difference and until it is out in the wild a lot of things are not spotted big time if the crash only happens 0.1% of the time that means you don’t know if it’s a false positive worth fixing if you find it in testing or how to repeat it. With out knowing how to repeat it then even harder to fix. Hence crash logs help out a lot to give a clue and say if a crash is a priority. I will not fix a crash that happens in 1 in a million uses but will fix one that is 0.2%. It all about how bad is it.

That or say it spiking pause a roll out.

Apple makes it even worse as no way for me to roll back a release to a previously approved one.


That and months of review never going to catch big ones as easy to get around reviewers. You push for months of review you can kiss the App Store goodbye as developers will say f it. The investment cost goes to high as they would just go to the web.

Apple review times are still to long.

You are just constantly condescending towards anyone. You have repeatedly talked down to me in many topics. I have been a senior dev for 30 years. Cut the damn attitude of “you know very little of software development”

The review process is too quick to vet applications correctly. I have confirmed this from my own app. Therefore to make the gatekeeping process better the review process needs to be longer. Not abolish it entirely which means there is ZERO app vetting process. That won’t make malicious apps less common. An open iOS will make bad apps MORE common.

 

[Ethosik]

The "logical conclusion" is that Apple shouldn't have sole responsibility for app installations.

Could you prove how this actually improves security. Demolishing the gatekeeper and having iOS more open does not improve security. Only tightening the gate does.

 

[makitango]

I'm an educated consumer who thinks the EU is harming consumers.

You say that you are one, but that doesn‘t make you one. If I bully someone and get to be the one deciding if I were a bully, would I say so?

Truth is, us Europeans voted for this through our representatives, and it is what we want. Doesn‘t matter what someone from another market thinks.

It’s not beautiful. Free market by government regulation is an illusion.

Every market is regulated.

You are just constantly condescending towards anyone. You have repeatedly talked down to me in many topics. I have been a senior dev for 30 years. Cut the damn attitude of “you know very little of software development”

The review process is too quick to vet applications correctly. I have confirmed this from my own app. Therefore to make the gatekeeping process better the review process needs to be longer. Not abolish it entirely which means there is ZERO app vetting process. That won’t make malicious apps less common. An open iOS will make bad apps MORE common.

It takes little knowledge to understand how to secure an operating system. It is not by curating a monopolistic storefront, it is by fixing the OS. Let‘s see how well Apple fared in that arena.

 

[Sebalto]

And in this case it does not apply. Android offers side loading but does not offer a lot of other features that Apple offers.

There are quite a few other things iPhone offer that you can not get elsewhere and instead you have to pay the price.

You example would be company A offers a product with X and Y. company B offers a product with X and Z. Yet more people buy company A.

Now tell me is it because Y is not important or is it because Z is really important.

What are a "lot of other features" that Apple offers over Android, aside from ecosystem?

My example could consider any combination of features, but we are discussing sideloading and the erroneous claims made that Apple enjoys a monopoly on the phone market (despite its EU market share only being c30%).

The onus is on the consumer to assess their subjective requirements and to purchase goods accordingly to meet these needs - the fact that there already exists on the market a smartphone OS utilised by many vendors (which caters those who want to sideload) renders the EU's decision to go after Apple puzzling to say the least.

If app devs do not like the terms and conditions of the App Store nobody is forcing them to use it.

 

[Sebalto]

Truth is, us Europeans voted for this through our representatives, and it is what we want. Doesn‘t matter what someone from another market thinks.

Stop conflating the EU and Europe. The two are not synonymous.

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

They soon will be able to decide: Do I see value in the App Store - or do I download elsewhere?

As you said:

There are markets for phones / mobile operating systems and there are markets for software downloads/distribution.

Once I have made the decision to buy an iPhone, my hands in the third-party software market are tied: I as a consumer am practically forced to use Apple‘s App Store - and so is a developer that wants to offer apps for Apple’s phone and O.S.

The E.U. is untying these markets. Which will finally will provide Apple‘s customers with the beautiful thing of a free software market.

I simply don’t trust the motives of the EU rulers, seems the same folks had a fit over apples encryption too